sawdoc34 Posted 26 December , 2011 Share Posted 26 December , 2011 Belated merry xmas chaps, just thought I would add a few pics of some of the tatty looking (not had time to clean them yet) pointy things that I have picked up on my travels this time before we set off on the second round of visiting relatives/raising more than a few glasses for santa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 26 December , 2011 Share Posted 26 December , 2011 Apparently santa has a few more for me but he overloaded his sleigh, so had to send them via USPS S/S & Trajan, will get some clearer pics of the turkish marings for your other thread later, All the best, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 December , 2011 Share Posted 26 December , 2011 Happy Christmas, marrer! Now, that's an impressive and a very serious-looking series of acquistions you have made on your gallivanting around the UK: work must be ok - but when are you building the extension to the nettie to display all of these!!! And what about your 'er indoors??? (Don't say too much as the MODERATORS are watching ) A quick glance (time to get dinner ready over here!) shows you have some nice 'ba*ta*di*ed' (i.e., AKA 'Turked') examples - I especially like the shortened 1907! And I warrant that your unshortened 1890 is in good nick (If you want to get a reproduction leather scabbard made for this, I can lend you a locket/throat, but no chape). And that's a nice set of Indian bayonets as well (OK, WWII, but we'll overlook that for now)! Cheers, Trajan PS: OFF TOPIC (sort of): now about to lift a glass of effing Efes beer in your direction and Shipping Steel's and our other bayonet mates to celebrate your acquistions and the seasonal spirit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2011 Thanks for the Xmas wishes guys, and I hope you both had a good one. Got some interesting additions there Aleck, do we know what they all are yet.!! Oh, and you may have to change your 'interests' criteria now that you have branched out into new fields - once you start down that road you can't turn back. And I would certainly appreciate a pic of the markings from those Turks to add to my list. I'm now accumulating some good info on the marked Turkish equipment. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 27 December , 2011 Share Posted 27 December , 2011 Cheers for the offer of the throat/locket Trajan, will ask around to see if I can find someone to make a scabbard & get back to you mate. Her indoors is not a happy chappy, just wait until the other bayonets drop thru the mail box, bee in the spare bed for a while methinks. Also been looking at a Turk K. Kale Mauser to stick them on but might have to wait until she gets over my latest aquisitions 1st:thumbsup: S/S looks like I have gone down the slippery slope into the realms of Turk bayo collecting after all, will get some pics when the sun decides to come out to play. Think bayonets are (top-bottom) P1856 (early riveted short spring) P1856 converted for M/H P1863 Whitworth Turk M1935 cut down P1913 (has serial numbers on cross guard, so prob turked) Turked P1907 Turk uncut M1980 cut down Turk M1890 cut down Turk M1903 RFI P1907 Mk3 NWR P1907 Mk 2* MIL P1907 Mk2 (no false edge) Off to another family get together now, not really fancying it as nursing a hangover but suppose a hair of the dog might fix that, Cheers to you all, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2011 The cut down M1903 is an interesting one as its a Turk 'mongrel' (or a 'bitsa' if you like) as it has been fitted with a different hilt to the normal M1903. I believe these are known as the M1913 by collector's, as this style of bayonet was newly made in Turkey and stamped with their script in that year. The also liked to shorten the M1903 but in this case they have cutdown and converted the bayonet, by rehilting to apparently fit the M1913 specification. You can see it has the sloped grips where they meet the pommel, whereas the standard M1903 grips (just like the M1890) are always straight down. Yours is a strange one though as they didn't remove the quillon when they did the conversion. It would be interesting to check the markings and MRD.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Thanks for the info on the M1913 S/S (had to go & order a 1 without the quillion & straight grips now), there are no visible makers name on it & MRD looks the same as the other cut-downs. Here is another for you to identify, the USPS Santa brought it today along with 2 chuufin customs charge letters, have just paid them, so should have another 2 pics for you tomorrow evening. Cant get pics of the other 2 bayonets markings as sun is refusing to play so the flash is obscuring markings. Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2011 This is yet another version of the Turk 'mongrel' - part of a large variety of cobbled together and reworked bayonets that have become known as the M1935 group. I believe this one may have been newly made, but using the old fashioned locking spring from the earlier Peabody-Martini bayonets that the Turks had no use for. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Thanks again for the info S/S, much appreciated as these turks are new to me, must remember to change interest part of profile. Here are another 3 new aquisitions, 1 is really dodgey (knew what it was before I bought it, paid coppers for it & it looks the part on the end of the rifle it is supposed to be for) & the other 2 are for our good mate Trajan to try out his new book on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 December , 2011 Share Posted 30 December , 2011 Sawdocs, work must have been good down south andeven across the border in Scotsland to produce this wealth of material! I am still digesting the first lot!!! And green with envy... OK, writing this quick as dinner is almost ready. These last three are all 'Turked' , i.e. they have all been b*g*e*ed by the Turks to the short size. All with Turkish scabbards. Top one has grips simulating a Greman bayonet and a raised muzzle ring typical of (I think) the 1930's issues for Turkey (don't you love the bad brazing on the cross guard?!). Next one is an EB 47 with a nice weapon number, no burnished down rivets, crossgiard for an 88/98. The sawback is a bit odd... Will try to get back after dinner!!! Trajan PS: Happy New Year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Thanks for the info Trajan mate, have taken quite a shine to the EB47, love the handle but must admit it was the crap finish on the other ersatz that orinially intrigued me into to buying it. Here is another for you & S/S before I go to graft on a bloody freezing gutted empty house, hope you all have a great new years eve, will be having more than a few beers myself to celebrate later Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Happy New Year guys - hope you managed to sidestep the impact of the associated hangovers, etc, etc, from all the festivities. Aleck, your last exhibit is the common variety of "butchered butcher", otherwise known as the standard 'turked' S98/05 bayonet. Almost makes me cry when I see the horrible things they did to all those beautiful old bayonets. All I can say is Why, Why, Why.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Happy new year too you all! S/S, I managed to sidestep the hangover by doing my back in holding up 8ft by 4ft plasterboards up to some ceilngs whilst a bloody plumber pissed about trying to screw them up. Had to take the dragon to an antiques fair today to spend more of my hard earned cash for me but also managed to pick up a lttle something myself. Question is what is it? Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Happy New Year Sawdoc and S>S and all other bayonet lovers! S>S: I know what you mean - andsympathise - about these 'butchered butchers', but I kinda like all these weird and wonderful Turkish 'modifications'! And I would love to have a 'butchered butcher', never having seen one over here yet! Sawdoc: Your EB 47 is nice in having its original crossguard - most shortened examples had a new crossguard brazed on with a higher muzzle ring: see attached photo, one I am thinking of buying. I have two EB 47's of original length (one with the quillion ground off). I also have one real Turkish ersatz - steel handle is certainly German but I haven't worked out what EB it was yet... As for your new one, frog looks French? - but I'll have to take a look later as apparently it's my turn to cook dinner... Perhaps something with wine so that I can have the odd taste as I go along??? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 ... Here is another for you & S/S ... Aleck Aleck, just out of interest, what is the number on the crossguard of the 'butchered butcher' bayonet and who was the maker? Trajan PS: know only to well what you mean about renovating houses in Durham on January days and sympathise ...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Trajan, nice looking bayo that you are looking to buy mate , know what you mean about these turkish mongrels, they are fascinating, might end up costing me a few quid tho as there seem to be so many vatiations. Number on butchered butcher is 1084 & only a partial makers name but looks like- top line ends in RIK middle line ends in G. bottom line starts with J second letter could be an R,B,H or F & ends in N. Will think of you slaving over a hot stove now that I am having a few beers & trying to do some paperwork whilst watching the Mackems hopefully get beat on sky sports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Question is what is it? Cheers, Aleck Have a few minutes break. Are the grips brass? The pommel looks to be a different metal. The scabbard and frog look French to me - the French used that frog-loop instead of a frog stud. I was wondering if the bayonet and scabbard are a real pair? I.e., do they really belong to each other? I did think it might be a German Ersatz - but it has a full muzzle ring, and I think the Ersatz were all made with a 'cut-down' or 2/3rds muzzle ring usually with two MRD's to fit the Gewehr 88 or 98. What is the MRD on this? What is the blade length? The screw-bolts might be diagnostic? No markings anywhere? I have a gut feeling it is something mid- or late 19th century, adapted and/or altered by somebody else after capture. Certainly interesting! But now back to the kitchen stove... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Trajan, blade length is 14 & 7/8ths, grips look like alluminium alloy, mrd is about 5/8ths of an inch, markings remind me of those on the ricasso of Yugo M48 bayonet. Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Trajan, if S/S is not too keen on the butchered butcher, what do you think of this 1 thats on its way here mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Well, I can certainly go along with S>S on uttering an 'Ohhhh' and an 'Ouch' on seeing those filled in rivet holes where the crossguard was on what was once a nicely marked Simpson 98/05! But I can't help with that mystery one... (well, not yet!) Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Trajan, looks like I could end up in everyones bad books if I keep buying these Turked bayos & posting pics but its all history in my books, really like my turked P07s, even though they have done nasty things to the Vickers Looks like my 1st purchase of 2012 may be a chinese fanasy piece, according to info received from a member on the gunboards forum but what the heck, it cost coppers & looks the part, you win some, you lose some, no big deal Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 No, no, Aleck, you have me wrong - I LIKE the Turked ones! But as S>S warned, once you get into collecting those then you'll really be on a slippery slope - and will certainly be in the bad books of 'er indoors! I think I read somewhere once that there are well over 100 Turkish variations of regular bayonets! Me? well, I hope to specialise more on the Ersatz and on Turkish bayonets, especially the Turked variations - but I will always be on the lookout for another one or more of those Turk Garands... I've almost cornered the market as it is, but a few more will not go amiss Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Thought you guys might want/like to see this one - photo on the web of Turkish soldiers, dated 1927, and I think these are 'unbutchered butcher blades'. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Had to take the dragon to an antiques fair today to spend more of my hard earned cash for me but also managed to pick up a lttle something myself. Question is what is it? Cheers, Aleck Aleck your new addition with the alloy grips looks to have also had a bit of "work". Appears to be a 1924 style long export pattern bayonet that has been regripped. The M1924 was made and copied in a number of countries and then exported to a lot more, so exact identification is a little difficult, but the measurements match. Originally fitted with timber grips, these look to have been replaced with some "custom alloys" from whatever source.! The grip screws are modern replacements. The scabbard also looks to be a ring-in and I can't seem to place it yet. The frog loop may have been added later with all the extra brazing a possible giveaway.?? Your bayonet appears to have a makers mark stamped on the ricasso which I can't make out, but if you can read that I'm sure it would provide us with some clues. PS. I'm going to take a stab ... and say it was once a Yugoslavian made M1924 'long export' pattern bayonet that was supplied for the Persian Mauser contract.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 2 January , 2012 Share Posted 2 January , 2012 Trajan, nice pic of the turk trrops with the uncut bayos bud, here is another 1 (on its way, must stay offline after a few beers)for you to appreciate & to upset our mate S/S S/S, thanks again for the info mate, here is a pic of the ricasso marking, like I said its looks the same as the communist yugoslav markings on M1948 bayonets minus the 44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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