Observations of Bayonets

[shippingsteel]

Its obviously an Italian M1891 Carcano bayonet but with the muzzle ring removed & makers marks have been scrubbed.

It also seems to be navy marked as it has what looks like an anchor & numbered 807 to the crossguard. Anyone got any ideas?

Well like you said its an M1891 thats been modified, probably done to suit another rifle - but for which rifle would be nearly impossible to say.

I do know that Yugoslavia used the M1891 bayonets at some stage. Your best bet would be to find a match for that Navy symbol. BTW whats the MRD ....

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here is a little challenge for any of our bayonet spotting pals with a bit of free time on their hands ... (or not, I'm sure you can squeeze this in.!)

I have these couple of pictures below which show a British inspection marking that has been stamped into the timber grips (one on each side)

My question to you is what does the S stand for in this case.? And this time I need references ... yes you heard right, references ... and good ones.!

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here is the same inspection mark shown stamped onto the metal of the ricasso. Same question - what does the S stand for.?

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Very nice and clear markings there S>S! I'll take a guess. At least one bayonet-maker, Sanderson's, was in Sheffield, but I don't know if they made these ones (I'm at work and no ref. books). So, in addition to a Birmingham-based inspector might there have been a Sheffie-based one?

Trajan

[sawdoc34]

My guess is Sheffield also but sure I read somewhere that pre 1885 it stood for Solingen tho

[shippingsteel]

My question to you is what does the S stand for in this case.? And this time I need references ... yes you heard right, references ... and good ones.!

Thats an interesting theory Trajan ... but like I said you need to give me references.! (These pics are of my latest P'88 - little 'salty' but nice all the same)

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Just found some info here online-

http://thearmouryonline.co.uk/Identification.htm

[trajan]

Sawdoc, that marrer of ours down under is being deliberately obtuse and difficult with this one... I mean, he wants actual references???!!! Yeah, well...

Random thinking clicks in... 'Salty' may imply something otherthan condition... As for S, Sparkbrook RSAF made oilers for SMLE's, don't know about bayonets, but being in Brummagen then it may have used a B mark... I also wondered about Solingen, but I think they only made early trial specimens... Duh.... Thinks: I'll get a beer and think on if not distracted by the nippers...

Trajan

[sawdoc34]

Trajan,

will have to check brit/commonwealth book but cant be Sparkbrook as this is in 1 of skennertons other publications-

Think he is probably fast akip now but for what its worth mate, your Sheffield guess gets my vote

Cheers,

Aleck

[sawdoc34]

S/S,

Thanks for the info mate, will check the MRD when the dragon gets back as sure the calipers are in my car.Seems like someone else agrees with your conversion ideas, got this info from an Italian specialist on another forum-

The anchor is the same as those seen on Regia Marina TS. It could have been used by Italian marines.

Oops! I forgot to mention it's the San Marco Marines. They were Mussolini's darlings and were well-equipped. I've even seen a pic of an entire battalion equipped with German Mauser rifles... courtesy of Crazy Benito who posed for the pic with them.

I've only seen the muzzle rings hacked off when the bayonet was used as a fighting knife and have a couple of those. Another possible scenario is that the bayonet was altered for use on an M.95 Steyr. I can't recall which barrel is larger.

In any case, actual Navy bayonets are darn scarce. I've never seen one in person or at auction. They are good property!

Cheers,

Aleck

[sawdoc34]

Trajan,

just had a better look at the markings & all the solingen marks that I have found use a different shaped crown, so guess that rules solingen out mate, plus think that after the 1885 bayonet scandal that all Brit bayos were supposed to be produced by British manufacturers. So why would it have a german inspectors mark on it?

Will have to wiat until S/S comes back online to find out the answer

Cheers,

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

I'm pleased to see you guys have been working on this while I've been asleep ... actually I might just go back to bed now - let me know when you find that reference.!

No seriously, I can see Aleck has been doing some digging, while Trajan admits to just sitting on his *rse drinking beer. Hang on a minute I thought that was MY job. Ha.!

Of course Sheffield seems like it should be the answer, but I'm not so sure - and Solingen well that is the 'red herring' thats wheeled out by tyros with their very first textbook.

We might just have to wait and see if anything more can be found on this.? I'm sure Mr.T will be onto it soon and doing some furious researching but is there anything to find.?

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Ok, cant find the reference in 2 of skennetons, wilkinson-lathams, even looked in priests "spirit of the pike" (just in case of the way S/Ss warped mind thinks).

But looking again at the pic again, the grinding looks very much like that of a sanderson P1888, so suppose it could be a sanderson inspectors mark but like Trajan says sanderson was in sheffield, so could be either (or neither?).

This is too much, my bloody head hurts, I give up, you got me S/S.

Hope Trajan has more luck.

Cheers ( for the chuffin headache S/S),

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

This is too much, my bloody head hurts, I give up, you got me S/S.

Hope Trajan has more luck.

Cheers ( for the chuffin headache S/S),

Aleck

You're really cracking me up Aleck - so glad that your having so much fun.!!

And you're right, the marking is found on a P'88 made by Sanderson in Sheffield, so hmmm ...

Anyway we'll see what Trajan turns up on the subject. Will catch you tomorrow with some more thoughts.

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

This is not fun mate, do you realize its now nearly 2am owa here & my head hurts from a mixture of reading/googling & a few beers cos of the frustration.

Is there really a correct answer or is this just your sick way of having fun?

On a more positive note, I just bought another sanderson mk2 P88 (god knows why tho as I already have 2 mk2s) & full length german 1916 ersatz today (along with a few more turks, that have procured this week).

[shippingsteel]

Is there really a correct answer or is this just your sick way of having fun?

Cheer up mate.! Of course there is a correct answer - I'm sure that the guy who stamped it knew what it meant, for sure ...

Although it is surprising that with all the references that cover this type of thing, there is nothing really thats spells it out in detail.

I was hoping we might be able break some new ground, or unearth some rare, never before seen reference to put it beyond doubt.!

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Getting back to this question about the stamped S. Its an exercise that shows that we can't always know everything there is to know about bayonets.

Much of this stuff has been 'lost' and it doesn't matter how many references you search through, these simple details still seem to be missing forever.!

That doesn't mean we should give it up as a lost cause, we still have the information that is displayed in the examples themselves to provide some clues.

But to make any sense of that we need to look at examples that were produced around about the same time, to help get an idea of what they were doing.

This type of bayonet started being produced in quantity in the early 1890's, initially by the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield but also by other contractors.

Looking at some examples from that period we can see that RSAF Enfield used the very commonly seen letter E ... (eg. Enfield 1891 stamped Crown 45 E)

Then we have RSAF Sparkbrook located in Birmingham which did repair work and inspected local production with B .. (eg. Mole 1893 stamped Crown B 35)

Extra contracts for supply were also given to Wilkinson of London, these being marked at the factory with the W .. (eg. Wilkinson 1892 stamped Crown 35 W)

And we know that Sanderson Bros of Sheffield produced these bayonets under contract, marking them with an S .. (eg. Sanderson 1891 stamped Crown S 25)

For the government War Department contracts the contractors were obliged to have all their production properly inspected at the factory during the manufacture.

The inspectors would have been trained and supplied by RSAF Enfield, but when with the contractors used the stamps to indicate which factory they were based.

So given what we know about these processes, the logical assumption is that the S must stand for Sanderson, as no other factories were in Sheffield at that time.

As usual this is all just 'theory' and 'speculation' but as can be seen from the spectacular lack of references there to be found, sometimes that's as good as we get.!

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Are there any other verified official documentation on the meaning of any of the inspectors marks?

Never got that far into research, know what they look like & have just accepted that what I have seen in books/online as gospel but is there any actual official documentation for the markings or is it all just speculation based on the logical conclusion?

Why doesnt Sparkbrook = SK when it comes to inspectors marks?

Bloody hell my head hurts even more, when you consider that RSAF Enfield lock is in Enfield, RSAF Sparkbrook is in Birmingham, Wilkinson is in Whitehall & Sanderson is in Sheffield.

S/S, thanks for not really clearing that matter up with any solid evidence, will now have to consider digging for any evidence of any of this to satisfy my curiosity, which will take up more of my precious time off work. Need to buy another pointy thing to cheer me up/help me focus on the task ahead.

Cheers (S/S for the new headache),

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Are there any other verified official documentation on the meaning of any of the inspectors marks?

Why doesnt Sparkbrook = SK when it comes to inspectors marks?

SK was the acknowledged abbreviation for RSAF Sparkbrook but it appears this was restricted to the rifle production and components only, not bayonets.

These abbreviations were apparently announced in the List of Changes #8786 (mid 1897), where EFD was to mean RSAF Enfield and SK for Sparkbrook.

And this from Skennerton's Broad Arrow :-

An alphabet letter indicator beneath the crown, arrow or other symbol denotes the particular factory, city or depot where the view or inspection was carried out.

He goes on to indicate that E = RSAF Enfield, B = RSAF Sparkbrook, W = Wilkinson and S = Solingen (which in this case and context is obviously incorrect.!)

And sorry for giving you a headache, but thats pretty much what researching in any field is all about - lots and lots of headaches (and finding solutions to them)

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

What with one thing and another and another I wasn't able to chip in much on this debate but S>S, you are on the ball with the point that we lack an awful lot of information about markings... I was dubious about the Solingen possibility (didn't know about the arrangement but couldn't see why they would send inspectors there!) and yes, an S for Sanderson / Sheffield does seem to fit nicely. It would be nice to know if any Sanderson P 1913's have the mark!

Trajan

[sawdoc34]

Trajan,

Sanderson never made P1913 bayonets mate, altho the 1 Snderson made P1903 that I managed to find on line displays the S inspectors mark to the spine of the blade.

To further illustrate my ignorance in these markings, did all sanderson P1907 bayonets have E (enfield) inspectors marks? If so then why?

Definitely a pain in the ass these markings

Cheers,

Aleck

[sawdoc34]

Pics of the markings on the sanderson P1888 that arrived today, not quite as it looked in the sellers pics & was supposed to be dated 2 02 (think he tried to rip me off?) but cant grumble if he gave me this 1 instead

[shippingsteel]

Pics of the markings on the sanderson P1888 that arrived today ... was supposed to be dated 2 02 ... but cant grumble if he gave me this 1 instead

A P1903 for the price of a P1888.? - I'll take that kind of deal any day of the week.!

I'll assume that Trajan meant to say P1907 ... and no, Sanderson wasn't marking with the S at the time they were in production, Enfield had taken over inspection.

My earliest Sanderson P1907 is dated 1909 (this example an Australian used hook quillon removed) and as you can see from the photo, only E's used on this one.

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

S/S,

not quite mate, its even better, got another mk3 P1888, the bayonet gods were certainly looking down on me today.

Questions are-

Why are the mk3s always in a worse state than the more common mk1 type2 & mk2?

Why do we see more mk1s than mk3s on ebay etc?

Wish I could find one in the same condition as my mk1, guess a real nice condition mk3 will eventually turn up but will be no bargain,

Cheers,

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Why are the mk3s always in a worse state than the more common mk1 type2 & mk2?

Why do we see more mk1s than mk3s on ebay etc?

Wow, you did do well ... I was going to have a winge and moan about that, but then remembered my last pickup was a Turk M1887 as a M1890, so can't complain.!

The P'88 Mk.III's are much less common because there were few originally made. Skennerton has total Mk.III bayonet production at RSAF Enfield as only 65,000.

However there were also some later conversions done by Greener from earlier P'88 blades - I think yours could be one of those. (Note no Crown/cypher on yours.)

The conversion could also be of Indian origin, the blued blade is usually a good indicator of Indian reworks - and that also is why they appear so used and battered.!

Cheers, S>S