Fromelles - The searches past and present

[green_acorn]

That would be great Chris ... might confirm or throw new light on the conversation you boys have been engaged in.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Sandra,

If it helps your larger groups efforts and I get to it, I will image the diary I can't imagine it will be many pages. But note sometimes my images can be blurry from freestanding, I do wish they would allow or buy proper camera copy stands.

Cheers,

Chris

[ianw]

Hi

There could have been a systematic reluctance to exhume mass graves when there was a great amount of work in concentrating small cemeteries, moving isolated graves and finding the unburied.

If we examine the work of 2nd Lt Collins, who cleared the 51st Div area around Beaumont-Hamel, as reported in “Last Man Standing” we find the following. The identifiable dead from 13th November 1916 were buried in Mailly Wood cemetery. The unidentifiable dead of 13th Nov and the identifiable dead of 1stJuly 1916 were buried in Beaumont-Hamel cemetery.

The unidentifiable dead of 1st July, numbering 669 were buried. The task of digging graves for 669 men would have been immense but there were now redundant trenches nearby so it would be sensible to assume that these burials were made in the trenches which were then backfilled. This would class as a mass grave to me.

An exhausted Collins then had to clear the bodies of the dead of 1st July on Hawthorn Ridge. Since he says that these were Newfoundlanders and most of those did not reach the front line on that day I would assume that he was working in the area of the car park for Newfoundland Park. He removed the men’s paybooks then “we shovelled the dead into shell holes, mostly half filled with water, about thirty rotting bodies to a shell hole” Again these are mass graves.

Collins describes taking the paybooks back to Brigade HQ. The Graves Registration Unit (GRU) would have been aware of all these burials and I seem to remember the troops who took La Boiselle reported burying about 400 men in the old trenches.

For the Germans to make mass burials we need the following scenario. In an attack the troops penetrate as far as the 2nd or 3rd line before being pushed back. There are now many bodies in or near the German positions. As long as the area is not overlooked the Germans will clear the bodies for sanitary reasons. If the numbers are small then shell holes will be used but where the numbers are large then, as Pheasant Wood Shows, Burial pits were dug.

The men of 36th Div who took but could not hold the Schwaben Redoubt fit the above scenario. We can only wonder where they were buried.

The Body Density maps prepared by GRU and issued to the Labour Companies to direct the clearance efforts show no trace of the 669, the Newfoundlanders in shell holes or the men in trenches in front of La Boiselle, nor is there any indication of possible burials behind the Schwaben.

I do not express any view as to whether it was justified or not but ask was there a systematic policy to ignore mass burials?

Peter

Peter,

I apologise for not picking up on this fascinating post a week ago. Your final question of whether mass burials were sometimes ignored for purely practical reasons is a very good one and should cause us much head scratching. Given the circumstances that pertained at the time, perhaps we should not be surprised if men run ragged decided that one hole in the ground was as good as another.

Regards Ian

[green_acorn]

Sandra,

I am at the AWM next week for the August Offensive conference and am using Tue and Wed for my own research, if I get through what I have to do I will pull the AWM files you mentioned. Could I ask what it is that is being looked for? Basically any work they did around Fromelles or other problems?

Cheers,

Chris

Sandra and Pals,

Unfortunately I was unable to get to the War Graves unit files, I barely got through identifying (and not yet copying) documents from my own list, I do wish it wasn't so expensive to live in Canberra, I would consider moving here just for the AWM and National Library.

Cheers,

Hendo

[ianw]

Hendo,

No problem.

I suppose the politicos and lobbyists ensure Canberra is expensive to keep the plebs away.

Regards Ian

[Fedelmar]

That's okay Chris we all appreciate you adding it to your list.

Tim hopes to be going to Canberra sometime in the next six months, I will delegate the job to him

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[ianw]

I note that there is a new book coming out in October in the UK which may have shed some light on the behaviour of Diggers in France - I wonder if it will mention the A.G.S ?

Peter Stanley's new book is apparently entitled :-

"Bad Characters - Sex, Crime, Mutiny, Murder and the AIF"

- obviously not promoting it with its sensational aspects then!

(I think he's British by the way!)

[green_acorn]

I note that there is a new book coming out in October in the UK which may have shed some light on the behaviour of Diggers in France - I wonder if it will mention the A.G.S ?

Peter Stanley's new book is apparently entitled :-

"Bad Characters - Sex, Crime, Mutiny, Murder and the AIF"

- obviously not promoting it with its sensational aspects then!

(I think he's British by the way!)

He can't be looking at going back to the AWM in the future either with such a non-pc subject But good on him for writing it, there is always a need for honesty, I wonder if others will do the same for their own nations?

Cheers,

Hendo

[ianw]

Apparently he works at the National Museum of Australia having left the AWM.

[Capt_Starlight]

Just had a reply from Peter Stanley.

His Bad Characters: Sex, Crime, Mutiny, Murder and the Australian Imperial Force was released last week in Australia.

Details are:

Publisher Pier 9, Sydney (an imprint of Murdoch Books - he gets everywhere!)

Published: July 2010

Pages: 288 Pages

ISBN: 9781741964806

Size: 234 x 153mm

Price: AUD $29.95 (RRP in Australia)

Format: paperback with flaps

It is listed in Amazon.co.uk at (stg)12.74 (to be released in UK on 4OCT2010) - is there still a link through the LLT?

Also listed in the Book Depository (includes free postage) and Booktopia sites (apparently $6.50 to post around Oz for any amount of books according to their site!) at some discount for the Oz end of the house....

(Sorry for the "plug" if it offends anyone or site rules....)

[ianw]

I have just discovered one interesting aside to the A.G.S scandal that was covered up - one officer resigned before the enquiry and was not called as a witness. This was Captain Quentin Spedding. His pre-war occupation was a journalist on the Sydney papers. This might perhaps explain the close interest that the Australian Prime Minister took in the proceedings.

Spedding reported adversely on the behaviour of Lt Lee and must have known about other bad behaviour. However perhaps his politics made him generally sympathetic to officers who had come up through the ranks.

Quentin Spedding subsequently was a friend, confidante and press secretary to Australian Labor politicians and apparently famously told a group of journalists that the Sydney Opera House would cost around $7 million. It eventually cost $100 million. Some things never change.

[ianw]

Just had a reply from Peter Stanley.

His Bad Characters: Sex, Crime, Mutiny, Murder and the Australian Imperial Force was released last week in Australia.

Interested if anyone has read this yet?

[green_acorn]

I have just discovered one interesting aside to the A.G.S scandal that was covered up - one officer resigned before the enquiry and was not called as a witness. This was Captain Quentin Spedding. His pre-war occupation was a journalist on the Sydney papers. This might perhaps explain the close interest that the Australian Prime Minister took in the proceedings.

Spedding reported adversely on the behaviour of Lt Lee and must have known about other bad behaviour. However perhaps his politics made him generally sympathetic to officers who had come up through the ranks.

Quentin Spedding subsequently was a friend, confidante and press secretary to Australian Labor politicians and apparently famously told a group of journalists that the Sydney Opera House would cost around $7 million. It eventually cost $100 million. Some things never change.

Ian,

What is your evidence of a cover-up? I have just read Quentin Spedding's personal file and can't find evidence that because of Spedding's resignation that aspects of the "AGS scandal" were covered up, indeed if he, as you state had reported on LT Lee and others, it is hardly a cover-up, that he wasn't called as a witness by the Court of Enquiry doesn't necessarily surprise me, time (both in the time needed for witnesses to make their travel to and for their appearance and the time the court had to conduct its duties), costs and distance were issues of the time. Indeed if Spedding had made his adverse reports of Lee in print (I haven't read the 700 pages of the AGS Enquiry "General Correspondence" file), one would expect that was probably enough evidence at the time.

Secondly, ALL Courts of Enquiry, including Royal Commissions are given reporting times and constraints, was Spedding available in the UK during the time of the Enquiry? Did the Court know of his evidence before the Enquiry started?

Then what is your evidence of Speddings politics regarding officers promoted from the ranks? That he later "was a friend, confidante and press secretary to Australian Labor politicians" a long bow that one! I would imagine that many officers and soldiers had a political epiphany as a result of the war, but maybe Spedding was an Australian Labour Party supporter or motivated that way before the war? Would that have made him disinclined towards officers?

Cheers,

Hendo

[ianw]

Hendo,

I think it is clear that the Inquiry was a cover-up designed, quite understandably, to prevent details of the behaviour of the AGS becoming public knowledge. On page 14 of 790 , declaring that Lee and Kingston should not be court martialled it states because :-

"The resultant harm of the disclosure of the situation that had existed far outweighed any good that could have been done."

The chosen fall guy was Lt Lee who was certainly not blameless but possibly less culpable than some. His indignation is perhaps understandable.

You do right to pull me up for lack of hard evidence but Spedding was certainly a man of the Left - he was active in the AJA before WW1 and investigated the Fascist leanings of members of the MCC Cricket Touring Team in the 20s. In view of this one might postulate that he may well have been uncomfortable at being seen to provide ammunition for the Army to use against the junior officers and men involved in the AGS affair. From the records I have viewed only Lt Lee's file and Lt S T MacMillan's file detail any AGS wrong doings.

On page 15 of 790 of the Inquiry file is the following :-

"Lt Lee was first reported adversely upon to myself as Lt Colonel i/c Administration in January 1920. Capt Spedding requested that steps should be taken to return Lee to Australia as his work was not satisfactory. I asked Capt Spedding to make some charge against Lee as unless he took definite action himself a general report verbally would not be sufficient grounds on which to return an officer to Australia. Capt Spedding was shortly after suspended and resigned his position."

I wonder what happened to cause Spedding's suspension. The adverse comments about Lee, although unofficial, were reported to Major Allan and his fate was sealed.

Not sure what you mean when you refer to the established fact that we was a Labor Press Officer as a "long bow ,that one!".

The AIF appears to be rather more democratic than the British Army with more officers who were working class before the war - Captain Kingston DCM MM was an example. Given the politics of Australia in years after WW1 and the threat perceived from Bolshevism, the AGS cover-up can perhaps be better understood. They just wanted to get the heroes home and back to work without any negativity.

[green_acorn]

Hendo,

I think it is clear that the Inquiry was a cover-up designed, quite understandably, to prevent details of the behaviour of the AGS becoming public knowledge. On page 14 of 790 , declaring that Lee and Kingston should not be court martialled it states because :-

"The resultant harm of the disclosure of the situation that had existed far outweighed any good that could have been done."

The chosen fall guy was Lt Lee who was certainly not blameless but possibly less culpable than some. His indignation is perhaps understandable.

You do right to pull me up for lack of hard evidence but Spedding was certainly a man of the Left - he was active in the AJA before WW1 and investigated the Fascist leanings of members of the MCC Cricket Touring Team in the 20s. In view of this one might postulate that he may well have been uncomfortable at being seen to provide ammunition for the Army to use against the junior officers and men involved in the AGS affair. From the records I have viewed only Lt Lee's file and Lt S T MacMillan's file detail any AGS wrong doings.

On page 15 of 790 of the Inquiry file is the following :-

"Lt Lee was first reported adversely upon to myself as Lt Colonel i/c Administration in January 1920. Capt Spedding requested that steps should be taken to return Lee to Australia as his work was not satisfactory. I asked Capt Spedding to make some charge against Lee as unless he took definite action himself a general report verbally would not be sufficient grounds on which to return an officer to Australia. Capt Spedding was shortly after suspended and resigned his position."

I wonder what happened to cause Spedding's suspension. The adverse comments about Lee, although unofficial, were reported to Major Allan and his fate was sealed.

Not sure what you mean when you refer to the established fact that we was a Labor Press Officer as a "long bow ,that one!".

The AIF appears to be rather more democratic than the British Army with more officers who were working class before the war - Captain Kingston DCM MM was an example. Given the politics of Australia in years after WW1 and the threat perceived from Bolshevism, the AGS cover-up can perhaps be better understood. They just wanted to get the heroes home and back to work without any negativity.

Ian,

Thank you for the excellent and detailed response. Yes Spedding's suspension from duty is an interesting aspect which is not mentioned in his file. With regards to the "long bow" I was referring to your comment about Spedding's politics regarding officers promoted from the ranks. His later employment and activities don't necessarily make him a Laborite before or at the conclusion of the war, nor does his membership of the Australian Journailst Association, just as membership of the Australian Medical Association or Australian Bar Association doesn't make all doctors and lawyers small business minded and owning Conservatives. Unlike today, I believe most adults of the time belonged to some form of professional association, guild or trade union. Dare I say a lot of peoples political views changed markedly because of the war and that it caused the very slow process of social change to occur even in the UK when the government commuted the sentences of a number of soldiers.

Cheers,

Hendo

[ianw]

Hendo,

Yes, this whole affair is fascinating including the personalities concerned and I suspect that the full facts will never be known.

I wonder if Spedding was suspended because he would not complain formally about Lee? Also MacMillan the other officer found quilty of forgery was a journalist before the war. Perhaps Spedding knew him - and of course as O/C, Spedding's standing would have not have been enhanced as the details of the AGS in France became better known.

Spedding was a foundation member of the AJA and the Melbourne rep in 1912 so I would characterise him as an activist and would suspect that his political leanings would have become known to senior officers. I certainly agree that many men's political (and indeed religious) views were changed by the Great War. Given Spedding's later political allegiances, I suspect that his were reinforced.

I am sure there is more information to come out on this subject and am thankful that the availability of information from the Australian archives gives us a chance to get a glimpse of what really happened. A look at the Spedding papers would be interesting.

Regards Ian

[green_acorn]

I wonder where the more important Court of Enquiry flies are: The Proceddings and Evidence

[ianw]

I wonder where the more important Court of Enquiry flies are: The Proceddings and Evidence

Hendo - have a look at pages 250 onwards.

Yes, the summary is dynamite - on pages 695 - 703. There is evidence about general AGS problems from approx page 250 onwards. Captain Kingston's evidence is rather unimpressive.

The Burns exhumation complaint and the Lund driver/batman complaint seem to have beeen set up for detailed investigation in the knowledge that they could be rebutted quite easily. Other more serious problems are more obliquely referred to - but taken very seriously as can be seen from the recommendations and general remarks on pages 702 and 703.

[ianw]

Hendo,

As regards the interesting Captain Spedding, please look at his testimony on and around page 410. He name drops powerfully looking for some protection from his association with the powers that be at Australia House. He does, perhaps unsurprisingly, show a sensitivity to the "political" aspects of the affair.

In one interesting exchange when he is behaving as if he is on a charge, the court confirms that he is not subject to a charge - and the under current of the exchange seems to confirm that he won´t be charged.

Having read more of the file, I get the impression that Spedding was a bit of a mischief maker and rather anti-establishment. He champions the cause of Kingston and it appears that it is Spedding that gets him promoted to Captain. He appears to have a matching antipathy to Lee.

Difficult not to think that Spedding must have been aware of the character of Kingston and knowing what was happening at Villers B.

Regards Ian