The Beaucamps Ligny 15

[MelPack]

Hello Steve

It looks as if at least one person has written to Mr Clegg as a constituent:

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=8772

obviously, Dean might have further information.

Mel

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Mel,

I might right to him anyway, as well as my local MP, every bit of pressure helps !

[Seadog]

I would go ahead and contact Nick Clegg, I am nowhere near his constituency and emailed on a matter concerning Sheffield and received a very helpful response. After all this is a question of policy concerning the use of DNA and other investigative techniques relating to both the current and future treatment of the remains of WW1 soldiers which have been and will continue to be discovered on the battlefield. It would be good however to mention the Sheffield connection.

Regards

Norman

[Tyrim]

I don't know the geography of the UK but to an outsider it appears that these soldiers come from a fairly wide area. Would an appeal to their local newspapers be an alternative? Something on the order of "Local WWI Heroes may have finally been found. Hopes that DNA testing will confirm their identity" would raise local interest and perhaps bring the larger newspapers into the campaign.

[dfaulder]

I don't know the geography of the UK but to an outsider it appears that these soldiers come from a fairly wide area. Would an appeal to their local newspapers be an alternative? Something on the order of "Local WWI Heroes may have finally been found. Hopes that DNA testing will confirm their identity" would raise local interest and perhaps bring the larger newspapers into the campaign.

You would expect most of them to come from the Hallamshire Area (predominately what is now called South Yorkshire, around Sheffield), but a surprising number come from the wider "old Yorkshire" (pre 1974), with a significant number from further afield.

The advantage of course is that there is a regional paper - the Yorkshire Post "Yorkshire's National Paper" - a daily, plus various local papers. If anyone lives in the (non Yorkshire) area of origin of any of these men, it might be worth trying to get their local paper to pick up the story.

David

[Tyrim]

I take it from the above, David, that you will be contacting the Yorkshire papers. If so, that's a very good beginning.

As you say, if other volunteers will do the same for the remaining regions it would be very helpful to the cause.

Below is the list of soldiers from Melpak's posting (#40) on this thread.

*** If you are interested in "adopting" the soldier(s) from your area and making contact with the local or regional newspapers on their behalf, please post a note on this thread to that effect.

*** If you know anyone who would want to help get the message out, would you let them know about this worthy cause.

Hopefully, none of this will require a lot of time from any one individual but, if the volunteers are successful, the cumulative effort should go a long way towards giving these men their due.

Here is the full list of the missing 58 for the 2nd Battalion York & Lancaster Regiment.

Mel

[dfaulder]

I take it from the above, David, that you will be contacting the Yorkshire papers. If so, that's a very good beginning.

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Here is the full list of the missing 58 for the 2nd Battalion York & Lancaster Regiment.

Mel

As I don't live (and was not born) in Yorkshire, I will hold back so that a genuine Yorkshireman can "have a go" (which I suspect will be more effective).

I live in rural Northumberland, so there are none from my area - except (stretching the definition) one from Newcastle (Private William Alfred Singyard 7318 b Newcastle 1884, enlisted 3 May 1903 on page 2) on your list. Anyone living in Newcastle want to contact the Journal or Chronic in say the next week? If not, I will.

CWGC Roll of Honour

Name: .................. SINGYARD, WILLIAM ALFRED

Initials: .............. W A

Nationality: ........... United Kingdom

Rank: .................. Private

Regiment/Service: ...... York and Lancaster Regiment

Unit Text: ............. 2nd Bn.

Age: ................... 30

Date of Death: ......... 18/10/1914

Service No: ............ 7318

Additional information:. Husband of Margaret A. Singyard,

........................ of 67 Stoddart St., Shieldfield, Newcastle-on-Tyne.

Casualty Type: ......... Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference:Panel 8.

Memorial: .............. PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

1911 Census Index

Registration County: ... Northumberland

Registration District: . Newcastle

Parish: ................ Undetermined

Schedule Type: ......... Household

Surname .. Firstname ... Sex YoB Age . Relationship Place of Birth

Singyard . William ...... M 1855 57 .. Head

Singyard . William Alfred M 1884 27 .. Son ........ b Newcastle

Singyard . Ellen O W .... F 1891 20 .. Daughter ... b Newcastle

FreeBMD

Possible Siblings

Event .. Qtr Year Surname .. First name(s) ..... District ... Vol Page

Births . Jun 1882 Singyard . Alfred William ..... Newcastle T. 10b 103

Deaths . Jun 1882 Singyard . Alfred William (0yo)Newcastle T. 10b 69

Births . Jun 1883 Singyard . Dorothy ............ Newcastle T. 10b 92

Births . Jun 1884 Singyard . William Alfred ..... Newcastle T. 10b 99

Births . Mar 1891 SINGYARD . Ellen Ormaton W .... Newcastle T. 10b 120

Marriage of William Alfred

Qtr Year Surname .. First name(s) Spouse ... District ... Vol Page

Mar 1913 Singyard . William A ... Allen .... Newcastle T. 10b 221

Mar 1913 Allen .... Margaret E .. Singyard . Newcastle T. 10b 221

Probable Children of William Alfred

Event .. Qtr Year Surname First name(s) . Mother . District ... Vol Page

Births . Sep 1913 Singyard . Elizabeth .. Allen .. Newcastle T. 10b 64

(Further records indicate marriage of Elizabeth and four children - given that they are probably alive, I don't propose to publish them)

Marriages of Possible Siblings

Qtr Year Surname .. First name(s) Spouse ... District ... Vol Page

Jun 1902 Singyard . Dorothy ..... (see note) Newcastle T. 10b 188

Sep 1913 Singyard . Ellen O W ... Forster .. Newcastle T. 10b 331

Dorothy's husband is either Robert Graham or George Turner. 1911 Census does not show either a Dorothy Graham or a Dorothy Turner. Death Records show:

Qtr Year Surname .. First name(s) Age . District ... Vol Page

Sep 1906 Graham ... Dorothy ..... 22 ... Morpeth .... 10b 267

Sep 1910 Graham ... Dorothy ..... 27 ... Newcastle T. 10b 50

Note there was a Dorothy Graham born Morpeth Dec 1883 (10b 353), so it is probable that the Sep 1910 Death is of Dorothy Singyard.

Possible Nephews/Nieces

Event .. Qtr Year Surname First name(s) . Mother . District ... Vol Page

Births . Dec 1917 Forster Mary A ........ Singyard Newcastle T. 10b 148

Deaths . Dec 1918 Forster Mary A (1yo) ........... Newcastle T. 10b 219

Births . Mar 1921 Forster John .......... Singyard Newcastle T. 10b 183

Births . Dec 1922 Forster Louisa ........ Singyard Newcastle T. 10b 168

Births . Mar 1925 Forster Mary .......... Singyard Newcastle T. 10b 186

Births . Jun 1926 Forster Gwendoline C .. Singyard Newcastle T. 10b 163

Deaths . Sep 1926 Forster Gwendoline (0yo) ....... Newcastle T. 10b 131

Births . Dec 1927 Forster Maud .......... Singyard Newcastle T. 10b 124

Deaths . Dec 1928 Forster Maud (1yo) ............. Newcastle T. 10b 187

Births . Jun 1934 Forster Elizabeth S ... Singyard Newcastle T. 10b 169

(between 1902 and 1910, there were 328 registered "Graham" Births in Newcastle upon Tyne - at this time the mother's surname was not indexed)

David

[Tyrim]

David,

I apologize for misunderstanding your post. I hope you don't feel that I was putting you on the spot. I had no intention of doing so.

That's quite a lot of information you've pulled together for Private Singyard. It should be very helpful in raising local interest in the identification process.

Tyrim

[dfaulder]

David,

I apologize for misunderstanding your post. I hope you don't feel that I was putting you on the spot. I had no intention of doing so.

That's quite a lot of information you've pulled together for Private Singyard. It should be very helpful in raising local interest in the identification process.

Tyrim

No trouble; I always think that with local papers, the impact is greater if the contact comes from "a reader" (or at least someone in the primary circulation area).

I was surprised what I got on Private Singard from free sources (the unusual name helped). When I get to the Library, I suspect I will find much more on Ancestry. His service record should be interesting, because the tabulation of casualties given earlier implied that he enlisted in May 1903, yet he is on the North Eastern Railway role of honour as a Porter at Newcastle.

David

[MelPack]

David

William was transferred to the Reserves on 28 May 1911 after completing a stint of 8 years with the Colours and was mobilised in August 1914 and allocated to the 2nd Battalion. A good proportion of the missing men were Reservists.

I have the genealogy of the missing men fully mapped with nearly 3,000 relatives for the missing 58.

Anything that you can do in terms of local coverage is vey welcome.

Geoff (of the wonderful search engine fame) has succeeded in getting the Gloucestershire Echo in running a story on Frederick Thompson from Charlton Kings/Cheltenham.

Mel

[deano]

Hi, re post 51, i have asked for any feedback from the 'local Sheffield forums' i have posted on. I have had about 6 people contact their local MP.

Meg Munn is another who has been sent an e-mail. Still no reply from the Sheffield Star, might have to try something else.

Dean.

[MelPack]

Dean

That is great stuff.

We still need lots more confirmations from fellow GWF members.

Come on guys start them rolling in. Your efforts could really make a very big difference on this issue.

Mel

[Tyrim]

Perhaps opening up another thread to "advertise" the goal of this one would help.

A title such as, DNA TESTING CAMPAIGN- Your help is needed might attract additional attention.

And a link back to this thread would save having to duplicate the above information.

(Of course, we have to realize that the title suggested would inevitably attract jokes. But that's alright, jokers have MPs too!)

[Roy Evans]

Email sent to my (new) MP

Roy

Hmm, no reply as yet.

Roy

[Seadog]

I thought that it may be of interest that I post the response from my MP. It is essential that we on this forum put in the efforts that we can in order that the 15 soldiers are at least given the chance of positive identification. The pressure WILL work and this is a subject that members can actively participate in which in the end even should the authorities not listen, we can at least say WE TRIED!.

Norman

[deano]

Just been e-mailed by the Sheffield Star and BBC Radio Sheffield with a view to doing interviews,any pointers chaps to get the story over in a more professional manner ? Also a school boy question, how is Beaucamps Ligny properly pronounced, dont want to look a prat!!

Dean.

[Seadog]

Good work Dean and you will not look or sound like a prat............here is my best shot at pronunciation

Bowcomps-Linay

Mind you it might not be correct!. Do not worry about how it sounds just listen to some of the Tour De France commentary; I dont recognise most of the places that they describe.

Regards

Norman

PS You will have looked at this thread:

Original GWF Thread:

[ianw]

Dean - you seem to be making some real progress and I think it is local interest that may well be the key to this one.

I would imagine that there are war memorials in your area where the names of some of the men whose remains may have been found will be recorded. I would suggest that you take the press and any photographer to a memorial or two and ask the question "Have these men's remains been found at last?" You can then point out that we now have the technology to prove this if we do a little research and some DNA testing. The end result being a known grave for at least some of them.

[dfaulder]

Just been e-mailed by the Sheffield Star and BBC Radio Sheffield with a view to doing interviews,any pointers chaps to get the story over in a more professional manner ? Also a school boy question, how is Beaucamps Ligny properly pronounced, dont want to look a prat!!

Dean.

Try and work out how to put your point over in thirty seconds or less! These radio and TV interviews are often very short. In non contentious areas (such as this), the interviewer is often willing to tell you what his first question will be so that you have some chance to think how you will reply.

Key points:

• 58 men from one World War One battle have "no known grave",
  • they were York and Lancaster men, most recruited from this area
  • Many of their relatives may still be living in the Hallamshire area (make the local link early)

  [*]15 bodies have been discovered on the battlefield,

  • uniforms etc. identify them as York and Lancaster men,
  • DNA analysis could give them a name
  • without such analysis they will be condemned to continuing anonymity, known only "unto God"

  [*]The Australians have managed to identify many men from the Fromelles battlefield, we should do the same.

That is probably more than 30 seconds worth!

Good Luck

David

[deano]

Thanks for the pointers chaps, taken on board.

Will let you know of progress,

Dean.

[dfaulder]

My MP (Guy Opperman Con for Hexham) has now replied; referring the matter to the minister and will report back.

Mel, does you genealogy of the 58 reveal addresses on enlistment or widows' addresses; from them we might be able to work out modern day constituencies and make sure we have all the bases covered?

David

[PBI]

Re Pte Charles Edgar Hallett from Croydon.I checked the Moore and Sayers Publication,"Croydon in the Great War",and there is no Charles Edgar Hallett listed on the Roll of Honour.However there is a Frederick Percy Hallett listed,i wonder if this could be a relative or Family Member ?.

[Seadog]

Here is a email I have just received from the regimental museum. (Post 46)

Hi Norman,

I forwarded your e-mail to the York and Lancaster Regimental curator Karl Noble and he is on with the enquiry and will reply, when he has managed to sort something out, an aside to this, I have been assisting Karl in his enquiries for persons requesting family histories, for their relatives. One of these enquiries was for a person on your list private 10356 Albert Pearson of the 2nd Battalion. We therefore have contact details for a direct descendant.

Regards

Dave Winter

[deano]

Just had my 'interview' with BBC Radio Sheffield, not been broadcast just yet, probably needs a good edit! They also took the 5 images i have of some of the men for their website.

Re the last post, one of the images is of 10356 Albert Pearson.

Dean.

[Seadog]

Well done Dean!, please post a link to the media when you can. Thanks for all of your efforts.

Best Wishes

Norman

Added:

The Regimental Museum email is

yorkandlancsmuseum@rotherham.gov.uk

Karl Noble - Curator

or

Dave Winter