Fromelles - The searches past and present

[Scotty]

A few more. I believe the small blue hand writing at the bottom of many of the documents belongs to Capt. Spedding. Scotty.

[Auimfo]

And then 'British' - a term the Germans never used, at least not in their own communications, where all British and Commonwealth troops were universally referred to as 'Engländer'. I presume that the (evidently British) recipients of the communication (which presumably was in German) translated 'Englisch' as 'British'. The use of the term 'collective graves' certainly suggests a translation of the German term 'Massengräber'. Was the AGS also concerned with recovering British bodies? If not, did the makers of VC Corner and/or later Major Allen perhaps overlook or ignore Pheasant Wood because it was reported to contain 'British' and not 'Australian' burials?

Interesting that you wrote that Siege. According to his notes, the inscription on the cross located by ALLEN at Fournes read as follows,

MASSENGRAB

der am Getechtv 19/20 Juli 1916.

ber Fromelles.

Gestallen Englander.

(I suspect 'Gestallen' is meant to be 'Gefallen' but haven't yet worked out what 'Getechtv' is)

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

Just been reading some of the LEE's letters and doing some checking.

His November 1919 description of the exhumed grave on page 146 of the file is as follows:

"I have to point out the apparant neglect of graves unit working in vicinity of Peronne 62.C.I.21. One grave containing 7 Australians including (Lieut Anslow 53rd Bn 3457 Sgt Taylor W.S. 3307 Cpl H--wett 3563 L/Cpl Kent C.C.) the remainder of names are indecipherable on the board left beside the old grave. Many bones, some 15 or 20 including top and bottom jawbones were left strewn around the grave. My informant of this particular instance states many more bones were there for several weeks and had been removed by vermin. The grave after the bodies had been exhumed being only partly filled in. The work altogether has been done in a grossly careless manner and I would recommend the attention of DGGRE be drawn to this matter."

A photo from the files of the AWM depicts this grave is it was over twelve months before in September 1918, pre-exhumation.

Description:

View of the grave of Lieutenant (Lt) R. Anslow and six men of his platoon of the 53rd Battalion, who on 1 September 1918, were buried on the spot where a barrage of 5.9 inch shells landed, leaving but two survivors of a platoon already decimated in the attack near Peronne. Named on the cross are: Lt R. Anslow; 3457 Sergeant W. S. Taylor; 3563 (3563A) Private (Pte) Charles George Ries; 3307 Corporal A. F. Hayward; 2010 Lance Corporal (L Cpl) C. L. Upton; 3185 Pte W. H. Masson; 3125 L Cpl W. P. Barrie. Note the two damaged helmets in the foreground which were worn by the men at the time.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Seadog]

I am possibly stating the blindingly obvious but for my sake here goes. The note (In blue) on Lees letter (146) reads:

Matter finished ?? myself at Australia House Lee files there.

(Signed) Spedding

The note is dated 13/11/19 and the excellent photo posted on the forum is dated September 1918. The men whose names are recorded are buried as follows in Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension with separate grave (?) references. The mass grave must have been re-excavated sometime after Lees visit and the remains separated into individual burials as below.

Anslow V C 4

Ries V C 5

Taylor V C 6

Hayward V C 7

Upton V C 8

Masson V C 9

Barrie V C 10

Regards

Norman

PS : If any of you excellent researchers out there have a few hours to spare can you produce a “Cast List” of the people in the GRU report so that people like me can get as is were a “handle” on who is who?.

[SiegeGunner]

Interesting that you wrote that Siege. According to his notes, the inscription on the cross located by ALLEN at Fournes read as follows,

MASSENGRAB

der am Getechtv 19/20 Juli 1916.

ber Fromelles.

Gestallen Englander.

(I suspect 'Gestallen' is meant to be 'Gefallen' but haven't yet worked out what 'Getechtv' is)

Almost certainly "Massengrab der im Gefecht 19./20. Juli 1916 bei Fromelles gefallenen Engländer".

[Seadog]

OR:

'Mass grave in the battle 19-20. July 1916 British fallen.`

Norman

[ianw]

Does the word "Englander" in this context also cover the plural?

Thanks for the pics Scotty.

I get the impression that "Major" Allan could be a very irritating man.

[ianw]

My impressions so far is that the Australian GRU had morphed into a semi-civilian organisation with a reduction in the application of military discipline - in a sergeant's letter of complaint he confirms that they were living as civilians. As usual some people when given an inch take a yard. The imposition of Major Phillips seems to be an attempt to restore discipline.

One can quite understand that fighting officers might well have been willing to cut former fighting troops some slack given that the war was over and due to the ghastly job they were doing. However, the behaviour of both officers and men in relation to dubious business activities and casual relationships with local women is bound to provoke a reaction from on high when discovered. One get's the impression that the fringe benefits of the GRU jobs are seen as a reward for the soldier's war service and that perhaps the former fighting troops enjoy these perks on behalf of the men whose remains they are collecting.

It is clear from the tone of questioning at the inquiry that GRU jobs are potentially lucrative - significant sums are paid out for subsistence,

petrol is a valuable commodity but can be had on request by itinerant soldiers as long as it goes into the petrol tank of their cars. Similarly tyres can be had if the punctured tyre is handed in.

There is a suspicion among the men that these plum GRU jobs are in the process being handed to hated former military policemen. In the sergeant's letter of complaint he makes the extraordinary statement that the typical soldier would rather see the bones of his fallen comrades rot on the ground than see them collected by military policemen. The troops hate the "jacks" as they call them.

Lee seems genuinely concerned that the body recovery job is done well but did he and his fellow fighting officers allow discipline to decay so much that indifferent fieldwork from his men is inevitable - can meticulous exhumation work be expected from men who have businesses to run at their home base and female company awaiting them there.

[ianw]

A

The boys have got themselves caught up in the excitement of the file contents and missed answering your post ... but they are to be forgiven

Bright Blessings

Sandra

A spot on bit of analysis there Sandra !

[Neil Mackenzie]

Very moving event and well done the BBC for excellent coverage. Robert Hall always does a very good job.

A few errors were annoying.

Both the Duke of Kent (President CWGC) and the reporter on BBC News at 6 o'clock made the same mistake - first CWGC cemetery for 50 years. This should probably have been 'in Europe'. There are 14 British servicemen buried in Blue Beach Military Cemetery, San Carlos, Falkland Islands - a cemetery not listed on the CWGC web site but designed and constructed with their help. The men have a CWGC headstone.

Alan.

Technically this is not a CWGC cemtery - although it may be in the style of one - but is an MoD managed cemetery. This also explains why it is not listed on the CWGC web site.

The CWGC charter covers the qualifying dates relating to the two world wars so would not cover these men. In several locations the CWGC do manage graves on behalf of the MoD but the latter retain legal responsibility for them.

Neil

Neil

[Scotty]

An example of AGS wages. Scotty.

[ianw]

Most interesting, Scotty.

I think the average industrial wage in England was approx £150 a year (£3 a week) at this time. I suspect the equivalent wage in France would be lower so these guys would have been very well-heeled and living the good life in France and Belgium. Also these salaries could be augmented by around £5 per week in subsistence allowances if you were travelling - units such as the photographers did a lot of this. With the subsistence allowance,pay would be brought up to that of a junior officer.

The value of the franc weakened a great deal throughout the war and this trend continued in the 20s. These soldiers would have got consistently wealthier in franc terms as time progressed and one can quite understand why they resented being sent back home early and why other soldiers coveted these jobs.

[SiegeGunner]

Does the word "Englander" in this context also cover the plural?

Engländer is the same in both the singular and plural forms, but you can tell the number from the preceding definite article (and also from the agreement of the adjective). In this case it is plural, as of course it has to be to be a 'Massengrab'.

Massengrab der im Gefecht 19./20. Juli 1916 bei Fromelles gefallenen Engländer

Collective grave of British fallen of the battle at Fromelles 19/20 July 1916

A word on 'Massengrab', which tends to provokes excitement when encountered in German records. It means a collective grave containing more than two burials, so not every 'Massengrab' is a mass grave in the English sense of the term, which generally supposes a large number of bodies buried together.

[Seadog]

For the sake of clarity can someone confirm my understanding that the role of the Australian GRU did not include the initial exhumation of any found graves. It was I believe the prime responsibility of the British exhumation units to undertake this unpleasant but necessary task. As seems clear from the document that Scotty has kindly posted the GRU function was just that, recording of Australian war graves plus the photographing of said graves together with a advisory role in respect of queries from relatives, plus finally attempts at identification using artefacts already removed from the original resting place of the fallen and some sort of responsibilities with regard to Australian memorials. Please correct me if I am in error with my understanding.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I just cannot understand how Major Allan or anyone else concluded that it was Lt Burns who was buried at Fournes. There is no information to support this conclusion. Therefore, Phillips and Allan were likely to be left with much egg on face if Mr Smith went to France for the exhumation which it was admitted in one of the testimonies could have taken the form of a bundle of straw made to look like a corpse - it is not explained why this might have been the case!! Hence they tried to cover their tracks.

It is difficult not to get the impression that Lt Lee was scape-goated here. He was not a gentleman and not too well educated but his heart seemed to be in the right place. A Lt-Colonel gives the impression that Lee may have been incompetent because Lee didn't have a comprehensive set of train-timetables in his Amiens office. The Lt-Colonel was a bit miffed by the delay in making his travel arrangements back to Poperinghe!

Of course Major Phillips in contrast was a gentleman having been known to Brig-General Jess since Melbourne Grammar school in 1906! He also was wounded badly in 1915 and well respected.

I love the testimony about Captain Kingston who apparently liked his drink and encouraged his subordinates to call him "Charles the B*****d". The virtuous ladies of Villers B write to Lee asking him to do something about the debauches of Captain Kingston which may be an indication that Lee was one of the good guys. Who knows.

The Inquiry ended up with large amounts of whitewash being applied to avoid the stories of wenching, drinking and possible corruption getting in the public domain. It is noted that the Australian P.M was giving consideration to the future of the Graves Service. What conclusion did he come to?

Does anyone know if there were relatives of Lt Burns at the recent Fromelles service? If so, I wonder if they are aware of the controversy that accompanied his first premature exhumation?

What a fascinating amalgam of stories.

[Peter Woodger]

Seadog

Between March and August 1919 the Australian Graves Detachment, over 1000 men, exhumed and reburied abreast of the Somme river burying in Adelaide, Crucifix Corner, Villers-Bretonneux and Heath cemeteries. After August 1919 the Australian GRU did not make exhumations or reburials.

Peter

[Scotty]

Peter is correct. The document attached to post #44 is dated at the time those 1000 men were engaged in exhumation work. Surely a detachment could have had a good look for the pits before August 1919. The whole business with the AGS is a real eye opener. It gives new meaning to the term 'On Active Service'. In the words of Brian's mum...they weren't Messiahs, they were very naughty boys. Scotty.

[Auimfo]

I am possibly stating the blindingly obvious but for my sake here goes. The note (In blue) on Lee’s letter (146) reads:

“Matter finished ?? myself at Australia House Lee files there.”

(Signed) Spedding

The note is dated 13/11/19 and the excellent photo posted on the forum is dated September 1918. The men whose names are recorded are buried as follows in Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension with separate grave (?) references. The mass grave must have been re-excavated sometime after Lees visit and the remains separated into individual burials as below.

Norman,

I think you'll find these men were initially buried when they were killed in September 1918 and the photo of their grave taken shortly thereafter.

Lee was making his complaint in November 1919 after the grave had been exhumed and the bodies reburied at Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension. He claims that the work to exhume them was shoddily done and that there were numerous bones left lying around on the ground by the exhumation party. The fact that the bones had been lying around for several weeks according to his informant would indicate that the 'majority' of each body had already been reburied and these bones were just carelessly ignored. In other words, the existing graves of these seven men might not actually contain as much of each of them as might have been possible had a little bit of care and respect been shown.

Considering that it was the labour companies performing the actual exhumations, it makes you wonder how often this kind of carelessness might have occured (assuming Lee is being reasonably accurate)

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Scotty]

I'm quite relieved that the remains of my g-uncle were exhumed by the French.

[Seadog]

Thanks for all of the info posted here, much appreciated.

Regards

Norman

[dfaulder]

This document has been previously referenced on this Forum (probably how I found it!), but may give some interesting background from a predominantly British perspective.

Clearing the Dead by Peter E. Hodgkinson | the clearance and burial of the remains of British soldiers from the Great War battlefields | WWI Resource Centre

David

[Scotty]

Thank you for the link David. I look forward to reading it. Scotty

[green_acorn]

.......................................

Considering that it was the labour companies performing the actual exhumations, it makes you wonder how often this kind of carelessness might have occured (assuming Lee is being reasonably accurate)

Cheers,

Tim L.

Tim,

From my superficial initial reading of the file, I would add to your comment by saying that there appears to have been a lack of actual, and appropriate, (Australian and/or British) supervision of the Labour Corps (Chinese, Indian, African Labour Corps, whichever) Detachments during the exhumations. We all know of instances where appropriate cultural, ethnic and religious standards and respect are not applied when this occurs.

Cheers,

Hendo

[ianw]

The truth is that all those units involved in GRU work were under time and cost pressure to get the job finished. This was bound to lead to corners being cut, massaging of the statistics and a lack of concentration on securing IDs.

It would appear that when the army units had all left by May 1921 bodies were still being found at a rate of 200 a day. To claim the job was anything like finished was nonsensical but this was the impression that officialdom tried to give.

To a degree the job of securing the Fromelles IDs should be seen as a token of apology to all those Dead of all nationalities that were denied a known grave. It is ironic that those who fell at Fromelles may have suffered neglect in the 1920's but had the "last laugh" as that neglect, coupled with the passage of time, afforded a large number of them IDs through the new technology of DNA identification. Lt Burns being a superb example with his new named grave at Fromelles giving the metaphorical finger to the neglect in 1920.

[Peter Woodger]

Pals

I do not think that it alters the sentiment of Hendo’s point but for clarity there was no use of Chinese, Indian or African Labour Corps in the main 1919 clearance and concentration process. I quite believe that in their work of clearing debris, munitions and filling shell holes and trenches they would have discovered bodies but they were not formally given areas to search.

A detachment of Canadians cleared around Courcelette and the Australians around Villers-Bretonneux (not Pozieres as is often stated). The rest of the area allotted to Britain was cleared by British Labour Companies. Other areas were cleared by the French.

Peter