Fromelles - The searches past and present

[Fedelmar]

Hendo,

it wasn't a stroke.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[judy7007]

The Aussi who did the Exhortation got the first line wrong - 'They shall not grow old'

.

I have heard this a couple of times recently at important occasions. I was beginning to wonder if it is becoming acceptable. .

Judy

[David_Underdown]

Ian,

If you could see your way to releasing that photo under an appropraite licence, it would make a great addition to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fromelles_(Pheasant_Wood)_Military_Cemetery. Other photos of the ceremony would be welcome too.

[ShirlD]

Shirley,

she sat with me and watched the entire ceremony. Tears flowed at various points and then she told me she would like to go there one day. That I never expected.

On a side note, I think it's wonderful that a random unknown soldier, whether he be Australian or British, was buried with full military honours, in the presence of royalty, during a ceremony beamed live around the world. That's beautiful. Rest in peace soldier boy, gone and not forgotten.

Cheers Andy.

Our sentiments exactly

Cheers

Shirley

[ianw]

The audience was great at Fromelles - all nationalities , ages etc. The locals were there in force and , of course, a lot of Aussies.

And knowledgeable too - my abiding memory will be the prolonged warm applause that greeted Lambis' name.

A deservedly great send off for all those boys and men. I will treasure the memory for many a year and look forward to my next visit when I can get to know them better.

[judy7007]

The audience was great at Fromelles - all nationalities , ages etc. The locals were there in force and , of course, a lot of Aussies.

And knowledgeable too - my abiding memory will be the prolonged warm applause that greeted Lambis' name.

A deservedly great send off for all those boys and men. I will treasure the memory for many a year and look forward to my next visit when I can get to know them better.

I agree with every one of your points above. Yesterday's experience was one I will never forget. I am fortunate to be going back in September and will visit them then.

[Seadog]

Scotty your post No, 44 containing the document from the archives was most interesting. That the information regarding the fact that there were mass burial pits at Pheasant Wood was known by the Australian authorities as early as 1919 amazes me for having watched the documentary I was left with the impression that these were primarily discovered by comparing air photos and the fact that Peter Barton had found a German document detailing instructions for preparing the pits.

So this was known by the Australian authorities all the time it’s just that someone took 91 years to get around to excavating them. What about the one that is mentioned as being at Fournes, was that one ever excavated and the soldiers remains removed to a War Cemetery?.

Best Regards

Norman

Edited to add:

I see that there is a German WW1 War Cemetery at Fournes-en-Weppes and I therefore assume that the Commonwealth soldiers were buried in a mass grave within this cemetery?.No doubt that this has already been covered somewhere else but it is news to me.

[Scotty]

[quote What about the one that is mentioned as being at Fournes, was that one ever excavated and the soldiers remains removed to a War Cemetery?.

Best Regards

Norman

Edited to add:

I see that there is a German WW1 War Cemetery at Fournes-en-Weppes and I therefore assume that the Commonwealth soldiers were buried in a mass grave within this cemetery?.

Norman,

The contents of that document are discussed in 'Fromelles' by Patrick Lindsay (2007) pages 245-48. Although the existance of the Pheasant Wood pits were known, the archives indicate that only one man 'traversed' the area. That was Major A.Allan (AKA A Discoverer of Missing Men),Inspector of Australian Graves Services (Northern Section). The collective grave mentioned at Fournes was found to contain "five or six" British soldiers who were exhumed in May 1920. Major Allen's focus seems to have been the grave of Lieut. Burns, not the pits at Pheasant Wood. Other that that solitary expidition, nobody seems to have traversed the Pheasant Wood area until Lambis. Regards, Scotty.

[Seadog]

Thanks Scotty, my understanding now vastly improved. I did not join the GWF until 2007 and must have missed the topic.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Having looked again at a map of Fromelles, I now realise that my photo of the wagon and coffin was taken with it standing on the site of the Pheasant Wood pits. I suppose it is obvious that their journey took him from his old resting place to his new one. However, there was no one there to witness this - indeed I was asked to leave the area - I am impressed at the level of commitment and consideration to the deceased in this.

To quietly pause at the pits for a moment of calm and contemplation before the excitement of the ceremony was a lovely gesture. All concerned , men and horses could gather themselves.

[Scotty]

Ian,

Your photo of the wagon is a gem. Real goosebump stuff. Scotty.

[Simmo]

Hi All - did anyone happen to record any of the ceremony?

Regards,

Simmo.

[Auimfo]

Ian,

I wondered if you might be willing to share a higher resolution copy of the photo with me. It's a great image!!

I'd PM you but I don't think they're back on line yet and your email is private.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[judy7007]

Page 173 "......, in 1922, all the victorious governments had agreed that further active searching for war dead should cease. This was partially motivated by financial reasons - it was proving very expensive to retain graves recovery personnel in Europe. Bu the governments were also motivated by the desire to allow French and Belgian civilians in the battle zones to re-establish some semblance of normal life. Constant digging for missing soldiers and lost graves was disrupting attempts to build new infrastructure and establish new farms. .......................

Hendo,

I haven't read Mr Lee's book yet but intend to as soon as possible. I found your quote from page 173 of great interest. While there was no doubt a decision made to scale down the search for our war dead in 1922, the authorities were fully aware of the collective burial pits at Pheasant Wood as early as 1919. I have attached a document from the NAA clearly stating the existence of these pits, as well as a request to investigate the area. I still cannot understand why these graves were ignored and hundreds of families denied any closure. Scotty.

Thank you Scottty for the letter from NAA. It makes it even so much harder for me to understand why Lambis had such a difficult time making a case that the graves were there. It seems very clear that they were known about all along. I have also heard that Bean mentions them. (Haven't had time to look yet but will). We can only be so thankful that Lambis was so persistent.

Judy

[judy7007]

I had the privilege of being there today in splendid weather - now a bit sunburnt!

Arriving at around 11am on the Eurostar special to Lille and thence to Fromelles by a coach cavalcade with motorcycle outriders, I went exploring hoping to to get down to Pheasant Wood but it was out of bounds - but I did chance upon the wagon with the coffin aboard. The drivers and horses were just taking a breather away from the crowds in the countryside pretty much midway between the new cemetery and the old. It was almost as if they were giving the unknown Digger (if such he was) a last outing and a farewell look towards his old home before he was moved to his new home with a Prince of the Realm marching behind him. In the picture below the wagon and team is facing towards Pheasant Wood.

The ceremony itself was very nicely done. One great moment was the extended burst of applause from the public in the field when Lambis' name was mentioned by the Governor General. As often is the case, the crowd knows best who merits most their thanks.

I can't wait to visit again when the crowds dissipate and the cemetery takes its rightful place as simply the newest of all of these magnificent places.

I have to say that the Eurostar trip there and back was superb with good knowledgeable company inc a member of this Forum. A great day.

Thank you ianw for posting the image of the gun carriage - an unforgettable image really. I am hoping when I see a recording of the ceremony that there will be footage of the procession - I know I will find that very emotional - as I did when the gun carriage entered the cemetery. I heartily agree with all you have said. I wish though that I'd thought to explore a bit first instead of going straight to the enclosure. There was heaps of room and no ID was asked for - tickets yes, but no photographic ID.

The Eurostar trip was indeed superb. A hot breakfast going over and hot meal on the way back with champagne and wines served. Luckily I had taken a big hat - three people near us fainted.

It was indeed a huge privilege to be there and is something I will never forget.

Judy

[ianw]

Ian,

I wondered if you might be willing to share a higher resolution copy of the photo with me. It's a great image!!

I'd PM you but I don't think they're back on line yet and your email is private.

Cheers,

Tim L.

I fear I may have a problem with that as I may have inadvertently "zapped" the original larger image. I have some others but they are not as good - I had to take the shots quickly with 2 grumpy gendarmes wanting me to leave the area tout de suite and was also a good way away so had to use the full telephoto. I just got lucky with the original shot. Absolutely maddening but there you go.

However, happy to send you what I have got.

Regards Ian

[unitedsound]

I was lucky to stumble upon the Sunday rehearsal.

Suddenly I could hear music in the distance, and around the corner, at the top of the hill, came the cortege led by drums and flutes.

The sound of "Thine is the Glory" engulfed me as the cortege got closer..

Having spent the previous two days in Flanders Fields, this was a mind-blowing moment and one I shall never forget.

I hoped to see this on BBC when I got home but I don't think they showed it.

A magnificent opportunity lost.

David

[green_acorn]

Thank you Scottty for the letter from NAA. It makes it even so much harder for me to understand why Lambis had such a difficult time making a case that the graves were there. It seems very clear that they were known about all along. I have also heard that Bean mentions them. (Haven't had time to look yet but will). We can only be so thankful that Lambis was so persistent.

Judy

Judy/Pals,

I too am thankful that Lambis persisted, as I am sure everyone is, irrespective of their standing in the proceedings. I would however, as a very proud former member of the Australian Army (who as a peripheral and indirect volunteer has had occasional minor dealings with the AAHU), challenge and take exception to the statement that "It seems very clear that they were known about all along." which I believes implies a desire to ignore, hide or deny the truth on the part of the Australian Army. Having a record on an archived file at the TNA does not mean that it is "known all along" it means that someone knew of it back in 1919 on the day it was received and processed onto the file; and that no one (apparently) had the opportunity to investigate further and verify the truth prior to 1922; and that in the intervening years no one has had the knowledge or ability to find the information - The TNA Kew is some distance from Canberra. Do I "blame" the Australian Army for not looking for the Fromelles Fallen until Lambis provided sufficient evidence for them to do so? Emphatically no. Do I blame the CWGC? No it is not their function, theirs, essentially, is to maintain the cemeteries and commemorate the fallen.

Irrespective of the mult nation government decision of 1922, at some point the Army/nation had to move forward to the challenges ahead, whether that be the rebuilding of France and Belgium, the Great Depression, WW2, the Holocaust, the Korean and Vietnam Wars, al Qaeda and all the other trial and tribulations we have been through and will go through. Under those circumstances do we honestly and reasonably expect organisations, like the Army, to have continuing focus on specific situations such as this - no we can't. Just as some murders go unsolved until someone with a passion (such as Lambis) finds, or the police are given sufficient new evidence or the police make the light bulb moment during a periodic review, the police have to put aside the unsolved and continue on with new tasks and challenges, no matter how much it may pain the relatives of the deceased and the investigators and yes it is an economic/management/personnel resources decision - do we then blame the investigating police or the police force concerned for not solving the case earlier - no.

Next, as I am sure any member of the forum that are police officers will tell us, there are always people with a hypothesis of what happened during a crime, many who are extremely plausible, but often their evidence and stories are not true or are just too circumstantial to follow up, and I am certain, having been in positions where I was referred some weirder approaches to the Army, that the Army has had numerous approaches over the years about the Fromelles Fallen and many other missing soldiers. We should be thankful that Lambis didn't approach them with insufficient evidence, logic and reasoning to be ranked as crank, talking to me, and that the Australian Army History Unit had the honesty to first ask Lambis to present his evidence to an expert panel and that they then had sufficient trust in what he had presented to ask him to come back with more and better reasoned case.

Then there is the case of hindsight, do we know that that single document in the TNA being referred to was available to the right person at the right time for actual ground investigation? No. It is hardly as though they had the Internet and Google indexing everything or the technical resources of today (their technical aid was a long pole pushed into the ground, they then pulled the pole out to smell it). It took thousands of clerical staff just to manage the filing, let alone for some of them to have the understanding and knowledge that something was a unique piece of evidence that had not been investigated sufficiently (Did the clerk filing it even know if the spot had been checked?). If anything we should be thankful that a confluence of research tools, evidence accessibility, archaeological expertise and other factors came together, in the extraordinary commitment and diligence of Lambis and friends to the task, in providing sufficient evidence and plausible reasoning for the Army to accept his case and investigate formally.

As other GWF members can tell us, the Australian Army as does the UK, NZ and US Army goes to extraordinary efforts to recover their fallen, if they can. I can think of a number of case from Vietnam where once the evidence has been presented, usually by concerned and committed veterans groups, the Australian Army has gone to extraordinary measures to find their fallen. In one case a close friend was sent along with a small group of officers to Vietnam, in the early 80's when we did not have a formal diplomatic presence or agreement with our former enemy the Vietnamese (yes the Vietnamese government agreed to the visit), to find a soldier, Pte David Fisher, who had fallen from a rope suspended below a helicopter, flying at speed, at height, under fire, in an area that had been heavily bombed. No they didn't find him, but with the commitment of veterans who, just like Lambis, diligently kept on the case and the assistance of a light bulb moment of a formal investigators who got university mathematics students to calculate velocity, height, speed, likely trajectory; the other evidence that came to light, and the exceptional development of a unique diplomatic relationship which allowed multiple searches, they recovered PTE Fisher in 2008.

Anyway thats my view and I will get of my soap box. I hope that people can be a little more forgiving and understanding of the Army (and MODUK for that matter) and its faceless bureaucrats, I don't think it does the "bureaucrats" justice, just as it does not elevate the standing of the volunteers or researchers (And I am not aiming this at you Judy) who imply otherwise, or try for one-upmanship by making announcements early.

As always I hope Lambis's future endeavours are as successful as this first investigation, and I would be honoured to help him. I also hope that similar endeavours of other GWF Pals in locating, identifying and recognising our fallen of all wars are as successful as Lambis's.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Seadog]

A very comprehensive post Hendo and no doubt many would agree with the majority of what you say. However I see that you include the UK in the list of those "who go to extraordinary efforts to recover their fallen, if they can". I think that the facts, certainly in respect of WW1 do not support this statement. Just one example is that of the Industrial developments around the village of Boezinge near Ypres. It took the unofficial group known as the "Diggers" to undertake the excavation and removal of the remains of at least 66 British soldiers found at this site over a period of years and I understand that not one was identified by name.

There were also German and French remains found, a total of nearly 200 individual soldiers, in fact prior to Pheasant Wood this was the largest "find" of WW1 soldiers made. At no time did the British MOD take an active role in the excavations or recording of the men and it was left to the "Diggers" to find the fallen on the site in order that they should have the dignity of reburial in a formal War Cemetery. Again I am talking only about the British official involvement in undertaking such archeological investigations of which there have been to my knowledge none.

If you have not done so already you may like to view this ongoing thread about the 15 sets of British soldiers remains found in France during the latter part of 2009.

Beaucamps-Ligny 15

Regards

Norman

[matthew lucas]

I had the privilege of being there today in splendid weather - now a bit sunburnt!

Arriving at around 11am on the Eurostar special to Lille and thence to Fromelles by a coach cavalcade with motorcycle outriders, I went exploring hoping to to get down to Pheasant Wood but it was out of bounds - but I did chance upon the wagon with the coffin aboard. The drivers and horses were just taking a breather away from the crowds in the countryside pretty much midway between the new cemetery and the old. It was almost as if they were giving the unknown Digger (if such he was) a last outing and a farewell look towards his old home before he was moved to his new home with a Prince of the Realm marching behind him. In the picture below the wagon and team is facing towards Pheasant Wood.

The ceremony itself was very nicely done. One great moment was the extended burst of applause from the public in the field when Lambis' name was mentioned by the Governor General. As often is the case, the crowd knows best who merits most their thanks.

I can't wait to visit again when the crowds dissipate and the cemetery takes its rightful place as simply the newest of all of these magnificent places.

I have to say that the Eurostar trip there and back was superb with good knowledgeable company inc a member of this Forum. A great day.

[matthew lucas]

what a day! can't add anything here, will put pics on once i've got them off the camara

matt

[judy7007]

Judy/Pals,

"...It seems very clear that they were known about all along." which I believes implies a desire to ignore, hide or deny the truth ...

Cheers,

Hendo

Hendo

Definitely very untidy expression without thought of the implications you mention which I now see are quite obvious but which were definitely not intended. My apologies.

Judy

[Seadog]

I see no need whatsoever for you to apologise Judy, for they "were known about all along" and whatever connotation other people choose to apply to that statement is entirely up to them. After all the evidence was there whether available on the internet or in hard copy by searching the archives so your statement is correct as I see it.

Best Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I think we have to remember the circumstances in which the battlefield clearance work was done immediately after the Great War. Teams were working in a blasted and devastated region. Men were thinking of home and must have had an overwhelming urge to get the job done.

Whilst our experience of the Western Front is of recovered region dotted with the beautiful cemeteries that we cherish, the troops doing the clearances would have had the sickening job of removing remains from one hole in the ground to move them to another hole in the ground of which the difference was perhaps only that the second hole was in a place formally designated as a cemetery.

There must have been a great temptation to let sleeping Diggers and Tommies lie and to perhaps concentrate on the individual graves on the surface. Looking at the body recovery density maps, they were certainly working hard at a job that must have been a continual horror and about as taxing and distressing to the human spirit as can be imagined.

So if pits were deliberately ignored or the information in this pre-computer age not acted upon , we shouldn't be to swift to point the finger. Better that we just accept that we have inherited the task and get on with doing what we can now.

[SiegeGunner]

Then there is the case of hindsight, do we know that that single document in the TNA being referred to was available to the right person at the right time for actual ground investigation?

There is a file running to something like 800 pages on an enquiry (in 1921, if I remember correctly) into alleged malpractices in the Australian Graves Service in France after the war. It is available online from either the AWM or the National Archives of Australia (I have lost my bookmark to it). It also refers to the German reports of mass graves at Pheasant Wood and Major Allen's visit to Fromelles and Fournes.