The Beaucamps Ligny 15

[ianw]

Yes, I suppose it should be possible to identify the German units who may have been involved in the local fighting.

[deano]

I am as you know in contact with the grandson of Larrett Roebuck,one of the possible 58. He has had a reply from JCCC today. Basically yes they will try to ID the remains using DNA etc etc just like Fromelles. BUT - Afganistan takes precedence, so does the other 40 historical cases they already have and that it may take 'many years' to get around to the Beaucamps Ligny 15.

I've asked the grandson if i can post the reply up here in full and await his response.

regards

Dean.

[ianw]

That doesn't seem to me to be an unreasonable response from the JCCC - although one could carp about the resources available to them but it's the times we live in.

If private enterprise can do a bit of the spadework, it would certainly help I suppose.

[deano]

My thoughts exactly Ian re some of the 'spadework'.

Also having seen the contact details of the author of the response to Larretts grandson, would it be a good idea to try and garner an 'official' statement re this case for the benefit of the forum ?

Dean.

[PBI]

I note that the Australians have a (Small) Military presence in Afghanistan,and that it didnt hinder expenditure on the Fromelles Project.Secondly would the MOD let a private organisation carry out DNA testing on the remains ?,again i note that this didnt seem to be a problem with the Fromelles Project.I reckon that the MOD will simply stonewall us all for as long as it is feasibly possible in the hope that people involved with the BL-15 will simply lose interest,or give up fighting the Faceless wonders of the MOD and let the matter rest.Then the MOD will be able to tuck these men away quickly and quietly with the bare minimum of ceremony and media attention as they have been shown to do in past cases.

[deano]

Reply from JCCC to Frank Wood, Larretts grandson -

"Dear Mr Wood

Thank you for the email which has been forwarded from my colleague in

Australia regarding your grandfather Lance Corporal Larrett Roebuck who

was serving with the York and Lancaster Regiment when he was killed in

1914. You correctly state that remains have been found at

Beaucamps-Ligny and they are currently in the safe custody of the

Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) Whilst some physical evidence

has been recovered that suggests at least some of the 15 sets of remains

may be soldiers of the 2nd Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment, the

identity of the soldiers has yet to be confirmed. We are at present

liaising with the CWGC, the York and Lancaster Regimental Association

and Corporate Memory (the Army Historical Branch) Initially attempts at

identification will concentrate on documentary and forensic analysis and

comparisons but DNA testing will be used, provided the remains recovered

can be linked to a readily identifiable group and candidates suitable

for obtaining a DNA sample for comparison can be traced.

Any new discovery of human remains will now inevitably draw comparison

with the large scale operation undertaken at Fromelles, which involved a

full archaeological excavation funded by the British and Australian

Governments, extensive searches for relatives and DNA testing to try to

identify the soldiers buried there. Although tracing of relatives and

DNA testing can be achieved in relation to other finds, the recovery

methods used in most cases are different to those undertaken at

Fromelles. The initial discovery of remains are normally found by the

general public, or as a result of building activity/ farming and not by

archaeological excavation, with representatives of the host government

or CWGC ( if asked) completing the excavation rather than by groups

employed by, or on behalf of, the British Government.

The Joint Casualty and Compassionate will seek to progress the

identification work on the skeletons recovered at Beaucamps-Ligny as

quickly as possible, but case work arising from current casualties on

operations in Afghanistan and elsewhere, remain our overriding priority.

As a result with only two members of the JCCC staff permanently assigned

to commemorative casework and a caseload of some 40 historic cases where

human remains have or are likely to discovered, including ongoing work

arising from Fromelles, which is a four year project, it may take many

years to identify the Beaucamps-Ligny remains and any firm plans for

reburial organised.

Now that I have your details I will keep you updated of developments

however, in the interim please do not hesitate to contact me direct if

you have any further questions.

Regards Sue "

I have also literally just been phoned by Colonel Geoffrey Norton of the York and Lancaster Regimental Association for a meet up tomorrow at Endcliffe Halll here in Sheffield.

Dean.

[ianw]

Dean,

Thanks for that. I interprete this letter as confirming that they do not propose to simply bury these remains at any date in the near future and that they intend to pursue identification eventually.

Good luck with your meeting at the regimental association.

Regards Ian

[spof]

Dean

Thank you for the wonderful work you've done this far. Can I also ask you to you pass on my thanks to Frank Wood for allowing you to publish his response from JCCC.

I had assumed there would be other cases in the pipeline but must admit the Identification Panel for Pheasant Wood had slipped my mind. (Familiarity breeds etc) .

So, it looks like we are in for the long haul. It took Lambis Englezos 5 years to get approval for the first search but this is a different situation as the remains are already recovered.What is also different is the location - Pheasant Wood was at the bottom of a hill and was always damp but BL is higher up so if it was wet and then dry, viable DNA may not be possible to collect.

The idea of hiring a researcher to go to Geneva is not possible as the RC do not allow individuals to go through their archives. Peter Barton got in due to the fact he had 2 governments asking for him to have access. You need a name and rough date and I've recently seen a post on the forum where the person got a reply 54 weeks after asking. The first step would be to look in the German archives for battalion/Division reports (but like the UK, a lot was lost in the WW2) There are several German Army experts on the forum who might be able to help - Jack Sheldon, Ralph Whitehead, Bob Lembke etc.

Glen

[dfaulder]

When recently trying (unsuccessfully I'm afraid) to get coverage for one of the 58, I was aware that we lack material. Newspaper/Websites and TV like "visuals".

We have a link to the original French discovery (see earlier in this thread), but it would be nice if we also had:

• Photos of the 58 (I guess we need to search local papers for each one)
• Photos of their name as "one of many" on the memorials to the missing, together with a general view of the memorials - so many do not appreciate the vastness of these memorials and the sheer number of names.

The man I was covering, William Alfred Singyard, is commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial (panel 8); anyone going near there who could take a couple of pictures? Has anyone gone through Mel's list and documented where each man is commemorated - I imagine there are others on Ploegsteert Memorial?

In addition a good photo of the battle-field "last seen here 96 years ago" would be useful.

David

[PBI]

I do not think that there would be a Battlefield as such.More likely that the Fighting took place in the Village itself.Hence the discovery of the remains IN the Village environs itself.Maybe a Forum member has some Postcards of the Village before/during the War.Beaucamps itself was a Seperate Village from Ligny up until 1927 when both communes were joined together.

[MelPack]

David

All 58 are commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial so if anyone is visiting in the near future then photographs of the names would be a very welcome addition to the data bank that I have developed.

I am slowly accumulating photographs of the men as I establish contacts with the relatives. Dean has kindly provided photos for a half dozen of the Sheffield men; Dave of the WFA Forum has kindly provided four for the Leeds men and Jim Mitchell has kindly agreed to search the Doncaster papers for the five men from that area. Less than half the men had a Yorkshire connection and the rest come from all over England including a Scotsman who previously served as aregular with the Somerset Light Infantry!

There are a number of points that have been raised in different posts which may be better addressing in a single post that I will settle in detail later.

Mel

[deano]

My reply from David Blunkett MP, after making representations to Liam Fox MP, secretary of state for defence, arrived this afternoon. Bascically the same as the JCCC reply to Larretts grandson.

I quote the last paragraph -

"However, the Government remains committed to ensuring that those who gave their life in the service of this country, irrespective of how long ago that occured, are appropriately honoured and laid to rest in a suitable location and that any news on the indentification of remains is conveyed in an appropriate and sympathic manner. Every effort will therefore be made to positively identify those recovered at Beaucamps-Ligny and, once this work is complete, to re-bury them with due ceremony in a suitable military cemetery in France.

I hope this explains the position "

Dean.

[Seadog]

Hiya all, I have today received from my MP a similar attached letter from the MOD as already posted here. I have responded by requesting the MP that she again contact the MOD and request that the same method of dissemination of information to the public as was utilised in the case of the Pheasant Wood fallen should also be applied in this case. This means that a dedicated web page will be produced by the CWGC/MOD listing the details of the 58 soldiers and similar to Pheasant Wood detailing the procedure to be used by those who feel that they are related to the soldiers and are able to provided suitable DNA samples. In addition I have requested that a FULL media press release be made to all the usual suspects.

In my opinion the last full paragraph of the MOD letter was pure and unadulterated waffle. The suggestion that anyone with “information” contact their MP is pure rubbish and I have no doubt that the majority of the letter is intended to placate those who would insist that these men are treated with the same dignity and of level of investigation that the finds at Pheasant Wood most certainly were.

Regards

Norman

[MelPack]

Regardless, we have a list of 58 names which is probably too many. It needs to be around 30 at most.

Glen

There are a number of sound reasons for the inclusion of all the 58 missing for the period between 18-25 October 1914.

The 2nd Battalion Y&Ls were involved in two bloody engagements during that week. The first was on the 18th when they encountered numerically superior German forces just north east of Beaucamps as they conducted a sweeping manoeuvre from Radinghem. No fighting occurred in Beaucamps itself which remained under German occupation from shortly after the fall of Lille right through until October 1918.

The second occasion was at dawn on 23 October when the Y&L's trenches were overrun at a crossroads on the Bois Grenier- Radinghem road resulting in bayonet charges and bloody hand to hand combat. This position was about 600 metres short of where the eventual trench line was to be settled that remained virtually static until the Battle of the Lys in April 1918. The Y&Ls had withdrawn to that position by 26 October.

It would be inappropriate to select the missing from the actions on 18 October or 23 October to the exclusion of the other.

It is clear from the documentary evidence that is available that the officially recorded date of death of some of the missing does not necessarily tally with the actual date of death which is hardly surprising given the difficulties of taking an effective roll call in circumstances of fluid combat.

The proximity of the fighting to Beaucamps on 18 October would seem to favour the missing for that action and yet we know that the unknown Y&L soldier recovered from the Mayor's garden is almost certainly one of the two missing officers killed on 23 October (although their official dates of death are 22 October).

Perhaps the most important factor is that the BL 15 were not buried in a single grave but three separate ones consisting of eight, six and one respectively - all of which is possibly indicative that they were buried not only on separate occasions but also on different dates.

The 58 are there for very good reasons and in my view this is not an excessive number. It offers a 4:1 chance of a positive identification which is considerably better than the 110:1 chance that we have with our ongoing identification work with Fromelles.

Mel

[MelPack]

I tend to agree with a number of other posters that there is a degree of ambiguity in the standard Ministerial response that has been settled but it is no more that I would anticipate given the circumlocution involved.

I think that a couple of points need clearing up. The MoD has already embraced the use of DNA testing beyond the Fromelles project for the identification of historic casualties but this has been confined to instances where there are a few possible candidates.

Although it has been confirmed that the initial exercise in identification will be confined to the use of documentary and forensic analysis, neither of these approaches are likely to make much headway. The only distinctive artefact found with the remains are the Sergeant's stripes which if all the men are Y&Lers then that particular set of remains can only belong to one of two or possibly three candidates. The osteology is unlikely to yield anything that would lead to a strong indicator for possible identification.

Once the aforesaid avenues have been exhausted then DNA testing remains the only route to any possible identifications. I am now confident that path will eventually be followed because the issue is now in the public arena thanks to the lobbying that has taken place. I may be over optimistic but I cannot envisage a Minister imposing an embargo on the DNA route in circumstances where there is a very strong possibility of positive identifications being made.

That said, it is clear that this project is going to take a good period of time to come to fruition. Other posters have pointed to the substantial caseload that the Historic Section of the JCC and its limited personnel. Another factor is the search for compatible DNA donors for each of the soldiers.

This not a matter of simply finding a living relative. The grandson of Pte Larrett Roebuck is a case in point. Unfortunately, although he is a very close next of kin, he is not compatible for either Y or Mt DNA testing and nor are any of his children. We have found with the Fromelles project that it is not unusual to have to go back two or three generation and to come forward six or seven genrations to find a compatible living donor. All this takes an enormous amount of hard graft and detailed genealogical research.

Mel

[Seadog]

Whoops, having turned over the waffle from the MOD I see that having typed the MPS details at the BOTTOM of the page it then continues over with the JCCC contact details. I still have no idea how any member of the public who may have a relevant family connection with the found soldiers can possibly contact the JCCC as invited to do so if there has not been any form of official media release. In my opinion the whole document is a mish-mash of views and conflicting statements. It is vital that we keep up the pressure on the MOD and you never know perhaps even their standard of letter writing may improve if nothing else.

Norman

[MelPack]

My final post

I am a bit reluctant to pour cold water on the enthusiasm for extracting information from the archives of the IRC or the German Military but I do think that it is wildly optimistic to expect there to be a silver bullet that documents the identity of the BL15.

I suspect that level of optimism is a product of the vapour trail left by the Fromelles project. In that context, it is worth remembering that the key document found by Peter Barton in the Bavarian archives was precisely the order to prepare pits for 400 burials.

The successful identification of the Aussies has been down to the physiological information contained in the comprehensive service papers matched with positive DNA results. Yet even with the comprehensive service papers, the anticipated number of Aussies that were expected to be recovered was exceeded because certain of the records did not include any information on the return of tags and personal possessions or not even a reference to suggest that the missing soldiers had been buried by the enemy.

From the British perspective, we have operated at a considerable disadvantage precisely because of the absence of service papers. When we have relied on other documentary sources such as the Totenlistes they have turned out to be a blind alley that have dissipated our limited resources in the quest to secure identifications.

If you would like a measure of what is likely or not to be in an IRC file then I would suggest that you have look at the service papers of Pte Charles White 7156 which are quite unusual because the responses of the British Red Cross to the investigation of his death are preserved. However, even these have White killed in three different ways and circumstances.

We are very fortunate that about fifty of the missing 58's service papers have survived. The physiological data included in the papers will enormously assist the osteological analysis of the remains. We are also fortunate that the ground conditions at Beaucamps Ligny appear to be far more favourable for the preservation of quality DNA. The matrix of forensic, DNA and documentary evidence already exists - we now have to wait and see if full advantage is taken of it.

Mel

[Tjap]

Very well put Mel,

I think that the measured way that you have thought through the problems ahead and expressed them is very realistic,

In the meantime. times wing'ed chariot hurries near, so perhaps, the genealogical work might anticipate the results of these deliberations in a hopeful but not '"tablets of stone" manner and enable DNA samples to be collected and stored in the event that they may be used?

If you can determine that an imposter is not the last remaining Romanov from the spittle off the back of a stamp then a saliva swab stored in a deep freeze should be equally reliable.

Best as ever,

Howard

[PBI]

Mel et Al,at this very early stage of the War would it have been feasible that the Germans would have had orders to bury the British Dead seperately according to each Mans Rank ?.

[MelPack]

Russ

I can't be definitive but I have certainly not come across any information that would suggest differentiation was made in burials according to rank.

The burials at BL appear to have been entirely ad hoc and the imperative nothing more than disposing of the bodies as quickly as possible.

Mel

[PBI]

Thanks Mel.It was just a supposition on my Part.I have contacted the Military Department of the Daily Mail,and am awaiting a reply from their man.Of course i will keep everyone informed of any interest shown by them.Kind Regards Russ.

[spof]

Glen

There are a number of sound reasons for the inclusion of all the 58 missing for the period between 18-25 October 1914.

The 2nd Battalion Y&Ls were involved in two bloody engagements during that week. The first was on the 18th when they encountered numerically superior German forces just north east of Beaucamps as they conducted a sweeping manoeuvre from Radinghem. No fighting occurred in Beaucamps itself which remained under German occupation from shortly after the fall of Lille right through until October 1918.

The second occasion was at dawn on 23 October when the Y&L's trenches were overrun at a crossroads on the Bois Grenier- Radinghem road resulting in bayonet charges and bloody hand to hand combat. This position was about 600 metres short of where the eventual trench line was to be settled that remained virtually static until the Battle of the Lys in April 1918. The Y&Ls had withdrawn to that position by 26 October.

It would be inappropriate to select the missing from the actions on 18 October or 23 October to the exclusion of the other.

It is clear from the documentary evidence that is available that the officially recorded date of death of some of the missing does not necessarily tally with the actual date of death which is hardly surprising given the difficulties of taking an effective roll call in circumstances of fluid combat.

The proximity of the fighting to Beaucamps on 18 October would seem to favour the missing for that action and yet we know that the unknown Y&L soldier recovered from the Mayor's garden is almost certainly one of the two missing officers killed on 23 October (although their official dates of death are 22 October).

Perhaps the most important factor is that the BL 15 were not buried in a single grave but three separate ones consisting of eight, six and one respectively - all of which is possibly indicative that they were buried not only on separate occasions but also on different dates.

The 58 are there for very good reasons and in my view this is not an excessive number. It offers a 4:1 chance of a positive identification which is considerably better than the 110:1 chance that we have with our ongoing identification work with Fromelles.

Mel

Mel

My sincerest apologies. I know the quality of the work you do so I should have known better.

Glen

[MelPack]

Glen

I hope that you didn't think I was having a bash at you.

The question that you raised about the size of the group of potentials was entirely appropriate so there is absolutely no need to apologise whatsoever.

Mel

[chrisharley9]

Mel

received my reply from Secretary of State which is more or less the same as the other replies received. Anything else I can do please let me know.

Chris

[spof]

I thought people might be interested in the war diary for October 1914. It shows what a tough time time the men had.

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=War_Diary_2nd_Battalion_York_and_Lancaster_REgiment_-_October_1914

Glen