The Beaucamps Ligny 15

[glosterman]

Slightly negative attitude there Kevin if I may say so and a sweeping statement that all politicians are a waste of time, well that is not my opinion. Having told us what will not work would you like to share your views of what would work in this case with us please.

Norman

Norman

Being relatively new here, I dont know what you have, or have not done to date, other than what I have read on this thread. But in my experience If you are not happy with what the worker bees do in any firm go to the man or woman in the organisation concerned who has the power to get the job done. By that I do not mean the politicians to which this campaign will be just one of many on which they receive representations, but the boss of the organisation concerned. Ultimately they make the key decisions, direct staff and provide the funds & resources to get the job done. In this case I would suggest the Director General of the Commonwealth War Graves Commiission & Boss of the Veterans Agency. Just as importantly, seek the help / support of senior officers in the successor Regiments to the Yorks & Lancs and the Head of the Army, who can exert substantial pressure on the executives concerned.

KH

[deano]

This is the result of my interview with the Sheffield Star last Saturday from their 'online paper', slightly more substance in the 'real paper' with photographs of 4 of the 'possibles'. I had no control over the editing of the piece.

'We will remember them'

Published Date: 23 July 2010

By David Walsh

"THE first cemetery built by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for 65 years has just been dedicated in Fromelles, northern France, following the discovery of the remains of 250 World War One soldiers in a mass grave.

Now researchers are campaigning for funding to identify and inter a further 15 soldiers found last year - many of whom could be from South Yorkshire. David Walsh reports on a grave battle.

'HIS wife would be grateful for any tidings.'

This heart-rending request is in a newspaper advert taken out by Caroline Andrew after her husband went missing in the First World War.

The mother-of-three, of Rockingham Street, Sheffield, was later told the news she had been dreading - that James Andrew had died in France on October 18 1914.

The remains of the 29-year-old private, of the 2nd Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment, were never found. He is one of 170,000 allied soldiers on the Western Front with no grave, who are simply 'known unto God'.

But after the discovery of 15 bodies in a French village 95 years later there may at last be tidings.

In November the French press reported an excavator driver had unearthed a body in the village of Beaucamps-Ligny near the Belgium border.

Further digging revealed bodies and military artefacts, including ammunition, pieces of webbing and buttons, which identified the fallen as members of the York and Lancasters.

The regiment had been involved in fierce fighting with German troops around the Chateau de Flandres at Beaucamps-Ligny between October 18 and 20 1914.

Research based on war records shows 58 members of the regiment have no known grave, 15 of whom were born in Sheffield and a further six in South Yorkshire.

Now history buff Dean Hill, 47, of Willington Road, Firth Park, is one of many campaigning for the Government to pay for DNA tests on the living to identify the dead and give them the burial they deserve - as happened to their compatriots this week in Fromelles. He said: "These men fought and died for their country and they have been buried anonymously in a hole for 96 years. It is time to put that right, for them and their families.

"It was so early in the war these soldiers would have been on a high, for some it would have been their first time out of Sheffield. It would have been a great adventure, believing they would be home by Christmas.

"I think about what they were doing that day when they were killed, what they went through, and how their families felt when they got the telegram. In some cases, if the men were the only breadwinner, they would have been destitute as well as heartbroken. It can affect families for generations.

"They shouldn't continue to be anonymous. Only when all attempts to identify them have been exhausted should they be allowed to be 'known unto God' - but only then."

Dean, who is a moderator on the Sheffield History forum, started gathering information on Sheffield World War One soldiers after researching the death of his great-grandfather Albert Dale, who was killed in action in 1918 and is buried in a British cemetery at Trefcon in northern France.

Now he has a database with details of 30,000 of the 50,000 Sheffield men who fought, as well as 5,500 photos. "It means everything to know my great-grandfather has a grave. It's vitally important to families."

He has gleaned information from 'a thousand and one' sources including British - and German - Army service records, the Red Cross and the Census, as well as from 200 rolls of honour held in churches, factories, clubs and schools. But every year in Northern France the 'iron harvest' of bullets and bombs yields remains.

Dean is determined they will no longer be forgotten."

I am forwarding contact details this morning to the Star re the grandson of Larrett Roebuck.

Dean.

[ianw]

Nice one, Dean. A very good effort.

[Seadog]

Well done! a vey good article. Here is the link to their website

Newspaper article:

A bit slow but it will load

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

This campaign is directed at the people who make and influence the decisions. As such I think it represents all that can be done. The Fromelles campaign was successful and I would hope that the BL 15 effort can be similarly successful.

To a degree the door must be a bit more ajar given the recent publicity attached to Fromelles and the fact that Fromelles has been a great PR success for the organisations concerned resulting in plaudits all round. On the other side of the scales is the ferocious cutting of government expenditure.

[Seadog]

Thanks for the suggestions Kevin (Post 126). On the question of contacting the CWGC I think you will find that they do not see their responsibilities extending beyond the upkeep of the war cemeteries and the provision of new graves when the occasion arises. In fact you may not be aware that in normal circumstances there are no professional exhumation staff or organisations involved in any way with the recovery of the found remains.

You will see from the main B-L 15 thread that in this case as in others the remains were excavated by the local citizens. Considering that there is no formal procedure for such exhumations then this is the only alternative.

I believe that the CWGC employ an “Exhumation Officer” in France but I have no idea whatsoever concerning his responsibilities. All in all a bit of a mess and in my view not the way to treat our countrymen. I have detailed the above in case you were not aware of the facts.

Main B-L 15 Thread

Regards

Norman

[Tyrim]

Is there anything new on this campaign?

[MelPack]

Is there anything new on this campaign?

Tyrim

I have just returned from holiday and it is heartening to see that efforts of Dean have paid dividends in local coverage.

Geoff (wonderful search engine) set in place similar coverage from the Gloucester Echo for a soldier from Cheltenham:

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/cheltenham/Appeal-Cheltenham-WW1-soldier-s-relatives/article-2405488-detail/article.html

In respect of the campaign, it is really a matter of continuous lobbying until a Ministerial decision (hopefully the right one) is made.

Anyone reading this thread will hopefully write to their MP if they have not already done so.

Mel

[Tyrim]

Great article. It certainly hammers the point home and shows that the local papers are willing to cover the story!

Does anybody know of other papers that have come on board?

[Chris Noble]

Well done Dean.

I too have received a reply this week from my own MP.

Let us all keep up the momentum.

Best wishes to all.

Chris.

[spof]

In respect of the campaign, it is really a matter of continuous lobbying until a Ministerial decision (hopefully the right one) is made.

Mel

Mel

Welcome back. Hope you had a good holiday.

I received a reply from my MP this morning with a letter from Andrew Robathan MP, Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans.

Before I add it here, it is important to include a snippet from the covering letter reminding me that the Army unit responsible for any work done on this are also responsible for for providing support md advice to current service personnel and their relatives esp in Afghanistan so resources available to B-L are limited and it may take some time before work on this case can be concluded.

Having said that......

Thank you for your letter of 7 July enclosing correspondence from your constituent, Mr xxxx regarding the discovery of the remains of what are believed to be British Service personnel at Beaucamps-Ligny in Northern France.

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is aware of the discovery of the partial remains of up to 15 Service personnel at Beaucamps-Ligny and that the remains are currently in the safe custody of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC). Whilst some physical evidence has been recovered that suggests at least some of the remains may be soldiers of the 2nd Battalion York and Lancaster regiment, the identity of the soldiers has yet to be confirmed.

Efforts to identify the remains will be co-ordinated by staff at our Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC), working with officials from the CWGC, the local authorities in France, and Army historians. Initially, attempts at identification will concentrate on documentary and forensic analysis but, I can confirm that DNA testing will be used (my emphasis), providing the list ofpotential casualties can be narrowed down to a reasonable number and suitable relatives can be traced to obtain DNA samples from.

In order to avoid raising false hopes amongst the many families who lost loved ones in past conflicts and have no kknown grave, it is not MOD policy to publicise the discovery of remains until there is some indication of who the soldiers are. However, staff from the JCCC may in due course, attempt to contact relatives of soldiers whose remains could potentially be among those found at Beaucamps-Ligny, to inform them of the discovery and seek their assistance in identifying a suitable DNA source. They would therefore welcome information from any member of the public that may assist in this task. Such information should be forwarded to:

My MP’s name and Commons address.

Fantastic news! Now to get the names and info to the Commons.

Glen

[River97]

Glen,

That's gold. You're right in saying it may take some time, but at least it's now under way.

Cheers Andy.

[PBI]

Defence Spending Cuts Permitting.

[dfaulder]

>><<

Efforts to identify the remains will be co-ordinated by staff at our Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC), working with officials from the CWGC, the local authorities in France, and Army historians. Initially, attempts at identification will concentrate on documentary and forensic analysis but, I can confirm that DNA testing will be used (my emphasis), providing the list of potential casualties can be narrowed down to a reasonable number and suitable relatives can be traced to obtain DNA samples from.

In order to avoid raising false hopes amongst the many families who lost loved ones in past conflicts and have no known grave, it is not MOD policy to publicise the discovery of remains until there is some indication of who the soldiers are. However, staff from the JCCC may in due course, attempt to contact relatives of soldiers whose remains could potentially be among those found at Beaucamps-Ligny, to inform them of the discovery and seek their assistance in identifying a suitable DNA source. They would therefore welcome information from any member of the public that may assist in this task. Such information should be forwarded to:

My MP's name and Commons address.

>><<

In some respects this is very positive. Am I, however, being overly cynical in seeing contradictions?

"provided ... suitable relatives can be traced ..." (how? either from data they already hold - none - or from appealing for suitable relatives - see below)

"not MOD policy to publicise the discovery of remains until there is some indication of who the soldiers are" (from the BL example it would appear they do not yet think they have met this criterion, so no publicity which surely means relatives will not be coming forward)

"staff ... may in due course ... attempt to contact relatives" (But I somehow can't imagine them doing genealogical research or commissioning others to do it. As I have personally found they do not wish to hold information about the next of kin of the missing. And we have already established, they will not be publicising the discovery, so relatives will not be coming forward - unless we cause something different to happen).

"They would therefore welcome information from any member of the public who may assist in this task" (The task being to contact relatives? If the task is to identify potential relatives, this seems at odds with their reluctance to hold information about next of kin.)

So if they cannot identify potential relatives, they will not use DNA testing and they will not be publicising the discovery, so the identification of remains will remain "unknown" and they will be quietly buried as such?

The only way to over-come this would seem to be for amateurs such as us to trace relatives, make contact with them and persuade them to make specific enquiries. I am most uncertain about the wisdom of amateurs approaching elderly people (such as grandchildren of the missing). Certainly I would have been most unhappy about a "gifted amateur" contacting my late father about such a sensitive topic and possibly raising false hopes in someone facing their own death and concerned about what happens when they "meet their father". The opportunity for scammers to start charging some very vulnerable people for taking DNA samples is, shall we say, disquieting.

BTW: I understand the issue about JCCC staff being primarily involved in handling current casualties, and I do not think anyone would want to see delay in handling current cases, but I thought there was within JCCC an Historic Casualty Casework Group

Historic Casualty Casework The JCCC has a small team that answers enquires relating to individual military fatalities outside the recent past and co-ordinates investigations following the discovery of human remains of personnel killed in the First and Second World Wars,. This fascinating work involves attempts to identify the casualty and trace their next of kin or descendants. We will then arrange an appropriate military funeral in the country concerned, if that is the wish of the family.

David

[deano]

Great news Glen, a real positive there.

Larrat Roebuck's grandson is fully behind this and welcomes any help from any quarter in this matter. He actually sought me out to put himself forward for any future DNA testing.

Dean.

ps. welcome back Mel.

[Tyrim]

Great work everyone!

David, to borrow from Churchill, this might be, "...the end of the beginning..."

But you are correct, it's no time to faulter-- the more publicity, the more interest, the greater the results.

[glosterman]

Sounds hopeful. Well done Glen , however,

BTW: I understand the issue about JCCC staff being primarily involved in handling current casualties, and I do not think anyone would want to see delay in handling current cases, but I thought there was within JCCC an Historic Casualty Casework Group

I believe the JCCC historic team consists of the grand total of 2 or 3 people and they are responsible for investigatiing / resolving all historic casualty discoveries from WW1 and WW11.

I fear, as PBI suggests by his response, in the current financial climate and with the demand for 10-25% savings in the MoD, this area of work may be at risk of reduced funding / cuts and certainly will not be given additional resources. Lets hope this is not the case.

[PBI]

Agreeing with the Previous Post,i anticipate that the MOD will be using the Debacle in Afghanistan as their main excuse for continued stalling with any detailed investigations of WW1-2 remains.That and lack of Funding due to cuts.Maybe if pressure is maintained re the BL-15,the MOD might act...eventually.

[ianw]

Let's hope that the work on the BL15 can be kicked off before any new pit discoveries in the Fromelles area - there seem to be rumours about rumours on this but all is quiet - too quiet?

I suppose it is coincidence that BL is only 3 miles or so from Fromelles although as battlefields go this area is off the beaten track when compared to Ypres and the Somme. I have always felt that this may have resulted in this area not getting the same degree of clearance attention.

In the recent TV programme about Fromelles, Peter Barton referred to the location of other pits in the area. It also appears that Lambis has been continuing his reseaches. What price some news in the autumn?

[spof]

Thanks all for the feedback. It is so good to get confirmation that DNA testing will at least be tried.

I also noticed the 'Catch 22' situation of MoD not publicising anything until the families got in touch so MoD could publicise it. And the fact that the JCCC Historical Unit with very few people deals with at least both World Wars.

Regardless, we have a list of 58 names which is probably too many. It needs to be around 30 at most. I'll be typing up the names on Mel's list in the hope that they wil be found on an internet search and maybe rule out some names.

As they were buried behind German lines, we'll probably need to wait until the Red Cross records go online in 2014 to get proper confirmatation.

Glen

[PBI]

I personally think that the MOD wont wait around for 2014 to examine Red Cross Records.If indeed they have any intention of doing so.Taking a cynical view,i dont think the MOD are going to wait until 2014 and perhaps beyond to Bury the BL-15.And will bury thare Men sooner rather than later.Could not an examination of the Red Cross Documents be carried out in the very near future as they were for the Australians posted as Missing at Fromelles ?.Regards Russ.

[ianw]

I would certainly be prepared to donate to a fund to get someone out to Switzerland to have a look at the archives - the trouble is that they would have to have a good degree of expertise and read German. Would there be a suitable volunteer that would take the task on?

[PBI]

I concur with you on this Ian..Time is now of the essence.

[ianw]

Just trying to get an idea of what might be in the Red Cross archives - the BL burial was very early in the war when the fighting was very fluid. I would imagine that the amount of information from the autumn of 1914 might be very different to that gathered by the Germans in the summer of 1916. I agree that the current list of 58 missing whilst limited is rather too big, but what are the chances of finding details of the BL burial? That said, perhaps we have to give it a try in any case.

[PBI]

Ian maybe the fact that this Burial was fairly early on in the War might have some significance.Possibly the Germans took more care over this Burial,than they would have done after the War showed no signs of ending "Before Christmas" and before large Numbers of casualties would have hardened the Combatants of all sides and any remaining chivalry to fallen enemies vanished completely.Another avenue of research would be to locate the War Diary of German units involved in the Fighting in and around the area where the BL-15 were discovered.We have Forum Members in Germany who could surely help in this matter.