shippingsteel Posted 3 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 September , 2011 One I might actually be able to get for a change - given the inter-war refurbishment date stamp for 1931, if it was a genuine hookie it should have had the hooked quillion removed at the same time to bring it into line. Combined with what looks like a reblued or otherwise refinished quillion (to help hide possible weld/grinding/etc marks), I would guess this is an original bayonet that has been "hooked" to add value and fool the unwary. It would certainly seem that way - but don't bet on 'picking it up for a song' anytime soon - plenty of people around that are all too willing to fork over good money for these. The bayonet itself is a really nice pre-war example made by Enfield and the stamped markings are all very genuine. Its just the quillon part that looks to be very out of place. The comparison between the blued areas is quite telling (I have manipulated the photo to bring this out) also the wear seen on the main wearing surfaces does not match up. Another thing that I look for is the 'fit' between the grips and the quillon. An original piece that has not been refurbed will look to fit like a glove with any small gaps filled smooth. I personally agree with your assessment, and feel its a fairly blatant attempt to relieve an unwary newcomer of some considerable funds. I think it's only going to happen more. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 3 September , 2011 Share Posted 3 September , 2011 Back to Eid preparations (with beer in hand as i am a gavur!) Trajan EDIT: For those who don't know. 'Eid' = end of Ramadan (= party time - starts tonight in Turkey!; 'gavur' = infidel, meaning a non-believer in Islam, from which comes 'kaffir' in Afrikaans, etc. Time for a couple of my hallmark OT sortees (I know "beans" about bayonets, except that my father's unit had no use for them, nor for rifles, either.). I attended an Eid al-Fitr Thursday, about 4000 people there, my Muslim Marine friend Wayne invited me, he probably has had a role in founding about 10 mosques in Philadelphia in the last 15 years. Can I assume that 'gavur" is Turkish, or Arabic, or, as with many religeous terms in Turkey, both? (Always seize the opportunity to learn another word.) About your beer; asking about the drinking I was noticing in Turkey (not much), I asked a Turk; he wisely responded: "The Prophet (Blessed be His Name) never mentioned single-malt Scotch!" Next to last time I was in Turkey it was Ramadan, it was unusually "dry". I recently took a small position in the common stock of Efes (probably the most popular Turkish beer), my wise wife expressed skepticism, as Turkey seems to be becoming a bit more traditional, to simplify horribly. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 3 September , 2011 Share Posted 3 September , 2011 It would certainly seem that way - but don't bet on 'picking it up for a song' anytime soon - plenty of people around that are all too willing to fork over good money for these. Quite, and not just for "hooky hookies" - have a look at the thread on jerkins in "Uniforms & Cap Badges" for some classic examples in other fields... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 September , 2011 Share Posted 3 September , 2011 S>S, thanks for posting that dubious hookie. If I ever saw a hookie with a re-issue date post 1913 then I would have paused for thought - but this one looks so good that I would have concluded that the hook could just posibly have been overlooked at the time of re-issue. Your remark about the 'blueing' of the crossguard probably being to conceal the truth of the matter is a good one and that, plus your observation about the fit of the grips, has shown me what to look for if I ever see one over here. Mind you, it might just be worthwhile getting a friendly dentist to X-ray that putative weld on that '31 re-issue! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2011 Quite, and not just for "hooky hookies" - have a look at the thread on jerkins in "Uniforms & Cap Badges" for some classic examples in other fields... Thats right Andrew, the more you look around the more you realise how widespread this problem of reproductions and fakes is amongst the GW collectables. For myself I have recently been delving around the edges of my main collecting interest, and branching into the area of ammunition pouches, bandoliers and belts. Everywhere you look when undertaking a bit of research is just full of the reproduction stuff. Luckily I have been dealing with long-time collectors that are trustworthy. It just reinforces the fact that collectors need to share their knowledge and point out the many pitfalls. It also highlights the great service that this forum can provide. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2011 Here is the latest update for the 'bayonet spotters'. So which maker and model of bayonet do we have here.? "Not what it seems, but was made in year '16".! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 September , 2011 Share Posted 4 September , 2011 If it is 'not what it seems' but those look like Enfield marks, is it a P1913? Vickers?... Standing ready to be scolded... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 4 September , 2011 Share Posted 4 September , 2011 Looks like the letter A under the stamps which would indicate American made, Im going to say Remington P13 by the shape of the curve edge at the top of ricasso. Just a guess though Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 September , 2011 Share Posted 4 September , 2011 Good one Gaz, hadn't thought of that - that the terminal letter might be an A for America. Just assumed in my inexperience that all of these letters were 'official' letters of one kind or another and that the crown and numbers/letters indicated official manufacture - but of course, they are official inspection MARKS. And I can see how it might follow - my Wilkinson P1888 has a W at the end of the inspector's mark and my Enfield has an E. My Sanderson P1907 has an S under two inspection marks and an E under a third- but it was re-issued in '24, and I think I read somewhere that a B indicates Brummagen. In my anorakaish mode, is there a listing anywhere of inspector's marks? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2011 You're on the right track, it is an American made P1913 as indicated by the A letter inspection mark, and the extended crossguard with the more offset muzzle-ring. In the earlier days the inspectors were 'based' at the local manufacturers so the letter code did usually follow the name of the manufacturer, so letter W for Wilkinson etc. By the time of the GW the manufacturing of bayonets had perhaps become more 'centralised' and the inspectors mostly Enfield 'based', making the E code more dominant. THIS is a very handy website for identifying most of the common markings that you are bound to find on the British & Commonwealth bayonets (but like most its not perfect). Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godwinson Posted 5 September , 2011 Share Posted 5 September , 2011 Looks like that hookie has just gone for $1,026 US! Quite, and not just for "hooky hookies" - have a look at the thread on jerkins in "Uniforms & Cap Badges" for some classic examples in other fields... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Here is another view of that question bayonet - just in case you need a hand.? If you ever happen to see one of these you should grab it, as they are hard to find. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Next lot of P1888 markings- 2.P.S.R.F. A possible clue to what this '2.P.S.R.F.' marking might relate to (following on from a suggestion in a post by S>S(?))... This web-page http://www.wakefield...revations.shtml has the following entry: 'PS.: Public Schools number prefix to the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st Bns Royal Fusiliers and 16th Bn Middlesex Regt (Public Schools Battalions)". Well, the PSRF will certainly fit with the 'Public Schools (Battalion) Royal Fusiliers', but the number '2' at the start doesnt' fit... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Sawdoc, I may have got it... According to (of all places to find it - via a ref in Wikki under 'Public Schools Battalions!), 'The Long, Long Trail', under Royal Fusiliers (http://www.1914-1918.net/royalfus.htm), there is the following: "19th (Service) Battalion (2nd Public Schools) Formed at Epsom on 11 September 1914 by the Public Schools and University Mens Force. 26 June 1915 : attached to 98th Brigade, 33rd Division. Landed in France in November 1915. 27 February 1916 : transferred to GHQ; disbanded on 24 April 1916 with many of the men being commissioned as officers." So, how's about '2.P.S.R.F.' being the unit mark for the very same i.e., 2nd Public Schools Royal Fusiliers?! The date the unit was formed could/would explain why it was issued with P1888's. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Its appears to be British style marked Winchester P13 bayonet, Im not really sure what else Im looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 September , 2011 Looks like the letter A under the stamps which would indicate American made, Im going to say Remington P13 by the shape of the curve edge at the top of ricasso. Just a guess though Actually Gaz, the shape of the fuller and the "curve edge" runout at the top of the ricasso, are a good indicator of this being a Winchester P1913, as you can now see.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 September , 2011 So, how's about '2.P.S.R.F.' being the unit mark for the very same i.e., 2nd Public Schools Royal Fusiliers?! You've done some good detective work there Trajan and I think you just might have it actually - but our good mate Sawdoc don't seem to be around though.? If it is correct it would be another example of markings being stamped that don't really follow the accepted governing regulations that were in force at the time. Which does make sense, because the markings were usually applied by the unit armourers, and done in the manner in which the unit itself wanted to be known. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 September , 2011 Share Posted 7 September , 2011 You've done some good detective work there Trajan and I think you just might have it actually - but our good mate Sawdoc don't seem to be around though.? If it is correct it would be another example of markings being stamped that don't really follow the accepted governing regulations that were in force at the time. Which does make sense, because the markings were usually applied by the unit armourers, and done in the manner in which the unit itself wanted to be known Cheers, S>S [stress added]. Thanks! I chanced upon a reference in another forum which reminded me of the 2PSRF mark and which inspired further searching which got me through (eventually) to the link on 'The Long, Long Trail'. As for this being a 'non-regulation' marking, well, certainly in this case I can quite see that the toffs in the "19th (Service) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers" would prefer to be known to all and sundry as the "2nd Public Schools RF", and so have their kit marked accordingly... But can't help thinking - where are the possibly as many as another 999 or so bayonets their armourer(s) potentially marked?! Trajan PS: I have PM'd Sawdoc with the news but haven't heard back from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 7 September , 2011 Share Posted 7 September , 2011 Trajan, you are a star my friend. Bloody fantastic work mate, been on ages trying to find out, I owe you a few pints for that if I ever get over to Turkey. Sorry it has took so long to reply, looks like I have missed some interesting stuff on the forums but have been away working down south & just got back, only to get a call asking me to be in Edinburgh for 8pm this evening , so will be a flying visit but should be back for saturday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 September , 2011 Share Posted 7 September , 2011 Good to see you are back on-line. I suspected work was demanding. Well, of course cannot be 100% on that 2PSRF identification, but hey, if S>S finds it agreeable, then smiley time (MODERATORS - where is the champagne 'smiley'?). As for a shared couple of 75cl. glasses of Efes in Turkey I'd rather have a pint (or several?!) of Marston's or Bass in Durham (might be up'road in Newkie in October). Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 September , 2011 This is probably one of the more unusual bayonets in my collection and is certainly not without its fair share of history, but much of that is still only speculation of course. So here is the pic - lets see what we can make of it.? (Its inclusion here was prompted by a reference to a possibly similar bayonet marking discussed in another thread.) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 September , 2011 Share Posted 8 September , 2011 I'll give it a go... Ok, Broad Arrow over a mark I have never seen before, but the 'A' underneath indicates 'America'? So a P1913??? The R on the right is for 'refurbished' (less likely to be for 'reissued', I have just realised), and its position matches the Enfield stamp on the other side, so refurbished at Enfield and/or checked by an Enfield Inspector after refurbishing elsewhere? The " '18" is the year it was refurbished. Then two bend marks? One for original manufacture, t'other after refurbishment? I'm probably wrong on some counts - but this is the way to learn! Cheers, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 September , 2011 You get extra points for trying Trajan, which makes up for any mistakes.! You're pretty close actually, except its a P1907 made in America, not a P1913 (check muzzle-ring.??) The broad arrow says its British, the crown/1/A says its been inspected in America (so it must be Remington made) then an Enfield inspection, an '18 reissue and the R mark. So it's a Remington P1907 which is not that unusual, however the R marking is quite 'mysterious and unexplained', as there is no reference to it ever being a British marking.? I have seen it on quite a few examples and it always appears to occur in conjunction with the '18 reissue mark - so what went on in 1918 that would have led to this being done.? Apparently the Australian Corps in F/F operated with attached mobile workshops under British supervision, up until the latter half of 1918 when it came under full Australian control. My theory is that the R marking indicates refurbishment that was done in the field by Australian armourers, as the R is a well known Australian marking usually seen in later periods. See the photo posted on Page 1, post #21 for an example of this on an Australian bayonet. That's one reason why this bayonet is 'special' - British, American & Aussie all at once.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 September , 2011 Share Posted 9 September , 2011 ... the R marking is quite 'mysterious and unexplained' ... See the photo posted on Page 1, post #21 for an example... Cheers, S>S Man with parrot on shoulder, eye patch and wooden leg: "Arrrrrrrr, Shipping Steel lad, I seez what y'mean now"...!!! Seriously, thanks again for another fascinating set of bayonet markings, guides to identification, and explanations! Incidentally, there is a P1907 that sounds rather similar to this one mentioned in the Militaria Displayed thread - I have added my happenworth to that with a post that gives a cross-reference to this thread and your photo and comments. Cheers, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 September , 2011 This is another of my favourite bayonets, crafted with such skill and workmanship. So which century are we talking, which decade was it made, and did they see use in the GW.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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