trajan Posted 9 September , 2011 Share Posted 9 September , 2011 My immediate reaction was 'European, mid-late 19th century (i.e.,1850's-1880's), grooved handle (= Germanic?), could be in use by reserve troops in WW1?'. I might have to cheat on this one - i.e., look around... Is that permissable? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 9 September , 2011 Share Posted 9 September , 2011 19th Century, 1870's and yes it was used in WW1. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 September , 2011 Yes you're both totally correct. While the Gewehr 71 was declared obsolete in the mid 1880's, the M1871 bayonet made a reappearance when the Gew88 was introduced. It then went on to see service in the early part of the war with second-line and reserve regiments, before many of these bayonets became recycled for their brass handles. Its quite easy to see from the high standard of workmanship that the famous cutlers and sword-makers of Solingen were right at the fore when it came to producing these. You'll have to bear with me while I add another photo of this one in all its glory.! I think its just the classicly designed early bayonet - still looking this good after 135 years.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 10 September , 2011 Share Posted 10 September , 2011 They are fine bayonets, I've seen one S71 for sale with scabbard locally and its out of my price range at the moment. I've noticed the quality of early 20th and late 19th century bayonets to be much better than anything else. My 1866 chassepot bayonet or Gras 1874 is made to a great standard, my 1918 Wilkinson p07 bayonet isn't. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 10 September , 2011 The late war production of the P1907's are really quite poor quality - particularly the Wilkinson and Sandersons which were churned out in vast numbers towards the end. It must be remembered that by then the majority of the skilled tradesman at these firms had left the job and enlisted or been otherwise called up for service by conscription. It was then left largely to unskilled labourers to fill the void, including many young girls and women that were employed in these firms, which had to do the best they could. The difference in quality between a pre-war P1907 bayonet and a late-war example is quite noticeable. But the Solingen cutlers were in a field of their own - absolutely superb.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 September , 2011 Share Posted 26 September , 2011 Did anyone in the bayonet fraternity see this one - http://www.ebay.com/...s-/370536402245 I have only just seen it. Comments please...!!! Trajan EDIT: I should add that even I, a tyro, find it just a little bit funny. But I could be wrong!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 September , 2011 Share Posted 26 September , 2011 And here's another possible funny one - http://www.ebay.ca/i...T-/350421029036 Check the crown and the X mark. My knowledge of these P1903 bayonets is rather limited - as is my knowledge on P1888's as in my last post - but it would be nice to have comments on this one also. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2011 Trajan, it depends on what you want to know about them - I think they are both fair and were in original condition .... once.! Both have seen quite a lot of work. The first is a P1888 conversion with a GW reissue date that's been reblued over the ricasso, the second has 'new' grips and a replacement P1907 release catch. I think the markings are right on both bayonets but they do appear very worn from use, the photo angles can also be deceptive. ENGLAND stamp is US import mark. BTW I've just been to a show where I got to see some very uncommon P1888 variations, also managed to squeeze in a fairly nice acquisition with a matching scabbard. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 September , 2011 Share Posted 27 September , 2011 Thanks S>S! I though that the patina on both was ok, but I was wondering about their marks. For example, I thought that the pattern year stamp on the first 1903 looked a bit dodgy, and I did wonder about the grips and the release catch on the second. But you have cleared that up! Thanks again - and congrats on the 'new' P1888, which I (and doubtless others) look forward to seeing. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 27 September , 2011 Share Posted 27 September , 2011 I am a fevered collector, but mostly information (like books, documents, usw.), not "things", like bayonets. But I have followed this thread with interest, and find the bayonet collecting increasingly interesting (but not to the point of actually buying some!). What it is beginning to remind me of, is a former passion, collecting Roman coins, which I did feverishly in the 1980's, before an employment change reduced my idle cash. (Still have about 300 in a vault somewhere, haven't seen them for over 20 years, as I have misplaced my key.) A great variety of collectable material, infinite variations, close connection with military and general history, other similarities. "Trajan", I want to see your paper on the Roman Camel Corps when it is finished! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 September , 2011 Share Posted 27 September , 2011 Hi Bob, All collecting is fun, for you the written record, for me bayonets, and all us collectors get great pleasure in learning from what we collect, and then spreading the information we have to others! And I would love to see a catalogue of your coins (find that key!), but don't be too surprised to discover that bayonets, especially WW1 era examples, have appreciated in value more that the coins on a year-by-year basis - and will do so even more as 2014 approaches! As for this thread, as you have probably realised it is a great learning experience, with more factual data than I have seen in many a book on bayonets - thanks especially to our Antipodean member S>S Best wishes, Trajan PS: I'll send a copy of the paper on the ala dromedariorum when it comes out! EDIT: just realised that the phrase 'our Antipodean member' might be misconstrued, so a rephrase is necessary - 'our Antipodean GWF member' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 27 September , 2011 Share Posted 27 September , 2011 I think that the coins have appreciated little over the last 30+ years, but I do view them as a very reliable "storehouse of value". The Emperor Augustus collected them avidly, they were collected in the Renaissance, and are collected today. I have about seven pieces of Roman gold, incidentally about 99% pure, and if we reverted to the Stone Age they would have considerable and widely accepted value. I think that the Roman gold has appreciated well. The metal detector is probably bringing a lot more Roman coins on the market. My sense is that WW I militaria, including books, seems to be up in value by at least 100% since 2000. I feel that if you are a serious collector, one should have a bit of an eye on your hobby as an investment, as well as a past-time. Just popped in my mind, a friend of my wife, an American priest and scholar, met another priest at the Vatican, and they chatted in Latin for a day before he discovered that the other priest was also an Ameruican. I have heard that English Latin is uniquely screwy, but my authority is "Patrick O'Brian" (the late German author), so I am not 100% sure. I have almost no Latin, although my father taught me a bit when I was young; Megan has fairly good Latin. Very interested in your paper. Funny story about the first Turkish Roman coin that I ever read, but I have been OT long enough in this post. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2011 And while we are on the topic of coins ... (uh, somehow ) ... I may as well take this opportunity to share some more 'finds' from the show. My son was with me going through the junk boxes, and he was interested in getting some old pennies, so I gently steered him a little my way.! Just something of minor interest that I will use in a display somewhere. Does make you think of some brave men who once might have carried these ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 September , 2011 Share Posted 28 September , 2011 Thanks for sharing that S>S, I'm not a coin (or a cartidge or bandolier!) collector, but insights like this make me more aware of what is what when I visit the local antika pazar! Trajan PS: My 'big' (4.5 years old) son actually wanted to see some of my bayonets two nights ago... Some hope there?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 28 September , 2011 Share Posted 28 September , 2011 Here goes. Maybe I can claim it as a description of trying to decypher obscure markings. I got my first "Greek Imperial" (the name should have been a clue), of a city-state in Anatolia that was occupied by the Romans; the obverse had to have the face of the emperor, and his attributes, but the reverse had a theme of the locals; might be the 20-breasted goddess of Ephesus, or a plan or model of the city, etc. It is often hard to figure out Roman coin inscriptions, the Latin is Eccelastical Latin, highly abbreviated, but no puncuation, and little spacing between different abbreviated words; they are all run together; especially if the coin is also worn, often hard to read. Well, I worked on this coin for three months (hardly full-time), before I finally realized that I was trying to translate Greek, but written with Roman letters, into English, using my very weak Latin-English skills. A couple of years later a friend showed me a coin that her departed husband had left in her basement, and asked what it was; I glanced at it for about three seconds, and said: "Oh, that's a tetradrachma of Alexandria, from 283-84 AD."; my knowledge of Greek Imperials had advanced a bit over the previous 2-3 years. Same satisfaction as glancing at a bayonet and saying that it was made in the US by Remington for a certain rifle, inspected in the UK, and carried by an Aussie in 1918. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 29 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2011 A couple of years later a friend showed me a coin that her departed husband had left in her basement, and asked what it was; I glanced at it for about three seconds, and said: "Oh, that's a tetradrachma of Alexandria, from 283-84 AD."; my knowledge of Greek Imperials had advanced a bit over the previous 2-3 years. Same satisfaction as glancing at a bayonet and saying that it was made in the US by Remington for a certain rifle, inspected in the UK, and carried by an Aussie in 1918. I think Bob is right about the enjoyment that can be gained from collecting. Its not always just about the object itself but also the history surrounding the item which can appeal. Its when you are able to investigate the history of an item that makes any form of collecting truly fascinating. When it comes to bayonets the special markings are the key to this. Anyway enough with coins ... I'm going to have to get us back on topic with another bayonet posting ... sorry about that.! This comes from a very special part of the collection.! I've had this one for a while and these photos are from when I first found it - coming out of "storage" still covered in gunk, grime and several layers of grease (mainly cosmolene.?) Feel free to pass any comments or 'observations' whenever you like, from what can be seen in the pics. I will post some additional photos as we go further along. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 September , 2011 Share Posted 29 September , 2011 OK, let's go through this slowly (the nippers aren't home yet!) with enlarged photos... The date stamp is not that clear but it is either 10 '13 or 10 '15 - 10 '13 is more likely as the downstroke at the start of the second year number shows no signs of extending into the curve of a 15. So, October 1913. In which case probably / perhaps one of the last hookies to be made, as hooks were dropped after 29th October 1913 (confession, had to look up the exact day and month...) . And of course Wilkinson made.. Photo 2 shows two Enfield inspector stamps, so the old practice of Wilkinson inspecting their own blades (as on P1888's) has gone. Photo 3 shows no clearance hole in the pommel, and as these were introduced to the P1907 in 1916, that gives what we archaeologists call a terminus ante quem - the latest date it could have been made. So, I go for a hookie of October 1913, but allow that it might be a non-hookie of 1915... Have I missed something? Am I completely up the creek? EDIT: As you say 'This comes from a very special part of the collection.!', then I'll go for the hookie! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 29 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2011 So, I go for a hookie of October 1913, but allow that it might be a non-hookie of 1915... Excellent stuff Trajan, very precise and methodical - obviously putting those archaeological skills and observation techniques to good use.! Unfortunately it is the latter, so not a hookie but still a very special bayonet to me, as it is probably the most intact and untouched GW 'used' example that I have. This had been in storage for a long time when I found it. I'm pretty certain this was a bringback item, as it appears to have been abruptly taken out of circulation. Also note above that there are no reissues or inspection marks and without the clearance hole added its highly unlikely to have remained in service after the war. This blade displays the best example I have of the GW sandblasting treatment, which was applied to reduce the amount of reflection off the earlier polished blades. Again it was amazing to see the stuff that was actually 'growing' on the blade, kind of like lichen which had been there for many years, with no rust present at all. Here's some more pics ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 30 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2011 And this next photo is not of the moon ... but is a closeup of the pommel, which is another feature that leads me to believe that this bayonet has certainly 'been there'. I have seen this kind of damage on just a few bayonets, and have seen others that have been refurbished in this area during the war (example shown in post #171, page 7) The damage to the pommel is always on the same side, which makes sense as it is the part which is exposed when the bayonet is carried in the scabbard on the left hip. My theory is that while the troops were in the trenches they would often be leaning over the parapet on guard. In the firing position its always the left hip taking the pressure. In a freshly dug trench the sides of the trench walls and parapet might be gritty and abrasive, and when constantly leant against would lead to such damage on the pommel. Further evidence that this was commonplace in the trenches exists in the photo above, where this example has had the pommel refurbished using a grindstone (dated '18) So to some this may be pure speculation, but I believe the evidence exists in the items, and is just another insight into some of the difficulties encountered in the trenches. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 October , 2011 Share Posted 1 October , 2011 Excellent stuff Trajan, very precise and methodical ... Also note above that there are no reissues or inspection marks Thanks for the compliments S>S, even thogh I was wrong in my conclusion! This thread and other posts of yours are really helping this tyro get to grips with bayonet matters... And thanks also for the observation in that post about reissue dates. Although it is so obvious, I hadn't really thought about that before, that the lack of reissue marks indicates a single period of use. Makes my P1888's and my P1903 that more interesting as they all have single issue stamps! I was intrigued by the observation in your next post, 'And this next photo is not of the moon ... I have seen this kind of damage on just a few bayonets ... The damage to the pommel is always on the same side ... '. I haven't seen anything like that, but in addition to your speculative thought, that the damage might be caused by a soldier leaning against a trench wall with bayonet in scabbard, might it also result from repeated banging against other bits and pieces of equipment? I have to confess that I have never see a person wearing a full set of the appropriate webbing and bits and pieces, but I can't help but wonder if this might also explain the damage - e.g., from the blade of an entrenching spade? Either way, as you say, your 'special' bayonet is one that was certainly there in the Great War. That aside, its the local Antika Pazar tomorrow... I wonder how many more P1888's I might find there! I suspect probably none - two in two months is luck enough. However, at the last Pazari there was a really nice sawback 98/05 which might turn up again, without scabbard and only a pommel 'Crown and letter' marking (i.e., nothing on spine and no maker's mark) - I didn't get it last month for budgetary reasons (in other words, the sometimes frowning wife!). If I get anything interesting tomorrow, and hopefully something interesting enough to post on this thread, I'll be on line again tomorrow night! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2011 Here's another photo if anyone's interested .... which bayonet from which country and for which model rifle.?? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 23 October , 2011 Share Posted 23 October , 2011 My guess is a Canadian M1910 for the Ross rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2011 My guess is a Canadian M1910 for the Ross rifle? Yeah I know, way too easy ... but which model Ross rifle.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 October , 2011 Share Posted 23 October , 2011 As is often the case, the nippers and work delayed my signing in today and now it's time to put the nippers down to sleep (not literally!), so I'll have a gander tomorrow! Trajan PS: So hassled I don't even know what's going on with the rugby.. PPS: Would I recommend late fatherhood? Hmmm, well, yes, greatly recommended - but with a great number of caveats...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2011 Here is another to try your hand at. Of course I need which bayonet - but in particular more about the date, era or conflicts, etc.? This photo has many subtle clues that can help to ascertain a timeframe for the items original manufacture and then later use ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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