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The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'


sutton-in-craven
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headgardener - would I be likely to get anything from the medal rolls?.

Very unlikely. RAMC BW&VM rolls (assuming that he was only entitled to a BW&VM, and that they were issued by the RAMC) don't record his individual unit, only his corps. I would never discourage someone from looking, just in case, but I have looked at an awful lot of rolls, and have never seen anything other than 'RAMC' recorded next to a name.

Interesting info about the ship. Looks like he must have been an orderly, but I still say that it doesn't explain the 'attd RND' reference, which may of course have been a previous unit or a mistake by his family when the deatails of the local memorial were being compiled. The RND did not serve, as a unit, at sea. Strange that the CWGC don't record his unit. I wonder what his death certificate says.

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"Harry" Lund was Resident Long Eaton and Enlisted Ilkeston Born Keighley according to SDGW so maybe some info may lie in that neck of the woods??

Although hes on neither town war memorial.

I think ive found a Lund/Berry link in that theres a pension record to an Alfred Berry Lund living in Long Eaton and Enlisted Ilkeston into 3/8th Notts+Derbs....Dad John so Harry possibly living there with them in 1914.

Ady

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Interesting: the only address I have for Harry is in Sutton but purely where he was born and brought up. The 1911 census has two Harrys (1892 and 1893, the former in the East Riding - which surprises me - and the other in Preston, Lancs: no Samuel). I don't subscribe so can't view the entries.

Not sure where Berry Lund would originate: as I understand it, Harry's mum was a Berry and she married a Lund. So what's the connection? I believe the older brother stayed in the Sutton area. Only 10 years older than Harry - a bit young for Berry Lund to be his nephew, I would have thought. Another sister marrying another brother, perhaps?

I note from SDGW that he "died" - presumably indicating he was drowned and not one of the poor souls who became a pincushion?

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Hi All,

What a roller coaster this has turned into!! I have been in touch with Andrew via email on this subject and just wanted to throw in my findings on the matter in the Keighley News(not sure which paper Andy was looking in?) but I went straight to the following:

Keighley News: 2/3/18, page 7 col 1

SUTTON

ON A TORPEDOED HOSPITAL SHIP

Dispensary Clerk Harry Lund, R.A.M.C., son of Mr and Mrs Sam Lund, West Lane, Sutton and a grandson of the late Mr Thomas Berry, warp sizer, Ellers Mill, Sutton, was on board the Glenart Castle. In a letter, dated February 24th, to Mr Laurence Preston, The Ellers, Sutton-in-Craven, Mr Lund stated that he had been transferred to the hospital ship Glenart Castle and that they were sailing on Tuesday last. He enlisted early in the war, and since his mother's death five years ago he has resided in Huddersfield. He served his apprenticeship with Mr Robert Petty, Crosshills. His name does not appear in the list of survivors.

I think that this makes a fairly water-tight case? or are there still some doubters out there?

Robert

PS Sorry to steal your thunder Andrew, but couldn't resist!!

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Hello all, nice to be back. I was thinking Samuel's (Harry's) spirit had jammed the system in delight at all the commotion he's caused!

Again, a fantastic result and a big thanks to everyone for their tenacity and amazing detective work in solving this seemingly 'unsolvable' case.

Verrico, have you got some sort of psychic sixth sense? You seem to have a knack of uncovering the uncoverable!

Now I know this next question is really pushing the limits. Verrico, you mention that you managed to make contact with a relative who knew enough about Samuel to say he preferred to be called Harry. I was wondering if he/she or someone that he/she knows has a photo of Samuel/Harry, preferrably in army uniform? I'm more than happy to ask the question if I have the contact details or it maybe easy enough for you to ask as you have already made contact.

A photo would be great to add to the profile I am putting together on 'Harry' Lund, along with the other 39 names on the Sutton memorial by 11th Nov this year. All 40 files will be available for public viewing on the Sutton village website in PDF format in November. The idea is you will be able to click on any name and view the file

<A class=bbc_url title="External link" href="http://www.sutton-in-craven.org.uk/sicmemorial.asp" rel="nofollow external">http://www.sutton-in...sicmemorial.asp

Also 'Craven's Part in the Great War' would, I'm sure, like to have an image of Harry Lund + all this new information that has surfaced within the past few days.

7.15am here on Thursday morning, nearly time to dash! Andrew

Edited addition to my last post:

Robert, this just keep getting better and better.

Just when I think all the information possible has been gathered on ‘our Harry’, you come up with this gem of a newspaper report from the Keighley News.

Fantastic, great work Robert.

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Was that in the card index?

I only found two S. Lund references in there, one (wounded) from 1916 and the other was Stephen Lund whom I already knew about.

Well spotted though. I must go back and have a look for that.

Edited to add: I wasn't looking for a Harry Lund, we didn't know about Harry being Sam at the time.

Edited again to add a link as Andrew's link is too long for the forum software:

The Fallen of Sutton in Craven

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Verrico, have you got some sort of psychic sixth sense?

I knew you were going to say that! innocent.gif I'll drop you a PM. I'll enquire about a photo.

I was thinking Samuel's (Harry's) spirit had jammed the system in delight at all the commotion he's caused!

Shhhhhh - there's some very frazzled nerves around here! Harry will just have to do a very quiet "victory jig"....

Great find, Robert. There's no stopping our man now he's been "rediscovered"!

Delighted it's all come together. Definitely Not Forgotten. poppy.gif

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Hi All,

No, he's not in the index Andy. I find that the index is very good, but you can't beat a look in the paper when it comes down to these awkward ones, because no matter how well the indexing is done there are always a few that slip through the net, unless of course the person doing the task can maintain 110% concentration at all times, which is almost impossible. The eyes start to glaze over after a while and a little touch of apathy sets in, or at least I find this!! Probably my age?

As it happened it was virtually the first entry I looked at, so no time to fall asleep!! Unfortunately I could not find another mention of him or a photo, even though I looked up to the end of May.

Yes, I rather think that he will be remembered for a long time on this forum and I imagine that he would have been quite amused, if he could have seen how much consternation he has caused after all these years.

Well done everyone and here's to Harry or is it Samuel?

Cheers, Robert

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Hi All,

No, he's not in the index Andy. (snipped for brevity)

Well done everyone and here's to Harry or is it Samuel?

Cheers, Robert

My bold.

Ah, I see, you found him through the date we discovered. I went into the library on Monday this week and we didn't really have anything to go on at that time. It's a great snippet of news that you've found and something that really puts the icing on the cake for this man's story.

I agree with you about the indexing, it's a wonderful thing but subject to human error like everything else we have a hand in. I've found one or two small errors in it along the way myself.

Craven's Part in the Great War will be adding the correct details to their site but I will also be adding them to the Men of Worth Project as he was born in Oakworth, so he's a local lad to me. I'm very pleased to welcome Harry back into the fold.

Definitely not forgotten. :poppy:

I'm going to keep an eye out for a picture of Harry. Sadly my Great War archive scrapbook finshes in mid 1917 so he's not in that.

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Morning Andy,

Yes, an excellent result all round and three websites brought up to date on this one, that is including Andrew's Sutton site. After all this is where the whole thing started, even though it appears there was some doubt over the entry from various quarters previously, no one had had the time to put the spotlight on it, that is until Andrew started the ball rolling. It is amazing what can be achieved by a small group of like minded people. Brilliant.!!

I suppose that the real icing on the cake would now be to locate a photo of him, an undertaking which I now understand has been put into action at close quarters. Keep your fingers crossed.

Best wishes and keep up the good work,

Robert

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"He enlisted early in the War". As mentioned, the MIC we can definitely place as his only shows the two medals, therefore no service abroad before January 1916 at the earliest. Assuming he's not got a second card hidden away, could this be where headgardener's observation that the RND were home-based can shed some light on what he was doing?

I have an awful feeling from the report (he seems to have just learned that he's headed out) that this could have been his very first sortie.

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Assuming he's not got a second card hidden away, could this be where headgardener's observation that the RND were home-based can shed some light on what he was doing?

No, I was saying that the rND were land-based rather than being a sea-borne unit. They would not have been responsible for crewing this hospital ship, so this man wouldn't have been serving with the RND at the time of his death. The rND were serving in France at this time, and continued to serve there until the end of the war. there were some depot units in the south of England.

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I stand corrected - that'll teach me to post before breakfast, without re-reading! But all useful learning.

Perhaps his family wished to reflect that part of his service.

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Is it possible he had only just been attached to the RND and was being transferred out to them, but just travelling as a passenger on HMHS Glenart Castle? There were no casualties on the outbound trip, which is why the loss of life was low for a hospital ship sinking. Maybe he was just along for the ride out to where he was actually headed and helping out stocking up the pharmacy stores or something along the way. Without a service record I guess we'll never know. But the relative might know, so it's one of the questions I'll be asking her. They got the 'Att RND' bit on the war memorial from somewhere and the relatives are prime candidates for being the source of that information. We'll see.

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This just keep getting better, Ady, the grave stone photo is superb. Please thank Owen for allowing us access to the image.

'Our Harry' had been lost in the system for almost 100 years, his memory apparently destined to remain forgotten for eternity - until a few determined research fanatics from the Great war Forum, one with extrasensory psychic phenomena, decided to unearth 'the facts'. The next thing Our Harry is back with us loud and clear, in memory if not in person.

The scary thing is, what will people be unearthing about us in 100 years time? They will no doubt have the means, not yet invented, far greater than the internet to research individuals and possibly uncover unthinkable data such as:

"Found out today that Great Uncle Andrew passed wind 2 times after his Sunday lunch on the afternoon of the 15th August 2010 and once, discreetly but deliberately, in an elevator full of nuns on their way to Sunday mass at 10.30am on 25th July 2010"

Hmm, too scary to contemplate, so back to Our Harry. I now have enough information to put together a profile on Harry which I will complete ASAP within the next 24 hrs I hope. I want to piece together all the information thus far uncovered while the trail is still hot. I've no doubt I'll have the odd further question or two whilst processing all the available data. Talk to you soon

Again, an astounding result, a big thanks to everyone, Andrew

Edited addition to last entry

Ady, do you think Owen Vaughan would allow me to include the photo of Harry's grave-stone in my profile on him? I will of course reference the image to Owen. Let me know, I'm happy to ask Owen myself if you prefer. Thank you in advance, Andrew

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Is it possible he had only just been attached to the RND and was being transferred out to them, but just travelling as a passenger on HMHS Glenart Castle? There were no casualties on the outbound trip, which is why the loss of life was low for a hospital ship sinking. Maybe he was just along for the ride out to where he was actually headed and helping out stocking up the pharmacy stores or something along the way. Without a service record I guess we'll never know. But the relative might know, so it's one of the questions I'll be asking her. They got the 'Att RND' bit on the war memorial from somewhere and the relatives are prime candidates for being the source of that information. We'll see.

Unlikely to have been traveling to France as a passenger - it was a hospital ship rather than a troop-ship. So, not impossible, just very unlikely (imho).

Just to reiterate; the RND were a division that in 1917 were serving in the trenches in France. It was made up of naval men (mostly RNVR) and Royal Marines. They were entirely a land-based unit. They did not have any sea-borne elements. The fact that Harry Lund was serving on a hospital ship does not explain the reference to the RND on the memorial.

3 possibilities;

he had some previous period of service with the RND (but this would have had to be in France)

he was somehow attached from the RND to the hospital ship (again, this would have required previous service in France, and would also mean that he was attached to the ship from a unit to which he was already attached; unlikely, imho)

the reference to RND is a mistake (I think that sometimes we may assume too much about what next-of-kin knew or understood about a relative's service; it's easy to imagine that someone might have thought that a soldier serving on a ship was automatically part of the RND)

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headgardener - I had another look at the article and note it says Harry was a dispensary clerk and he was on board the Glenart Castle, also that he was transferred to the ship, but does that automatically mean he was a dispensary clerk working on it at the time? Going back to the Wiki entry, I note there were 7 RAMC medical officers and [46 other?] medical orderlies. Can we get any names? As well as seeing if I can find Harry's medals roll entry I might poke around in the service records on my visit to Kew next week to see if they can shed any light on this aspect.

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I had another look at the article and note it says Harry was a dispensary clerk and he was on board the Glenart Castle, also that he was transferred to the ship, but does that automatically mean he was a dispensary clerk working on it at the time? Going back to the Wiki entry, I note there were 7 RAMC medical officers and [46 other?] medical orderlies. Can we get any names?

Does it automatically mean that he a dispensary clerk on the ship? Ultimately we can't be 100% certain, but I'd say that it sounds likely. The fact that 'dispensary clerk' gets mentioned is a reasonable indication that this was his role on the ship (assuming, of course, that he was part of the crew).

Regarding the names of the men who died on the ship, I mentioned in an earlier post that there was a new book (gets a mention on 'ships and navies' sub-forum) which I think contains a roll of honour for men and women who served on hospital ships. That's got to be a good bet.

Regarding death certs, he should be on the 'Marine Deaths' register.

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Great - got that Andy. Something to go on.

Thanks, headgardener. Possibly a point which will never be entirely clarified but worth a try. I agree it's quite possible it was what seemed a natural assumption to the family. Or that he was indeed attached to the RND at some point, but not by the time of his death. I'm am extremely happy that we've found out as much as we have and it's been great teamworking but if there's still a bone to chew over, the Rottie in me can't resist.

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Louise, if you click on the number in column one it's a link which takes you to the CWGC page for each person.

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