Fromelles - The searches past and present

[Fedelmar]

Mick, it is at the NAA and was part of an investigation into one of the Fromelles lads. Tim is across the matter and will get him to come visit with a response later today.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Scotty]

Dear Pals,

Many apologies if my attached document offended anyone. It certainly wasn't my intention. I agree with much of Hendo's post, and respect the fact that he is a former member of the Australian Army. If my attachment had been of an author's personal view, or hearsay, or even a value judgement, then feel free to come down on me like a ton of bricks. What I attached was a highly valued document to any historian- a primary source. I'm sure Mr Lee, as an academic with the Army History Unit, would concur that it is certainly a document worthy of some consideration. Irrelevant to the context in which it is located within the NAA, it exists. The date and the adressee suggests that the Australian Corps Burial Officer had been informed of the pits at Pheasant Wood well before 1922. In addition, the delivery of over 200 death vouchers to the authorities stating 'buried in the vicinity of Pheasant Wood' should have instigated some sort of search of the area. It didn't, and that's the most puzzling aspect of the whole tragedy.

That document was located in a Court of Enquiry into the AGS. In my personal opinion this file (over 700 pages) is a must read for anyone interested in the work of the Australian Graves Services in Viller Bretonneux after the war. Just go the the NAA and search Australian Graves Services. A word of warning though, it contains some very uncomfortable reading. Regards, Scotty.

[Peter Woodger]

Hi

There could have been a systematic reluctance to exhume mass graves when there was a great amount of work in concentrating small cemeteries, moving isolated graves and finding the unburied.

If we examine the work of 2nd Lt Collins, who cleared the 51st Div area around Beaumont-Hamel, as reported in “Last Man Standing” we find the following. The identifiable dead from 13th November 1916 were buried in Mailly Wood cemetery. The unidentifiable dead of 13th Nov and the identifiable dead of 1stJuly 1916 were buried in Beaumont-Hamel cemetery.

The unidentifiable dead of 1st July, numbering 669 were buried. The task of digging graves for 669 men would have been immense but there were now redundant trenches nearby so it would be sensible to assume that these burials were made in the trenches which were then backfilled. This would class as a mass grave to me.

An exhausted Collins then had to clear the bodies of the dead of 1st July on Hawthorn Ridge. Since he says that these were Newfoundlanders and most of those did not reach the front line on that day I would assume that he was working in the area of the car park for Newfoundland Park. He removed the men’s paybooks then “we shovelled the dead into shell holes, mostly half filled with water, about thirty rotting bodies to a shell hole” Again these are mass graves.

Collins describes taking the paybooks back to Brigade HQ. The Graves Registration Unit (GRU) would have been aware of all these burials and I seem to remember the troops who took La Boiselle reported burying about 400 men in the old trenches.

For the Germans to make mass burials we need the following scenario. In an attack the troops penetrate as far as the 2nd or 3rd line before being pushed back. There are now many bodies in or near the German positions. As long as the area is not overlooked the Germans will clear the bodies for sanitary reasons. If the numbers are small then shell holes will be used but where the numbers are large then, as Pheasant Wood Shows, Burial pits were dug.

The men of 36th Div who took but could not hold the Schwaben Redoubt fit the above scenario. We can only wonder where they were buried.

The Body Density maps prepared by GRU and issued to the Labour Companies to direct the clearance efforts show no trace of the 669, the Newfoundlanders in shell holes or the men in trenches in front of La Boiselle, nor is there any indication of possible burials behind the Schwaben.

I do not express any view as to whether it was justified or not but ask was there a systematic policy to ignore mass burials?

Peter

[Seadog]

Scotty (Post 77) please tell me how to access the AGS report you mention at the NAA. Tried but failed (as usual)

Regards

Norman

[Scotty]

Norman,

I hope this works.

My link

[Seadog]

Sorry to be a pain Scotty but no!.

Norman

[Scotty]

The page should be here.

[Seadog]

That is great Scotty many thanks for your assistance. I am always amazed how Australia has preserved and made its records available to the public via the internet. Good on you (And free, unlike rip-off Britain)

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Yes, thanks Scotty. Fresh back from Fromelles, I look forward to looking at this important document.

Regards Ian

STOP PRESS - this document is dynamite!

What it reveals about the goings on of those involved in the recovery of the remains in and around 1920 is extraordinary.

I am rivetted by the story of the "exhumation" of Lt Burns and the dodgy goings on surrounding the affair. Of course, we now know that Lt Burns was all the while at Pheasant Wood and would have to wait another 90 years for his exhumation, ID and honoured burial at the new Fromelles Cemetery. An amazing story.

I don't think there is any doubt that at some level the evidence of the existence of the mass graves at Fromelles was ignored - what I have desribed earlier as an understandable tendency to let sleeping Diggers lie.

There were considerable cost pressures coming down from on high about the battlefield clearances and relatively junior officers might have thought it expedient not to ask for further resources to exhume another 2 or 3 hundred sets of remains.

[Auimfo]

The file regarding the Australian War Graves Section at the NAA has been discussed somewhere here before but I can't remember where exactly.

I've previously sifted through the entire 790 page enquiry record and sorted the relevant documents regarding mention of Pheasant Wood from all the other allegations of misconduct etc. (it is a fascinating file to read if you have time and makes you wonder about the thoroughness of the work amid all the bickering).

The parts regarding the search at Pheasant Wood all stem from a complaint made by the family of Lieut Robert BURNS (missing but now identified). His father was a rather important and influential man whose son-in-law went to France during 1920 to make personal enquiries with the Graves Unit about the location of Robert's remains. Apparantly he believed he was deliberately mislead and that the officers in charge had 'hoaxed' the investigation while keeping him in the dark. Whether this is true or not is open to conjecture but the enquiry that resulted gives us an insight into what happened at Pheasant Wood.

According to the records, Major ALLEN of the Graves Unit followed up a communication from Germany about 5 collective graves before Pheasant Wood. He personally walked the area and the indication from these documents is that that he was made aware of the location of these graves. He made a couple of accounts of his efforts...

"Before any question of the exhumation of Lieutenant Burns' body arose I made an exhaustive search all round Fromelles Pheasant Wood and a portion of Fournes. I traced where a cross had been removed, the inscription giving the exact date of death, and was informed a British Officer had been "lifted" by the Germans and removed but no one knew where, and after a further search I located this cross in Fournes Cemetery, the only cross of it's kind with the date of death and the word 'Fromelles' on the cross."

and

"In response to letters from your office I carried out a personal search, walking many miles in various areas, trying to locate the reported isolated collective grave supposed to hold Lieut Burns and others. Near Fromelles a place was pointed as where the Germans exhumed English soldiers, for a time all trace was lost as no one in the office of the D.A.D. or G.R.U. kept any records of German burials or re-burials. A little cemetery on the other side of Fromelles was found and from this bodies had been removed. After further search the original cross as was reported at Fromelles etc, was located in Fournes German Military Cemetery. The inscription and date thereon exactly corresponded with cross etc, as reported by Headquarters, London as being described by the Germans."

and here is where I believe the confusion set in. A memo from ALLEN dated 4th March 1920 gives us a clue...

"In regard to my report re: above (Lieut Burns) I desire to say that after another search and investigation the cross referred to in my former letter as being in a German cemetery at Fournes is in my opinion the cross and grave asked for as the cross and grave were originally placed by the Germans at a spot near Fromelles and Pheasant Wood and since collected by them and replaced in this cemetery."

In other words, ALLEN actually located the site of the mass graves but based on a suggestion that the cross and bodies had been moved, he formed the opinion that it was the same cross at Fournes and that the bodies buried at Fournes therefore must be those supposedly moved by the Germans from the Pheasant Wood site,

With the admitted benefit of hindsight, in my opinion ALLEN's investigation was far too cursory and not nearly exhaustive enough. Quite clearly documents as early as March 1919 regarding the location of the graves indicated they existed at both sites,

"A communication from Germany states that there are five large British collective graves before Pheasants Wood near Fromelles AND another in the British Cemetery at Fournes."

It seems ALLEN may have misinterpreted this as well as giving no thought to the idea that there might easily have been 'two' crosses similarly incribed. Maybe I'm being a bit too harsh on ALLEN given the conditions and times - his dedicated work is generally well respected - but on this occasion I believe he made a poor error of judgement.

The upshot of all this is that 'YES' the mass grave were known about and seemingly even located but due to misinterpretation and confusion, they were discounted as having been previously exhumed and moved by the Germans to Fournes.

That is, of course, until Lambis arrived on the scene all these years later!!

Cheers,

Tim L.

[ianw]

Tim,

Thanks for your analysis above.

I have just started reading the dossier that you are so familiar with and it is indeed fascinating.

From the early pages, I note that Major Allen is accused of trying to ban Lt Burn's family representative from an exhumation of his remains. The claimed reason was that he was fully aware that the body was not that of Burns. If this is true, by extension, he could also have been aware that Lt Burns and many others were at Pheasant Wood.

The various accusations being flung about - including uniformed Australians working in bars and brothels! - would have seemed to have led to a number of officers and men being rapidly sent home. Major Allen - although not a soldier, the most senior officer in the field? - seems to have had strong support from on high including Birdwood himself.

Most interested in what happened to the various protagonists later in their lives.

[Scotty]

Tim,

An excellent interperetation of the primary sources presented. Scotty.

[ianw]

The dossier gets stranger the more you read of it. What a can of worms. One of those situations where the truth is totally obscured by a welter of accusations and the fog of confusion and half truths.

[green_acorn]

A very comprehensive post Hendo and no doubt many would agree with the majority of what you say. However I see that you include the UK in the list of those "who go to extraordinary efforts to recover their fallen, if they can". I think that the facts, certainly in respect of WW1 do not support this statement. Just one example is that of the Industrial developments around the village of Boezinge near Ypres. It took the unofficial group known as the "Diggers" to undertake the excavation and removal of the remains of at least 66 British soldiers found at this site over a period of years and I understand that not one was identified by name.

There were also German and French remains found, a total of nearly 200 individual soldiers, in fact prior to Pheasant Wood this was the largest "find" of WW1 soldiers made. At no time did the British MOD take an active role in the excavations or recording of the men and it was left to the "Diggers" to find the fallen on the site in order that they should have the dignity of reburial in a formal War Cemetery. Again I am talking only about the British official involvement in undertaking such archaeological investigations of which there have been to my knowledge none.

If you have not done so already you may like to view this ongoing thread about the 15 sets of British soldiers remains found in France during the latter part of 2009.

Beaucamps-Ligny 15

Regards

Norman

Norman,

I must admit to not knowing of the circumstances regarding Boezinge, though I am always amazed at the commitment and dedication of "The Diggers" and visit the thread on them occasionally, I am disappointed in the formal British response you describe. Though without defending the MOD, the recovery of Britain's war dead of the 20th century is larger and infinitely harder than that of Australia's, in the context of current operation's and financial restrictions I imagine it is often difficult to justify some work in comparison to the need to get new body armour and helicopters operational to where they can do some real good today. Possibly Lambis and the Australian Army have set a precedent and standard for the future.

Judy,

I am certain you meant no disrespect, I didn't mean to come across as heavily as I did, and you didn't need to make an apology. I meant the post to be broader than the issue you mentioned and I apologise for addressing the response to you, I should have worded my post more eloquently, and then left it until the cold light of day to clean out any emotion.

Scotty,

Though way out of my own research interest and current projects, I am going to avidly read the papers you linked to. Thank you for posting it. I do note however that it is just one part of the file group, being the general correspondence file of the Court of Enquiry, do you know of the other files (not just the ones of the presumed future defendants referred to on this file cover).

Pals,

So it is not misunderstood where I come from, I met Mr Lee and his deputy Mr Brian Manns at a Deakin University week long (A)AHU sponsored Museum Management course for volunteers to Army Museums I attended in 2003, prior to my discharge from the Army, and have met them at one or two AHU history conferences I have attended since, or communicated with them occasionally on my own personal research. Though I am no longer involved with any Army museum or the Army, I get frustrated at insinuations that somehow today's Army and the AAHU is unhelpful on the subject (And I am just as passionate with friends who are also ex-services who bag the Army etcetera without thinking through the broader issues). The AAHU from memory isn't a large organisation, indeed I think it numbered under ten people back in my Army time. Just as in life, they are not static organisation's and if we think of the "operational tempo" of the past ten years, I imagine (with an understanding of what they may have to contend with) the AAHU are probably madly treading water just trying to keep up with collecting and recording the immediate past experiences (for future historians). At some point all organisations that have real responsibilities for today and the future have to move forward. That ther Army also recognise the value of, and assist, or expand upon the efforts of tremendous "amateurs" like Lambis Englezos and all of his friends such as Fedelmar and the Tim's, is fantastic, but we shouldn't necessarily be blaming today's Army and "bureaucrat's" for errors of the past, that is what I was trying to communicate.

As to Lambis I for one hope that one day he is awarded at least an Honorary Doctorate in Historiography. Though without being academically qualified myself, I would think he at least qualifies by his research for a 'real" doctorate or masters degree already. It would be nice to see a suitable Australian "sandstone" university award Lambis such recognition, he has no doubt done not just the Fromelles Fallen, their relatives and the Australian Army a great service, but he has done a great deal for raising the standing and exposure of historiography in the community with his efforts.

Kindest Regards to all.

Cheers,

Hendo

[green_acorn]

Tim L,

Thank you for the excellent summation of MAJ Allen's searches, indeed as you suggest, with all the benefit of hindsight on my behalf, it does seem as though MAJ Allen's searches were cursory. That the DAD and GRU office were not recording german burial/reburials beggars belief. Dare I say more of an area reconnaisance to see if further work by a Labour Corps unit was justified. Why he doesn't mention doing a "pole search" which required no special tooks or manpower, just an exceptionally strong stomach, of the sites I do wonder. I would have thought that poles would have been an essential tool of his work, which then became a site marker, as I believe was done post war on Gallipoli.

As always I am always in awe of your and others efforts with the Fromelles database, may I ask have you considered, or do you, map it across to "Analysts Notebook" and/or a GIS program?

Kindest Regards,

Chris Henderson

[ianw]

Major Allen seems to be a very interesting character. As I understand it, he was not a soldier but came in via the Australian Red Cross with his rank being honorary - it is suggested in the inquiry dossier that he might have been incapable of reading a military map. He also seems to have had a hip injury so one might wonder how mobile he was and how much detailed inspection of the ground he might have been physically capable of.

Given that Peter Barton believes that there are 30 burial pits in the Fromelles area (stated in the recent TV programme on UK TV), was there a general reluctance by both the British and Imperial clearance teams to clear these pits? Also is there any evidence that Fromelles as a diversionary attack may have escaped the level of scutiny given to the Somme and Ypres areas. Bullecourt is another secondary type of battlefield where there has also been rumours of significant numbers of unburied remains.

[Seadog]

I am reading with increasing disbelief and incredulity parts of the vast GRU report. I do not of course completely understand what is happening here but if you are reading this report please take a look at page 129 and then the hand-written notes by the Officer Lee which start on page 138 and concern apparent discoveries of Australian Graves in particular pages 142 and 143 are worth reading.

All these are addressed to AGS London and are written on just lined notepaper and many bear the added (in blue) note “Not in my time”. This is an amazing file but making any sense of it is very difficult. Hardly what we would expect from the Military I think.

Regards

Norman

Edited to add: Page 146 is not a nice read.

[ianw]

Yes, it's extraordinary. There is even a letter purportedly from French ladies from Villers B complaining about the Australian GRU troops debauching local women and girls. It refers to a fire at the camp when numerous ladies in a state of undress are observed evacuating the camp.

It would also seem that there are business opportunities in the area - obviously the troops have regular money in their pockets and it would seem some are deploying it advantageously.

Although Lt Lee has an obvious axe to grind, he does ask some interesting questions e.g why is the Major - ostensibly a successful business man - so keen to take up a £200 p.a GRU job.

Does anyone know hen the Major left his GRU job and what he may have done after this?

[Amor]

Apologies if somebody has already comented but due to the large number of postings on Fromelles I have not had time to read them all. I had the privelege of visting the cemetery on Tuesday, the day after the burial of the unknown soldier. It surprised me that there was a cross on his gravestone - I assume that as he is unknown - so is his religion? Some people had placed small stones on the top of the gravestone as done often on Jewish gravestones. Can anybody comment on why the GWGC would have a cross under these circumstances?

Rgds,

A Morris

[Auimfo]

Thanks Scotty. Knowing the truth now, the story behind the failure to locate these graves certainly reads of frustrating missed opportunities.

Ian, Obviously you're getting to the meat of all the allegations! The first time I read the file, my mouth gradually fell open in disbelief and my eyes almost popped out of my head. I especially like the accusation about one of the senior Australian officers passing around a photo of a recovered Australian skull in whose mouth they'd placed a cigarette and hat on it's head. Never proved but makes me wonder who would think of such an outrageous story unless some element of truth existed.

I've checked the graves mentioned in LEE's notes and found that the one's where the notation is added in blue along the lines of "Actioned by me" or similar, are now correctly listed on the CWGC. What concerns me is whether anyone ever did anything about the ones where the blue notation reads, "Not in my time". It seems whomever made the note is only concerned with addressing any errors made during his command.

It appears that LEE had actually served under fire and been decorated and was not particularly pleased with the job of locating the graves being given to an 'honorary' major who knew nothing of war. He seems to have believed that the johnny-come-lately' types were taking all the positions simply to add a feather in their own caps rather than because they were dedicated to the job.

Whether or not any of the allegations have any foundation, the entire document is an indictment on the disharmony that obviously existed in the Aust Graves Unit in the years immediately after the war. It really makes you wonder about the quality and thoroughness of the work.

Cheers,

Tim L.

Aussie soldiers with a bit of time and cash on their hands part owning estaminets and running a few few French maidens doing tricks.....Nah, like that would ever happen...

[SiegeGunner]

Another question that might be asked is whether VC Corner was made by the same AGS team(s) and how they managed to recover 400 sets of remains, all ostensibly Australian from 1916, from No-Man's Land, apparently without discovering any British remains from the Aubers Ridge battle over the same ground in 1915. Bean's photos from 1918 show sad little heaps of rags, boots and bones partly submerged in the grass, but evidently well enough preserved to at least be identified by nationality. It seems most unlikely that lying there for the additional 14 months would have degraded remains from 1915 to the point where they could not be recognised at all. So were 1915 remains perhaps indeed found and buried elsewhere? Or was NML perhaps even cleared at some point between May 1915 and July 1916? Testimony, or the absence of it, from men crossing NML in July 1916 and remarking on the presence of remains from the 1915 battle might cast light on this question.

Yet another question, perhaps, is whether whoever made VC Corner was also aware of the German reports of "five large British collective graves before Pheasant Wood". Two words in that phrase particularly strike me - 'British' and 'before'. Looking down from the ridge, there is another wood in front of Pheasant Wood, known to the Germans as the 'Schützenwald' (Shooters' Wood). Which end of which wood was 'before Pheasant Wood' understood to refer to? And then 'British' - a term the Germans never used, at least not in their own communications, where all British and Commonwealth troops were universally referred to as 'Engländer'. I presume that the (evidently British) recipients of the communication (which presumably was in German) translated 'Englisch' as 'British'. The use of the term 'collective graves' certainly suggests a translation of the German term 'Massengräber'. Was the AGS also concerned with recovering British bodies? If not, did the makers of VC Corner and/or later Major Allen perhaps overlook or ignore Pheasant Wood because it was reported to contain 'British' and not 'Australian' burials?

[ianw]

Tim,

I completely agree with your analysis. Even without being able to take a view on which officers to believe, the amount of acrimony existing would seem to suggest that the local command structure became completely disfunctional. In addition the NCOs and men are quite understandably making the most of local opportunities of all types. It's reminiscent of MASH and Catch 22.

Lee's rambling ranting letters give the impression that his psyche had suffered damage during the war, then during the clearance work and finally by his dismissal. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his life never recovered in the post war years. I would love to know the eventual fate of all the protagonists.

The questions that the state of the unit raises about the quality of the work it did are obvious and disturbing but it brings home the fact that "all human life" was there in the midst of that terrible physical manifestation of death on an industrial scale and the fecund spirit of life came through triumphant. No doubt a sardonic sense of humour was equally valuable during the battlefield clearances as during the war itself. I can believe the "Alas Poor Yorick" game after a few drinks - and more than a few drinks would have been needed to do that clearance job!

I think that this file is one of the most remarkable Great War documents I have ever seen - and I have only dipped into it a bit.

Regards Ian

[Fedelmar]

A Morris,

The boys have got themselves caught up in the excitement of the file contents and missed answering your post ... but they are to be forgiven

There was only one Jewish lad in the Fromelles Cemetery (Mendelsohn ... great uncle of actor Ben Mendelsohn)and he was buried with the intial lot.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Scotty]

Pals,

Here is Major Allan. I believe he was a non drinking Quaker. Scotty.

[Scotty]

A few shots of him on the job. Very jovial.