The Beaucamps Ligny 15

[Scotty]

Norman,

Anything less woould be a disgrace.

[Seadog]

Thanks Scotty, I have the feeling rightly or wrongly that if we fail on this case then we can kiss goodbye to all future identifications of found soldiers unless they are discovered with tangible evidence that proves without doubt their identity.

Regards

Norman

[Tjap]

Norman,

I too have been watching the BBC News 24 regarding Fromelles. The effect on all attending and watching was clearly profound. However, I found however Peter Barton's comment that he could not see what has happened for the Fromelles fallen being repeated in the future very disheartening.

Keep up the pressure for the Beaucamps Ligny 58.

Best,

Howard

[dfaulder]

No trouble; I always think that with local papers, the impact is greater if the contact comes from "a reader" (or at least someone in the primary circulation area).

I was surprised what I got on Private Singard from free sources (the unusual name helped). When I get to the Library, I suspect I will find much more on Ancestry. His service record should be interesting, because the tabulation of casualties given earlier implied that he enlisted in May 1903, yet he is on the North Eastern Railway role of honour as a Porter at Newcastle.

David

No one seems to have picked up this case, so I have today dropped a note to the Newcastle Journal:

World War One Soldiers awaiting identification.

Many will have seen coverage of the opening of the new World War One Cemetery at Fromelles on Monday (19th July 2010). In this cemetery are buried the remains of one of the largest recent finds of World War One soldiers. DNA analysis has permitted the identification of many of these men.

Yet, remains are always being found in France and Belgium and 15 bodies discovered at Beaucamps-Ligny are awaiting burial. One of these may be Private William Alfred Singyard who was born in Newcastle and whose widow, Margaret, lived in Shieldfield Road. He is believed to have had one daughter, Elizabeth born in 1913. She is believed to have married and had four children in Newcastle between 1932 and 1947.

Will similar steps be taken to identify the Beaucamps-Ligny soldiers, or will they be quietly buried in graves marked "known unto God"?

From items found by the bodies, it is known that these are the remains of members of the 2nd Battalion the York and Lancaster Regiment, and from the location, it can be concluded that they were killed in action between 18 - 25 October 1914. There are 58 members of that battalion missing from that time - including Private Singyard.

The Fromelles identifications were driven by the Australian Government following pressure from the families of the soldiers who died in that action (predominantly Australian - their worst day of losses). Will relatives of the 58 missing from Beaucamps-Ligny get the chance to know if their relatives' remains have been found, or will our Government (in these straightened times) deny that chance and condemn these 15 sets of remains to be buried without names?

David

[Tyrim]

Excellent letter David!

[Seadog]

Ditto David.......nice one!

Norman

[deano]

I was interviewed by David Walsh of the Sheffield Star this afternoon, a good 90 minutes long. He took all the details i have and the images i have of 5 of the Sheffield lads. He seemed really interested in the story. Dont know when published but i dont think it'll be this week. Will keep all up to date. I have also received contact details for the grandson of Larrett Roebuck, who lives in Sheffield !

regards

Dean.

[Tyrim]

Good one, Dean!

[Seadog]

You are doing well Dean, splendid work!

Regards

Norman

[deano]

The Sheffield Star is also interested in doing a story with Larrett Roebuck's grandson, i have been in touch with the grandson and he is very interested in getting his side of the story told too.

Dean.

[SteveMarsdin]

Having watched the Channel 4 programme (I know you channel hopped, Norman !) I am convinced the way to get media interest is with the local human interest aspect and for that we need the relatives on board, as Dean's example illustrates.

On another point, last night's documentary mentioned a cost for the Fromelles project of, if I remember correctly, £3.000.000. I think that it should be made clear that we are campaigning for the DNA route for the Beaucamps Ligny 15 as a specific case and not for a future policy to be adopted in every case by CWGC/MOD. I feel each case should be judged on its merits, with 15 from 58 "missing" York and Lancaster men and the circumstances as set out on this Forum I feel it is justifiable to campaign as we have done and are doing.

[deano]

I quite agree with your observations Steve. The figure i had in my head re Fromelles was 3-4 million, i understand that this was shared between the Australian and British governments, i stand to be corrected. So thats 2 million from the British government on a much, much bigger project, so how much would the 'Ligny' project cost ? peanuts by comparison i should think ?

Dean.

[Seadog]

Agreed Steve, every case to be judged on its merits as to whether DNA matching can be applied with a reasonable chance of success. The cost of the Pheasant Wood excavations as reported on the TV of course included all the archeological and scientific investigation of what turned out to be 250 sets of remains. With B-L we are talking about 15 sets of remains already excavated albeit perhaps in a less that professional manner but excavated all the same. Therefore the cost of DNA matching in this case will be nowhere near that of Pheasant Wood. The trouble is that I sincerely believe that the official or unofficial embargo on the release of the details of the discovery to the UK media is a deliberate policy by the MOD in order to forestall any pressure for parity of treatment with those found at Pheasant Wood.

The time has now come for the MOD to make a decision as to whether DNA matching will form part of their investigative arsenal for the future. The more we can publicise this fact then the more we stand a chance of success. Deam and others are doing excellent work with local media and just put yourself in the position of one of the relatives of the possible matches for the 15 soldiers, how will you feel if the MOD refuses to adopt DNA technology, not very happy I suspect.

Regards

Norman

[dfaulder]

>><<The trouble is that I sincerely believe that the official or unofficial embargo on the release of the details of the discovery to the UK media is a deliberate policy by the MOD in order to forestall any pressure for parity of treatment with those found at Pheasant Wood.

>><<

Regards

Norman

Although there seems to be a complete absence of UK coverage of the B-L 15, I find it hard to believe that the MOD is able to enforce an embargo (seriously D Notices?). So are they just casting doubts about those raising the issue when the media approach them and that is putting the media off?

Perhaps we need to maintain a list of all press coverage of the discovery. I will start with:

1. Steve Marsdin's report of La Voix du Nord on the main thread
2. Le Post 23 November 2009
3. AFP 22 November 2009

any others (add them to this thread and I will if I notice them (!) copy them to this post)?

David

[Seadog]

Fair point David, I did mention that this may have been an informal embargo as you describe. The fact is that through the efforts of members here the local media is expressing an interest so I assume from this that if the UK press had been informed at the time then there would have been both national and local coverage, someone in the MOD has taken the decision not to issue a press release, that is the basic fact. Good idea to collate the media info as it becomes available.

Regards

Norman

[Peridot]

Hi All

Have received a letter from my MP today (Lisa Nandy, Wigan), saying that she supports the cause and has written to the Minister of Defence accordingly.

Peridot

[rendellers]

Hi

Same as Peridot. I have recieved this from my MP Anne Marie Morris this week.

" I believe it is crucial that we remember the sacrifice made by our brave soldiers made in the Great War, indeed, we should honour all those who have died defending our country and protecting our freedom regardless of their generation. As a nation we can never truely repay the debt of gratitude we owe these brave men and women, however, we can, and have a duty to, commemorate them with the dignity they so richly deserve.

I sympathise with your concern about the remains of the fifteeen soldiers found at the mass grave in Beaucamps Ligny and fully appreciate why you want them identified. i too believe this is important so they can finally be laid to rest with the personal memorial they are entitled to.

I will gladly write to Andrew Robathan MP, inister for Defence Personnel, welfeare and Veterans regarding this issue to ascertain what steps the governement is taking to secure the identification of the recoveerd soldiers."

Just wondering if the MPs are sending out a standard response?

Regards

Lindsey

[dfaulder]

I suspect the party organisations may be alert to "campaigns" and may be advising about "appropriate" responses. But if the main government party is recommending replies along the lines of

I too believe this is important so they can finally be laid to rest with the personal memorial they are entitled to.

we are doing pretty well!

I just wonder how Andrew Robathan MP is replying to these MPs - he has had quite a while to consider a fair number of referrals!

David

[rendellers]

Mental note to chase Ms Morris up again in about 6 weeks!

[Tyrim]

One tap on the shoulder gets their attention. But if they think you've gone away they'll forget it. Continually tapping, within reason, may get action.

[glosterman]

I suspect the party organisations may be alert to "campaigns" and may be advising about "appropriate" responses. But if the main government party is recommending replies along the lines of

we are doing pretty well!

I just wonder how Andrew Robathan MP is replying to these MPs - he has had quite a while to consider a fair number of referrals!

David

As someone who used to work in a government department (not the MoD) dealing with questions from MP's, for those who dont know the system / timelines.

You write to your MP.

He / she writes to the relevant Minister. (Usually MP just forwards your letter under a covering note asking for a response to send to you) Letter received in Ministers Office / Parliamentary Branch of relevant department (MoD)

Parliamentary Branch of relevant department pass to Secretariat area that deals with issue concerned asking for advice & draft response (in this case I assume CWGC or SPVA) Given them 8-10 days to provide advice and a draft response.

Secretariat seek advice / comments from staff who deal with subject on a day to day basis and then draft reply and brief for Minister. Safeguard for Ministers is that reply has to be approved / cleared by senior civil servant / official.

Reply sent back to Parliamentary Branch who check advice / brief supplied addresses the issues raised by you / MP (or explains why not possible so to do) and asks for further advice if required.

Brief & reply placed in Ministers overnight box to sign off - usually one of 20-30 on a range of subjects each night + number of papers on policy matters / bills in Parliament, so Minister will not spend a lot of time considering content of such letters. Once signed response sent to MP who forwards to you.

Whole proces can take 6-8 weeks.

Same system works if you write to a member of Royal Family, direct to a Minister or a senior official in organisation concerned. Only difference is who replies. (Write direct to Minister or member of royal family and you will usually get a letter of ack from their office and a response from a senior official in organisation / dept concerned rather than individual themselves) System does not change with a change in Government only change is in the individual signing the letter. (ie same officials working for this Govt as for Labour Govt)

Bottom line in this is that unless the Minister / Government feel strongly about the issue, the response received will be the same as had you written direct to the organisation concerned. This is one reason I do not write to my MP on any topic, but to the Boss/ CE of an organisation I have an isue with.

All Politicians are a waste of time Good luck with the campaign, but I predict replies received will reflect advice / responses previously given by MoD / CWGC if / when you have spoken to them direct.

.

[Scotty]

All Politicians are a waste of time

.

[Scotty]

Must agree with you there Kevin. Scotty.

[dfaulder]

>><<

All Politicians are a waste of time Good luck with the campaign, but I predict replies received will reflect advice / responses previously given by MoD / CWGC if / when you have spoken to them direct.

(thanks for details of the "process")

However, it may get interesting when MPs like Anne Marie Morris receive the standard reply and they then, when responding to their constituent, have to reconcile the standard reply with the opinion they have previously expressed. I suspect that to get change you have to get sufficient MPs discomforted by what they feel or have said and what they are being told by the minister. (Or court action)

David

[Seadog]

Slightly negative attitude there Kevin if I may say so and a sweeping statement that all politicians are a waste of time, well that is not my opinion. Having told us what will not work would you like to share your views of what would work in this case with us please.

Norman