Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

I believe a member of my family is the chap on the right. Ernest Floyd. Is there any info that can be gleaned from it apart from the location please?

It shows he was a part of the 'original' British Army of the Rhine established in 1919 as part of the Armistice conditions placed on Germany as a defeated Nation. It was originally set up in March 1919 and at first composed of five corps, composed of two divisions each, plus a cavalry division.

In August 1920 Winston Churchill told the British parliament that the BAOR consisted of approximately 13,360, consisting of, Staff, Cavalry, Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Infantry, Machine Gun Corps, Tanks, and the usual ancillary services. The troops are located principally in the vicinity of Cologne at an approximate cost per month is £300,000. By 1922 the BAOR consisted of only two Brigades and it withdrew completely in 1929.

[FROGSMILE]

Not sure of this one. Again, info welcome

Haynes Park is near Bedford and was a Royal Engineers base that contained several training elements to support that Corps, including signals and cookery. The men are all REs training as cooks.

The enclosed photo shows some more RE soldiers in a tented encampment there. http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/174975

The whole of the Bedford area became one huge garrison, especially when the Highland Division arrived (later 51st), and you can read about the effect on that region here: http://www.bedfordhi...s.blogspot.com/

There are some good images of the park here (be aware that some are of another Haynes Park in the USA):

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=haynes+park&hl=en&rlz=1C1PRFA_enGB417&biw=1920&bih=936&prmd=ivnscm&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=FBdJTvX7EoGHhQeNktWdBg&sqi=2&ved=0CD8QsAQ

[FROGSMILE]

Here he is again [sorry, it's a bit battered]

In the battered photo he is in the Prince Alberts (Somerset) Light Infantry. http://www1.somerset.gov.uk/archives/sli/index.htm

However, there is no record of any Somerset Light Infantry battalion being part of the British Army of the Rhine (1919-1929): http://orbat.com/sit...inal%20BAOR.pdf

It is possible that he transferred to the RE as a cook some time during the war and it was perhaps in that capacity that he served at Cologne.

[ATNOMIS]

Here he is again [sorry, it's a bit battered]

Hope you don't mind I tried a tidy up

Simon

[Ralphed]

Hope you don't mind I tried a tidy

Looks good to me

[Bardess]

Do you have any idea how it feels to turn on the computer in the morning and receive answers that blow your mind?

Frogsmile, thanks so much for your info - I will have to delay clicking on the links until this evening. Your filing system [or your memory] must be in amazing order.

Simon, thanks for taking the time to iron him out!

Cheers both

[john gregory]

Manchester Pal ?

[RussT]

I picked up a couple of post cards for 50p in a second hand book shop recently. I'm a complete novice at identifying insigna/uniforms etc, so I was hoping the experts here could let me know to which units these soliders belong. Here is the first one - looks pre-war. Rank? Unit? Approx Date?

Thanks, RussT

[wainfleet]

Russ

He is a guardsman (equivalent rank to private) in the Grenadier Guards. It is near-impossible to date it from his uniform, but the lady's dress has a 1920s look to it.

Rgds,

W.

[RussT]

Wainfleet - thanks. So do I assume this is some sort of dress/parade uniform? Would it have been red tunic/black trousers?

Here's the second one. Regiment? Rank? Approx Date?

RussT

[wainfleet]

Russ

Yes, correct on both counts. [Edit: actually, navy blue trousers.]

The second photo is of a private in the Buffs, or East Kent regiment. I would date this between mid-1916 and early 1917 from his soft cap, of a pattern authorised around April 1916, and his simplified tunic, production of which ceased in mid 1915 and which wasn't seen much after 1916. He has the belt from the pattern 1914 leather equipment, an emergency wartime set of equipment issued to battalions raised for war service (Service battalions) and TA battalions. [Regular battalions got the regulation pattern 1908 web equipment.] Given that the TA battalions served in India and Mesopotamia and he is not wearing khaki drill, he is most likely to have been in one of the 6th, 7th and 8th (Service) Battalions.

Rgds,

W.

[RussT]

Wainfleet - many thanks - and especially the extra detail which you have managed to glean from the various articles of his uniform - fascinating stuff

Cheers, Russ

[FROGSMILE]

Russ

He is a guardsman (equivalent rank to private) in the Grenadier Guards. It is near-impossible to date it from his uniform, but the lady's dress has a 1920s look to it.

Rgds,

W.

It's a very minor point, but worth remembering that in WW1 and with the exception of the artillery and engineers, all ranks below Corporal were substantive privates, including in the cavalry. The honorifics of Guardsman, Fusilier, Riflemen and Trooper were introduced in the 1920s.

[RussT]

Frogsmile. That's an interesting point. I had understood that historically a fusiler was a soldier who defended the artillary - don't know from when that dates - Napoleonic or earlier? I'd assumed that by the time of WWI all infantry regiments were more or less identical regardless of regimental titles e.g. fusiliers, rifles, guards etc. So was their a specific purpose behind bringing back these titles post 1920?

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile. That's an interesting point. I had understood that historically a fusiler was a soldier who defended the artillary - don't know from when that dates - Napoleonic or earlier? I'd assumed that by the time of WWI all infantry regiments were more or less identical regardless of regimental titles e.g. fusiliers, rifles, guards etc. So was their a specific purpose behind bringing back these titles post 1920?

The title of the regiment is a different thing to the title of the man who 'lists with the colours'. The title of Fusiliers, for example, originated as you said. The point is that each soldier was originally titled a 'Private Man'. irrespective of the honorific title of his regiment whether it be Guards, Fusiliers, Rifles or any other. Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers soldiers had long had the formally recognized titles of 'gunner' and 'sapper', respectively. In WW1 the infantry officers had already begun to refer to their men unofficially as fusiliers, riflemen and guardsmen in a similar way (and in some regiments had done for years), but this was not approved by the Army authorities in a formal way until the 1920s and it was done so as a signal honour to mark the fighting spirit of the men who ultimately had won the war.

[john gregory]

Wainfleet - thanks. So do I assume this is some sort of dress/parade uniform? Would it have been red tunic/black trousers?

Here's the second one. Regiment? Rank? Approx Date?

RussT

So young, not old enough to shave.

[squirrel]

The title of the regiment is a different thing to the title of the man who 'lists with the colours'. The title of Fusiliers, for example, originated as you said. The point is that each soldier was originally titled a 'Private Man'. irrespective of the honorific title of his regiment whether it be Guards, Fusiliers, Rifles or any other. Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers soldiers had long had the formally recognized titles of 'gunner' and 'sapper', respectively. In WW1 the infantry officers had already begun to refer to their men unofficially as fusiliers, riflemen and guardsmen in a similar way (and in some regiments had done for years), but this was not approved by the Army authorities in a formal way until the 1920s and it was done so as a signal honour to mark the fighting spirit of the men who ultimately had won the war.

A well constructed and clear explanation Frogsmile - thanks for posting it.

[FROGSMILE]

A well constructed and clear explanation Frogsmile - thanks for posting it.

My pleasure squirrel. As a footnote, the term 'Trooper' was originally that used for the soldiers mount (an officer's mount was termed a 'Charger' (shades of knighthood here)). It replaced the term 'Private' not only as an honorific to mark the soldiers specialization, but to mark the gradual demise of the horse as a mode of military transport.

[squirrel]

"Trooper" was also used to refer to troop ships as well IIRC.

[RussT]

Frogsmile - many thanks for putting all that into context.

Regards,

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

"Trooper" was also used to refer to troop ships as well IIRC.

Indeed it was, I can see you know your Kipling squirrel

[john gregory]

Unknown Welsh

[Shanes Park Camp]

Can anyone identify the uniforms in this pre-war photograph.

It is a postcard view of a group at the Giant`s Causeway County Antrim.

The postcard was posted in Naas County Kildare on 16 Aug 1909 and addressed to a Miss A.M. Balmer, Belfast

James

[Shanes Park Camp]

Detail of group at Giant`s Causeway 1909

James

[FROGSMILE]

Can anyone identify the uniforms in this pre-war photograph.

It is a postcard view of a group at the Giant`s Causeway County Antrim.

The postcard was posted in Naas County Kildare on 16 Aug 1909 and addressed to a Miss A.M. Balmer, Belfast

James

They appear to be men of the Army Service Corps in dark blue undress frocks (looser than tunics with no white piping down front) with white collars (the ASC facing colour) and white tracing around the front flap (which encloses the cap badge) of their Brodrick Caps. The Brodrick was issued in 1902 and worn until around 1906 although some units (not ASC) wore them for much longer. You can also see the double white stripe down the outside seam of their trousers which marked out ASC soldiers. They are all therefore in "Walking out dress" and it seems to be a Sergeants' Mess day out.