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Remembered Today:

The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'


sutton-in-craven

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A James Henry Lund is given on SDGW as resident Sutton In Craven on SDGW he was KIA with 2/6th West Ridings in 1917

maybe related?

Ady

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Hi again, hmmm I've been saying the Sutton-in-Craven memorial was unveiled in 1923. The UK National Inventory of War Memorials informs me it was unveiled on 19th March 1921 by Lieut Colonel C.M. Bateman, built by MESSRS WRIGHT AND SON (BRADFORD), which narrows the search down, assuming this information is correct!

Ady, thanks for the James Henry Lund information, I've added a thread to the Sutton-in-Craven village forum asking for potential relatives to add their voice.

Andy, a lady that I know in Sutton has already done a full inventory of both the village Church and Chapel gravestones. Quite a few WW1 servicemen are there, but not the elusive S. Lund.

Actually, Sutton is 5 miles from both Skipton & Keighley, so the Keighley News also reported many Sutton casualties from WW1.

Verrico, thanks for the S. Lund (Northumberland Fusiliers) link, sadly this is not the same person we are searching for :(

Regards to all, your help so far is most appreciated, Andrew

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Ah well, if the memorial was unveiled in March 1921 then it raises a futher issue, that of his apparent absence from the CWGC records because he will have died within the cut off dates for inclusion with them. It's possible that he's even a candidate for IFCP. We'll see, it's early days yet, but it's certainly something to bear in mind.

Thanks for the info about local graves/family memorial inscriptions, saves me having to go and look for S. Lund on them.

I agree with your point about Sutton being mid-way between Skipton and Keighley. I'll be having a dig around the Keighley News archives, probably tomorrow, in Keighley Library.

And I'll be going to see Christine Dowthwaite at Utley Cemetery office, to see if she can tell me anything about Lund family members buried in the area.

(If you haven't met her, Christine is a bit of a legend when it comes to knowing just who is buried and where.)

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Can't see that anybody's mentioned this - there's a public tree on Ancestry giving a Samuel Lund born Slippery Ford, Oakworth, Yorkshire in 1892 who died on 26 February 1918 - place of death given as "Bristol Channel". Could this be him? On the 1891 census his slightly older sister is recorded as living in Sutton (not noted for their brother). Right area, right timing, I think. Been through the WW1 death records on Genes but can find no record of him.

Edited to add: this is the most promising reference I've found so far - "Further along the coast path you will find a memorial stone which is dedicated to those who died following the sinking by torpedo of the Glenart Castle Hospital ship 20 miles from Hartland Point on 26th February 1918....Hartland Point is located on the tip of the peninsula where the mighty Atlantic Ocean meets the Bristol Channel." http://www.thenorthd...and%20Point.htm According to Wiki: "Only a few survivors were reported, with 162 killed including eight nurses, seven Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC) medical officers and 47 medical orderlies." And apparently they took pot shots at those who did make it into the sea, possibly to cover up the fact that it was clearly marked as a hospital ship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMHS_Glenart_Castle

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Hi Verrico, very well done, I reckon you may be on to something here.

3 points, Slippery Ford on 'the tops' is nearer to Sutton than it is to Oakworth, if I remember correctly. His sister lived in Sutton on the 1891 census. His place of death is given as Bristol Channel an apparent link to the R.N.D.

Maybe if he died in the Bristol Channel and never made it overseas that would explain the absence of a medal index card

Well this is clearly the best lead so far, in fact I'm almost inclined to believe this is our man.

Verrico can you remember the name of Samuel's sister on the 1891 census? I'll check if she's buried in Sutton, maybe Samuel's name is also on the same tomb-stone, minus any reference to him being a serviceman.

This is great news, thanks again, Andrew

p.s. Verrico I've just read the addition to your original post about the sinking of the Glenart Castle Hospital ship with the RAMC personel. I reckon you've nailed it! Surely this HAS to be the guy

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Ah now you're talking...

On 26th February 1918 HMHS Glenart Castle was sunk in the Bristol Channel.

A hospital ship? R.A.M.C. att to R.N.D? ...we might be getting somewhere here.

Added to that Geoff's Wonderful search engine lists 55 RAMC or Nursing service personnel dying on that date.

Added to that 94 crew of the HMHS Glenart Castle dying on that date and we have (assuming all the medical personnel were on the hospital ship - bear with me now) 149 people possibly connected with the HMHS Glenart castle. A ship which has a casualty list of 153. So there could be just 4 people missing from that list, is it completely bonkers to think that one might have been Samuel Lund, RAMC, lost in the Bristol Channel on that date?

And... There's more...

Slippery Ford is about 3 or 4 miles from Sutton, just over the hill in fact.

OK. Calm down and think... I'll admit, there's a lot of 'what ifs' and a fair bit of assumption but I think we might have the makings of a working line of enquiry here.

Louise, I think I might be in love.

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Brother John Thomas b 1882 Dobfield Farm, Laycock; death registered Keighley 1946. Wife and children so possibly family surviving. Sister Elizabeth Ann b 1884 also at Dobfield Farm; death registered in Sheffield 1968. No family listed. Parents Samuel (1852-1923) and Sarah Ann (1856-1914).

Is there any reason why he can't be the Samuel S Lund whose MIC is under 126249? In my trawling, I found a Harry Lund also RAMC whose date of death on CWGC is the following day commemorated at Pembroke Military Docks and his MIC doesn't mention his death either.

Fingers crossed but I can't quite pin it down!

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Louise, I think I might be in love.

With a wreck?! Oh well...

My brother doesn't call me the "Family Rottweiler" for nothing, Andy! tongue.gif

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LOL, that's a great post Andy!

Actually even before Verrico added the extra info' on the sinking of the Glenart Castle Hospital ship, my hear skipped a beat when I read 'Slippery Ford', 'sister living in Sutton' and 'Bristol Channel'.

My immediate thought was "this is him", now with the additional info' from Verrico about the RAMC soldiers who went down with the Glenart Castle Hospital ship, I'm 99% sure this is the guy

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You're probably right Andrew. I want it to be him of course, but it's not quite there for me. There must be some concrete evidence to link him directly to the war memorial.

And of course there's the question of his absence from the CWGC records. If he truly is the man we seek and was in the R.A.M.C. at the time on a hospital ship, then he deserves to be recorded by CWGC, but this I think this may be a tough connection to make. Without an official crew roster or something similar we'll struggle to make that stick.

Edit:

I've just checked through the memorial inscriptions for Laycock cemetery and he's not named there, despite there being quite a few Lunds listed. Samuel Lund his father is listed as dying in 1923 aged 70, beneath John and Elizabeth Lund (our man's grandparents).

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Yes I concur, no reason at all why 126249 S.S. Lund RAMC isn't our man. In fact now we know his name was Samuel, surely this HAS to be his medal index card.

Earlier I was saying maybe he didn't get a MIC if he died in the Bristol Channel and never went overseas. But when the Glenart Castle Hospital ship went down it clearly wasn't a pleasure cruise up & down the channel! They were on their way to the front

I still can't get over the fact the mystery has been solved and I was all for putting it in the 'too hard basket' a couple of days ago.

Thanks too for the census family details. If his sister died in Sheffield she's not going to be buried in Sutton I wouldn't think.

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Yes, in 1891 John Thomas and Elizabeth were living with their mother and her brothers (her maiden name is given in the tree as Berry). JT's birthplace is given as Sutton and they're still living there. Sarah Ann's Sutton born and bred. Elizabeth ditto. Now for the 1901 census.

Edited to add - not much from the 1901 census: found the brother aged 20 in lodgings, now giving his birthplace as "Aackworth" [sic]. Two possible Elizabeths in service, but not quite right birthplaces. No sign of Samuel and his parents. Poor man seems to have slipped under the radar more than once.

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With a wreck?! Oh well...

My brother doesn't call me the "Family Rottweiler" for nothing, Andy! tongue.gif

I would never refer to a lady as a wreck... :o

Oh. I see what you meant there... :D

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I agree, gentlemen - it's tempting to say this must be it but I have to admit it's so far circumstantial. It's a shame there's no notes on the family tree, despite the date of both birth and death clearly being there. There's a pdf of an article in the New York Times saying 38 are safe but 144 are missing, whilst Andy refers to the final total being 153, so presumably the usual and understandable confusion in the circumstances. Shame the MIC wasn't marked up if it was him.

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:) Cracking detective work there

Andy think a trip to Keighley library and the papers is needed hopefully you can find something in the obituaries/in memoriam pages.

Fingers crossed.

Ady

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I agree Ady, some amazing sleuth work for sure.

The evidence so far may be circumstantial, but I have to say that every molecule of my body says this is our man, not one ounce of doubt in my mind.

Samuel Lund, born Slippery Ford on the hillside above Sutton, with his mother & sister both born & bred in Sutton. Died 26th Feb 1918 in the Bristol Channel.

Coincidentally, the Glenart Castle Hospital ship is torpedoed in the Bristol Channel on 26th Feb 1918 containing RAMC soldiers, 7 of whom died, thus connecting them to the R.N.D.

The MIC to a Samuel Lund who served with the RAMC may have to be seen as circumstantial, but there's a reasonable chance it was our man.

To me, all the dots join up. I think we're probably one newspaper clipping away from proving the case conclusively.

Thanks to all so far for an unbelievable effort, Andrew

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Ok, We've managed to get in touch with a relative and she has confirmed that Pte Samuel Lund RAMC att RND on the Sutton in Craven war memorial is in fact:

Name: LUND, HARRY

Initials: H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps

Date of Death: 27/02/1918

Service No: 115666

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: E. 151.

Cemetery: PEMBROKE DOCK MILITARY CEMETERY

Apparently Samuel was known as 'Harry' to almost everyone and quite possibly enlisted using that name.

So, he was on the HMHS Glenart Castle sunk by a torpedo from a submarine on 26th February 1918. He was a casualty of that attack. Note there is a discrepancy in the date, according to the CWGC he died the day after the sinking. We know that bodies were recovered from the sinking. Pembroke Dock Military Cemetery only has one person buried there who died on this date so it is possible (my theory) that Harry may have been brought ashore alive and died the day after, having been brought to hospital. Or, it could be a simple transcription error, but as no other casualties are buried in Pembroke Dock cemetery, it seems odd to have just one person from that disaster buried there. So far all the others I've found killed on that date are on The Hollybrook or The Tower Hill memorials.

Edited to add:

I drew a blank at Keighley Library. Not a sausage.

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Andrew and Andy already know the twist to this one, but I thought it was worth reporting here.

I have made contact with Samuel Lund's relative, who has confirmed that Samuel was drowned when the Glenart Castle went down. However, he was known to everyone as "Harry". I had come across a Harry Lund on CWGC and noted that his date of death was the day after the date given for the sinking and that he was buried/commemorated at Pembroke Military Docks. I even thought I'd made reference to it here, but apparently not.

It's been confirmed that he is buried in Pembroke Dock Military Cemetery and that his headstone reads: 115666 Private H. Lund Royal Army Medical Corps 27th February 1918.

From CWGC ( http://www.cwgc.org/...casualty=670426).

Name: LUND, HARRY

Initials: H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps

Date of Death: 27/02/1918

Service No: 115666

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: E. 151.

Cemetery: PEMBROKE DOCK MILITARY CEMETERY

Which means that he is this man:-

Name: Harry Lund

Regiment or Corps: Royal Army Medical Corps

Regimental Number: 115666

And not this man:-

Name: Samuel S Lund

Regiment or Corps: Royal Army Medical Corps

Regimental Number: 126249

who just happens to have similar details! In fact, if he'd been placed on the tree as Harry rather than Samuel, I imagine we'd still be looking.

Still, I believe there's a nice postscript to this and I'm sure Andy or Andrew will be along to put it all in place.

Edited to add: I see you beat me to it.

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Well, as you know, the family tree clearly gives his date of death as the date of the sinking, otherwise I would never have been able to link the two. Worth asking about, I guess. Your theory appears sound to me.

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Great Work everyone on this little mystery...am sure that Samuel "Harry" Lund would have a little chuckle if he knew the confusion the name caused!!

Am sure our Aussie exile will be made up over this. :D

Ady

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It's interesting that Harry Lund's CWGC details don't list an actual RAMC unit. I wonder if anyone can check the cemetary register itself, or perhaps the cemetery records, rather than the CWGC database just in case some details have been left out (it does happen).

Can I add that the RND were an entirely land-based unit, and therefore there may be NO connection between the fact that Harry Lund was attached to the RND and the fact that he was on a ship. I've come across several medics who have worked on hospital ships, but none of them were ever serving with the RND (although it is always possible that some men were detached from the RND to serve on hospital ships, though remember that Harry Lund was already attached to the RND so would be less likely to be attached by them to another unit). I'd suggest that it is more likely that he was one of the sick or injured men being transported by the ship rather than being one of the orderlies serving on the ship. You'll only know for sure by either tracking down his service papers, or by finding an obit, or by working out whether the ship was carrying wounded men or not (i.e. whether it was 'coming' to the UK) or whether it was carring any reinforcements to France (unlikely - it was a hospital ship).

Edit; just wanted to add that there's a new book on hospital ships, including (I think) a roll of honour of men and women who died serving on them, which is the subject of a thread on 'Ships and navies' (or whatever that particular sub-forum is called). Maybe some more info there.

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headgardener - would I be likely to get anything from the medal rolls? I'll be at Kew at some point next week.

My understanding of what I read was that the ship was going out empty on her way to collect the wounded from France, but I'll see if I can find the link again.

I've tried everything I can think of to track down his service papers but hopefully someone will have more luck.

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Here we are:-

HOSPITAL SHIP SUNK BY A U-BOAT; 164 Missing from the Glenart Castle, Which Is Torpedoed in the Bristol Channel. HAD NO PATIENTS ON BOARD Vessel Was on Way to France for Wounded--American Destroyer Lands Some Survivors Went Down in Seven Minutes. Many Jump Into the Sea.

http://query.nytimes...9649C946996D6CF

pdf of the full report here: http://query.nytimes...9649C946996D6CF

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