Fromelles - The searches past and present

26 July , 2010

Macbeath is quoted in the reference I put up earlier regarding British experience:

Things did not proceed as smoothly with the Australians. Private W.F. Macbeath, one of the soldiers described by Dunn, wrote home on 23 April 1919: "I think they have got the roughest lot of officers they could find in the AIF with this unit, and by jove they want them it is the roughest mob I have ever seen, they would just as soon down tools as not."⁵⁰ He continued: "Although we have only been going a few weeks we have had two strikes, we refused to work until we had better means for handling the bodies, had better food and cut out all ceremonial parades." Similarly, Captain A. Kingston reported: "The men were constantly getting drunk... The majority of the men were a bad lot and very inefficient. They were neither dependable nor reliable."⁵¹ Major-General Fabian Ware referred in November 1921 to "Australian officers who should be withdrawn immediately as confusing records and otherwise causing much mischief."⁵²
^...

Private W. Macbeath described his job baldly in his diary for 15 April 1919: "Working in the fields digging up the bodies, a very unpleasant job."⁵⁶ Two days later his simple diary entry encapsulated the pity of this task: "Working in cemetery. An English lady came over to see her son's grave, found him lying in a bag and fainted." In describing this incident in a letter home two days later he wrote, with phlegmatic understatement: "I cannot say I am exactly in love with the job."

David

26 July , 2010

David,

Yes, indeed.Very useful.

I paraphrased some of what Macbeath said in that very interesting document but I was wondering if his full diary is available electronically or only for physical reference in Australia.

26 July , 2010

For a useful summary of the charges against Kingston and Lee, and thereby the apparent state of the AGS on the Western Front, please see the pages approx 5 or so on each side of page 700 of the inquiry file.

Given the amount of alcohol being consumed, the question perhaps shouldn't be "Why didn't they find the Pheasant Wood pits" so much as were they capable of finding Fromelles - or getting there as the car, its tyres and the petrol had most likely been sold. Extraordinary.

I still think Lee was rather hard done by but contributed to his own fall.

27 July , 2010

Ian,

Your summaries of the key players and events over the last couple of days seem to echo my thoughts when I first read this file.

The transcript of Private William Frampton McBEATH's (not MacBEATH) diary is held in the archives at the AWM and I'm sorry to say isn't available online. It's something I'll have to look at next time I'm visiting.

In the meantime, here's a photo of the Officers of the AGS (from the AWM). None of them are named, but given the clues in the description below, let's see who we can identify. I'll start off with front row, third from left - Major ALLEN.

Description:

An outdoors group portrait of unidentified officers of the Headquarters of the Australian Graves Detachment, and a female civilian outside the 'Red Chateau'. The chateau housed the Officers Mess for the Australian War Graves Detachment. In the front row an officer (centre) and a lieutenant (first from the left) are wearing Military Cross ribbons. In the back row a lieutenant (third from the right) is wearing a Distinguished Conduct Medal ribbon and a Meritorious Service Medal ribbon. Also in the back row is a British lieutenant (third from the left).

27 July , 2010

Sorry, I don't think that 3rd from left on front row is Allan - judging by earlier pics posted Allan is a large bloke looking a bit reminiscent of Vincent Price.But I'm not sure.

From the photo description, it must be Lt Kingston with his DCM and MSM third from right on back row. So this photo may be fairly early (1919?) as he ended up a Captain. if this is the case, the photo may pre-date Allan.

I would imagine Lt Lee is there as well.I think he may be in the centre at the back. A search of "LT W Lee" in photos archive throws up a picture of a W Lee as a signals officer. I think he is the man in the centre of the back row. A second opinion would be useful.

I think the Red Chateau is at VB? The officers with MC ribbons may be identifiable. Presumably , the officer in the centre is the first Captain O/C.

27 July , 2010

Tim,

How does this image relate to the Australian Graves Service responsible for the Fromelles area? It seems to me to be the image of the earlier and much larger Australian (War) Graves Detachment which operated around Villers-Bretonneux. As Ian has pointed out other than identifying LT Kingston DCM MSM is it relevant to Fromelles?

I'd hate to see too many honest Australian soldiers and their officers who did the gruesome task with honour tarred with the brush being given to the AGS at Fromelles!

Cheers,

Hendo

PS: No more mud slinging about old dead soldiers and ladies of ill repute! I have partied too hard with too many Vicpol officers , from officers in the records area, to D's and blokes with beards. You wouldn't by chance know of anyone who has an amazingly expensive in 1990 dollars gold (?) plating machine, but had no money to buy the plating? .

27 July , 2010

Hendo,

I absolutely agree that the majority of the men involved in this dreadful task would have been committed to getting their former comrades buried with dignity. However, it would seem clear that the main base of activities at VB when under the command of Captain Kingston went completely and quite shockingly native. Hence VB was recommended for complete closure and a fresh start at Arras. Kingston and Lee were sent home. It doesn't seem clear quite how bad things were at Amiens and Poperinghe but one might wonder if the closer proximity of senior British officers and other officials in these places may have had a restraining influence.

The debacle over the location of Lt Burns' grave seems to have happened under the "new management" of Major Phillips and "Major" Allan. I still can't understand how anyone came to the conclusion that Burns was buried at Fournes. It would seem that on reflection they realised this and tried to cover up their incompetence and protect their military dignity with their actions to try to frustrate Mr Smith's attendance at the exhumation. Allan specifically states that he covered many miles inspecting the ground at Fromelles and Fournes. Having stood in front of Pheasant Wood a few days ago, I would have thought that any half competent inspection of the ground in 1920 would have revealed all - but apparently not.

I am still unclear at the various areas of responsibility but the whole situation gives me profound doubts that the AGS would have had the cohesion, skills and willingness to undertake comprehensive mass exhumations at Fromelles although it is clear things did improve under Majors Phillips and Allan- but they could I suppose have called in British help given that the mass Fromelles graves were thought to include large numbers of British dead. Perhaps they did raise this possibility, but, of course Fromelles was a sideshow battlefield.

There is also evidence that they looked inside Fromelles Wood rather than on the edges.

I note that Lt Burns ID disc was in their possession. I don't think it is explicitly stated but I presume it came back via the Red Cross along with others from the Fromelles casualties. One wonders if these ID discs came back en masse in thousands or in discrete groupings i.e did the Fromelles discs come back concentrated in the same way as the German Army would have sent them from the Fromelles front or did the Red Cross break them up to form/accompany separate soldier files. Perhaps Peter Barton knows the answer to this.

All in all a very interesting story with a great potential impact on the question of whether more pits remain to be discovered. I definitely think yes.

I wouldn't be surprised if I have made some howlers in my limited understanding of things detailed above. I am happy to be corrected.

27 July , 2010

Ian,

Point taken.

Hendo

27 July , 2010

Dear All,

The best summing up of the inquiry that I have found is in pages 695 to 703 of NAA doc 362638 - linked to on this thread.

In the general remarks dated May 1920, the inquiry chairman says :-

"Up to the date of investigation ... no reasonable or definite plan of carrying out the work seems to have been formed and many of the officers and men did not realise the dignity and importance of their position.

The appalling condition apparent in March 1920, must come as a warning for the future guidance of those in charge, that unless immediate and drastic action is taken for proper control, this effort to honour the dead shall only be the means of bringing shame and disgrace upon the good name, fame and reputation of Australia."

I think the reputation of Australia was considerably enhanced by the recent events at Fromelles so all is well in the long run. However, are further Aussies still waiting patiently in the soil of France for the omissions of the past to be made good?

27 July , 2010

It's a few days old now but I can explain A Morris about the stones on top on the headstone of the 'unknown soldier.' We sat if front of a family from Australia who understandably in my opinion expected to gain admission to the Cemetery before they had to return to Lille that evening and then home to Australia. Their relative had not been named and they asked us if we would place two stones and a twig of pepper plant on top of gravestone of the soldier they had witnessed being buried. The stones were from the house that their relative had lived in until he enrolled which is now semi-derelict, and the pepper plant was the only useful thing growing in the garden. We were happy to do this for them when we had admission to the cemetery reserved for the British Families on Tuesday morning. Photographs have duly been sent.

Chris

27 July , 2010

I have found Lt Lee's file. He is No. 4899 and joined up in 1915 as a 41 year old mining engineer. He made an army career in signals.

Unlike Capt Kingston who escaped nasties on his file, Lee has details of charges listed for misappropriation of money in 1919. He was reprimanded under arrest. He was a married man and the inquiry took a dim view of him living with a woman other than his wife in France. Also the inquiry reports that 2 off his staff of 3 at Amiens

ran estaminets/houses of ill repute. Lee may have been a bit slack!

He fell out badly with Kingston over his Amiens office staff inc himself being paid late. Kingston might have instigated the audit that came up with the irregularies in Lee's accounts books at the Amiens office. Who knows.

27 July , 2010

Tim,

How does this image relate to the Australian Graves Service responsible for the Fromelles area?

Cheers,

Hendo

As I understand it Villers B was where the photographers were based under Captain Kingston. They roamed everywhere - and a major problem was the lack of control of them. Major Allan was nominally the boss after his appointment and was based in Poperinghe and did his surveys of the Fromelles area on trips from there. Of course, Poperinghe is much closer to Fromelles than Amiens or VB. Allan visited Amiens & VB approx twice a month

but had no direct authority.

I presume Lee covered the Somme from his Amiens office. However all the offices reported back to Australia House in London direct. The command structure in France and Belgium, at least early on, was non-existent.

So the picture will include officers with responsibility for matters in Fromelles.

27 July , 2010

Ian,

Thank you. I had thought the image was of the earlier and much larger (1,000 officers and men) Graves Detachment that did the work around V-B in the immediate post Armistice period before they had to be sent home (because of the war plus six months rule). Other than having LT Kingston DCM and a possibly others I didn't think it was the AGS we have been discussing. If I was incorrect my apologies.

Cheers,

Hendo

28 July , 2010

Hendo,

Thanks for that clarification. I take your point and I think you are right. The picture is described as the Australian Graves Detachment which I think was the forerunner to the AGS. I think the main protagonists are there in any case - Kingston and Lee. It would be useful if we could identify some more of the officers.

Looking at the picture, I suppose that they number enough people to look after the early battalion sized operation. As you say it was scaled down substantially. Lt Lee ended up with a staff of 3 at Amiens- and the inquiry report says 2 of them were running estaminets!

28 July , 2010

There are these files at the AWM however, it would mean someone checking them to see what they contained.

AWM224 MSS611 Australian War Graves Detachment: Diary, 1919

Access status:OPEN