Burial of an Australian Soldier, July 2010

[Seadog]

What an absolutely cracking set of photos PBI (Russ) many thanks for posting the link.

Well done that man

Norman

Added:

Judy (Post 100)perhaps you should be addressing that question to Russ (PBI) who was there at the time and did speak to a representative of the CWGC on the subject.

[judy7007]

Added:

Judy (Post 100)perhaps you should be addressing that question to Russ (PBI) who was there at the time and did speak to a representative of the CWGC on the subject.

Norman, I was focusing on "I think that the statement brings clarity to the view of the official organisers of such occasions, in this case the Australian military authorities".

Actually thinking about it more, to me the quote from Russ doesn't make it clear in any way that what he was told by the CWGC representative is the view of the the Australian military authorities. It states that the CWGC representative objected and warned the Australian authorities. Could it have been the view of the CWGC rather than the Australian Army?

Certainly there didn't seem any objection from the Australian military authorities (quite the opposite actually) to the WWI re-enactment at VB in 2009 at a very solemn occasion, Anzac Dawn Service.

regards

Judy

[spof]

Norman, I was focusing on "I think that the statement brings clarity to the view of the official organisers of such occasions, in this case the Australian military authorities".

Actually thinking about it more, to me the quote from Russ doesn't make it clear in any way that what he was told by the CWGC representative is the view of the the Australian military authorities. It states that the CWGC representative objected and warned the Australian authorities. Could it have been the view of the CWGC rather than the Australian Army?

Certainly there didn't seem any objection from the Australian military authorities (quite the opposite actually) to the WWI re-enactment at VB in 2009 at a very solemn occasion, Anzac Dawn Service.

regards

Judy

Judy

I wonder there might be a difference in attitudes between a commemorative service at a memorial and a cemetery burial?

This doesn't cover re-enactors but I imagine the same principle applies. The RBL had a long fight to be allowed to have standard bearers in Pheasant Wood cemetery during the burials in February and the French ones were not allowed in at all. None were allowed in on the 19th but all were welcome at Cobbers for the village commemoration service on the 17th.

Glen

[Seadog]

Judy you appear to be placing your own connotations on the post from Russ, it is no good addressing me with this issue as I was not there. If you have doubts over the meaning or otherwise of the statement posted by forum member Russ on this topic then you should address those questions directly to him via this thread. I have no problem with understanding the statement posted as it seems pretty clear to me.

I have no idea if this will help you but I have been informed by the CWGC that the responsibility for the organisation of military funerals in CWGC war cemeteries falls to the appropriate national authority, in this case the Australian Army and that also seems quite clear enough to me insofar that they, the Australian Army will see to all aspects of the ceremony including any security aspects if required and however caused.

Norman

[judy7007]

Norman - it seems to me that you are placing your own connotations. You say the statement from the CWGC representative makes clear the attitude of the Australian Military Authorities. I see nothing at all in the quote that says anything (or implies anything) about attitudes of the Australian Army.

What do you see in the quote that makes it clear what the Australian Army thinks?

Judy

[Chris Noble]

Many thanks Russ for posting the photos.

All the best.

Chris.

[PBI]

Friends..just to make it PERFECTLY clear regarding the presence of Re/enactors/dressers up.The CWGC Official i SPOKE to at Prowse Point stated that the CWGC stance,was that the Ersatz Soldiers were NOT repeat NOT to be ADMITTED to the Cemetery whilst the Service was in progress,and that the Australian Army and Security WERE VERY aware that there may be some of the Ersatz Soldiers turning up,and were aware of their (His) prescence,but the CWGC were more than happy enough for the Ersatz Soldier to carry out His posing for Photos etc,etc, OUTSIDE the Cemetery whilst the service was in Progress..The Hard fact remains that the Ersatz Soldier did not enter the Cemetery,until after the Service was over,and that when he did the Congregation were leaving the Cemetery,and were more than happy to talk to Him.I for one would have not have tangled with the very large Australian Senior NCO who was monitoring the checking in of of Guests,V.I.Ps,and members of the Public arriving for the Service.The afore mentioned Senior NCO was extremely Polite,Smart,helpful,and was a credit to His Unit and Country,i am sure that a few words from this imposing Figure would have been sufficient to inform the Ersatz Soldier of his Duties and requirements during the Ceremony.No Names No Pack Drill.At the End of the Day the Ersatz Soldier did not enter the Cemetery until the final conclusion of the Service,and behaved with respect and Decorum.Kind regards to All.Russ.

[judy7007]

Friends..just to make it PERFECTLY clear regarding the presence of Re/enactors/dressers up.The CWGC Official i SPOKE to at Prowse Point stated that the CWGC stance,was that the Ersatz Soldiers were NOT repeat NOT to be ADMITTED to the Cemetery whilst the Service was in progress,and that the Australian Army and Security WERE VERY aware that there may be some of the Ersatz Soldiers turning up,and were aware of their (His) prescence,but the CWGC were more than happy enough for the Ersatz Soldier to carry out His posing for Photos etc,etc, OUTSIDE the Cemetery whilst the service was in Progress..The Hard fact remains that the Ersatz Soldier did not enter the Cemetery,until after the Service was over,and that when he did the Congregation were leaving the Cemetery,and were more than happy to talk to Him.I for one would have not have tangled with the very large Australian Senior NCO who was monitoring the checking in of of Guests,V.I.Ps,and members of the Public arriving for the Service.The afore mentioned Senior NCO was extremely Polite,Smart,helpful,and was a credit to His Unit and Country,i am sure that a few words from this imposing Figure would have been sufficient to inform the Ersatz Soldier of his Duties and requirements during the Ceremony.No Names No Pack Drill.At the End of the Day the Ersatz Soldier did not enter the Cemetery until the final conclusion of the Service,and behaved with respect and Decorum.Kind regards to All.Russ.

Thanks Russ. This now seems to me to be very clear that it was the CWGC stance that the Ersatz soldiers were not to be admitted to the Cemetery and that the Australian Army took their directions from the CWGC. As this was a burial, I think it is important that this stance was taken and I have every respect for it. I do think Anzac Day at VB was different, as has been mentioned, but to attribute the decision to the Australian Army still does not fit with me at all.

Judy

[ulsterlad2]

PBI

Thanks for sharing your photos. Brilliant.

[judy7007]

PBI

Thanks for sharing your photos. Brilliant.

I agree wholeheartedly. In my discussions I have omitted a hugely important point - thank you to those who brought it to us by photo. I was at Prowse Point cemetery just three weeks ago and can so visualise it all. Many thanks

Judy

[PBI]

Greetings Judy,I feel sure that the sentiments of the Senior CWGC Staff on that Day would have been passed on to the Australian Army,and Personnel providing the Security for the Ceremony via the chain of command or as a Memo/indirect verbal order.I cannot speak for the Australian Army personnel involved in the Service or Private Mathers Relatives and their attitudes to the presence of Ersatz Soldiers,but whatever their thoughts,the Ersatz did not attempt to take part in the Service and was not allowed in the Cemetery whilst the Service was in progress.Private Alan Mather was finally laid to rest by his countrymen with the utmost respect and dignity..the presence of the Ersatz Soldier had NO IMPACT whatsoever on the Service.....Kind Regards,Russ.....Many thanks for all the Kind Comments on my very amateur Photographs of Private Mather being finally laid to rest.

[judy7007]

Greetings Judy,I feel sure that the sentiments of the Senior CWGC Staff on that Day would have been passed on to the Australian Army,and Personnel providing the Security for the Ceremony via the chain of command or as a Memo/indirect verbal order.I cannot speak for the Australian Army personnel involved in the Service or Private Mathers Relatives and their attitudes to the presence of Ersatz Soldiers,but whatever their thoughts,the Ersatz did not attempt to take part in the Service and was not allowed in the Cemetery whilst the Service was in progress.Private Alan Mather was finally laid to rest by his countrymen with the utmost respect and dignity..the presence of the Ersatz Soldier had NO IMPACT whatsoever on the Service.....Kind Regards,Russ.

Thank you Russ. I am sure it was a most emotional day. The photos say it all - and more. I will never forget being at Fromelles either. Never in my wildest imagination could I have ever thought I would be present at the burial of a WWI soldier. Nothing, ever, will match that for me. Lest we forget

Kind regards

Judy

[PBI]

Amen to that Judy..I was very,very,pleased to make new friends amongst the Australians present at Prowse Point,and also it was very good to meet old Friends from the GWF.

[Capt_Starlight]

Excellent work in locating and identifying Pte Mather.

Damn fine work with the photos and from their appearance the ceremony.

The "walt' to use the ARRse name, was rightly kept out of the ceremony proper. He cannot even stand at ease correctly!

Still dislike the chrome work on the L1A1 - just does not look right (nor the use of the white belts for that matter). Gloves ? 'Effete'(sorry) and I would imagine make the rifles a pain to grasp properly in some movements.

[Martin Brown]

I was proud to be at the funeral of Alan Mather and to represent the group, with Richard Osgood. It was stunning to see all the effort that was made to lay him to rest, but most of all I was humbled to meet his thoughtful, friendly and charming descendants.

[SiegeGunner]

The RBL had a long fight to be allowed to have standard bearers in Pheasant Wood cemetery during the burials in February and the French ones were not allowed in at all.

What was the objection to RBL and French veteran standard bearers? The exclusion of the French standard bearers seems particularly undiplomatic.

[Peter Bennett]

When I was there on 10th February there were a number of French Standard Bearers.

[ianw]

It's amazing to contrast the weather conditions in February with those on the opening day - about a 35 degree C differential, I would imagine.

Personally, I can't see why standard bearers of either nationality may have been objected to. Their presence seems most appropriate.

[ianw]

... but most of all I was humbled to meet his thoughtful, friendly and charming descendants.

And I suspect they will have also been very pleased to meet you given what you have helped do for their family.

Well done, Martin.

[ceebee]

To add some more information, a copy of Alan Mather's obituary, which was published in the Sydney Morning Herald on 2 July 2010, is provided below.

World War I digger enlisted at 35

MALCOLM BROWN

July 2, 2010

Alan Mather ... divided his time between making wine and farming sheep before he enlisted in Inverell.

Alan James Mather, 1880-1917

In 1917, Alan Mather was killed in action in Belgium but his body was lost in the confusion of battle. He was one of 6178 Australians who served in the Ypres campaign and his name was added to the Menin Gate among those with no known grave. It is only now, with the help of DNA matching, that his story can be completed.

A question might arise why Alan Mather joined the Kurrajong March, a call for volunteers in Inverell, in northern NSW, in January 1916 to fight in the Great War. He was in his mid-30s and could have left the fighting to men 15 years or more younger. But such was the spirit of the times that he responded. There were 114 at the first muster, and they set off, in the style of the Cooee March a year earlier, to gather more volunteers. They marched to Delungra, then took the train, stopping at Warialda and Moree and, their numbers having swelled, stopped at an Army camp at Narrabri.

Most of the volunteers enlisted in the 33rd Battalion AIF, "New England's Own", which was forming that month on the Armidale showground. The battalion's first, and only, commanding officer was Lieutenant Colonel Leslie Morshead. Mather signed up on January 12, 1916.

The original Mather in the New England district was Thomas, who was born in Glasgow in 1845 and migrated in 1860 with his mother and two sisters, landing at Maitland. He travelled north by bullock dray and settled in Inverell in 1870, where he started a vineyard, acquired property and became the mayor. Alan James Mather, one of six children, was born in Inverell in 1880 to Thomas and Mary Ann. He went to Hawkesbury Agricultural College to study viticulture and returned to the district to work on his father's vineyard, which won numerous prizes at agricultural shows in Australia and overseas. Alan Mather also took out a 99-year lease on a grazing property, ''Flaggy'', near Pindari, and divided his time between his sheep and his grapes. He served in the Inverell Light Horse for three years.

In 1916, Mather's battalion became part of the 9th Brigade of the 3rd Australian Division. It left Sydney in September that year and arrived in Plymouth on October 29. The battalion was sent to France on December 20. When the British and Dominion forces switched their focus to the Ypres sector of Belgium in mid-1917, 33 Battalion was engaged. The first major battle of this offensive, the Battle of Messines, began on June 7, 1917, involving 216,000 men from Australia, New Zealand and Britain. Mather was pitched immediately into the thick of the fighting. Somewhere in the battle, he took possession of a German pickelhaube, or spiked helmet, which he put in his knapsack as a trophy.

The next day, Mather was in a trench at St Lyon, carrying his heavy knapsack, ammunition and grenades and wearing a slouch hat. A German shell burst hit the trench. Private A.H. Pitkin said later: ''He was blown to pieces by a shell when in the trenches. I was right alongside of him when knocked.'' The company commander wrote that Alan Mather was ''one of my best and most trusted men''.

News of Mather's death went back to the family. His younger brother, Douglas, was jackarooing on a property near Collarenebri and came back to help the family. Douglas's son, also Alan, born in 1925, said he knew about Mather's death but his father did not talk about it much. Another of Douglas's sons, John, born in 1929, said: ''Uncle Alan was killed in the war. That is all we knew.''

In August 2008, archaeologists working on the Ploegsteert project in Belgium, an investigation of the battlefields of World War I, discovered the body underneath the site of what was apparently an enormous bomb blast. They found the remains of his rifle, ammunition, corps badges and the contents of his pockets and haversack. An identification disk was found but was too corroded to provide any useful information. Experts from Bradford University in England cleaned and conserved the objects, and experts at the Universities of Leuven, Cranfield and Oxford, studying the chemical composition of the bones, were able to narrow down the place of birth to a few locations in NSW. It was shown that he had lived a fairly active physical life, with heavy muscle attachments to his bones and wear on his spine.

The Australian Army commissioned DNA testing on surviving relatives. The younger Alan Mather was able to put the investigators on to an even closer relative, a cousin living in Armidale, Cath Mitchell, who was aged 96. The identification confirmed, the family started to feel closure.

The name of Private Alan Mather, Service Number 1983, will be removed from the Menin Gate and he is to be formally buried, with full military honours, at the Prowse Point Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery in Belgium.

Alan Mather is survived by many cousins, nephews and nieces, and their children.

[spof]

What was the objection to RBL and French veteran standard bearers? The exclusion of the French standard bearers seems particularly undiplomatic.

Mick,

In the context of how this thread has turned, it wasn't so much their presence but whether they - as non-military - could be in the cemetery itself. Eventually, the RBL were allowed to have 2 men on the terrace near the Cross of Sacrifice but the French were not allowed into the cemetery at all as Peter's photo shows.

The fact that the authorities were trying to organise a month long event in northern Europe in February made it hard enough, having to coordinate soldiers from 2 countries to to pay due respect to the fallen meant it was extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have "others" in the cemetery.

Glen

[Recce_Mitch]

Thanks for sharing your photos.

Cheers

Paul

[Ogilwy]

PBI,

Thanks for posting the pictures, an excellent selection!

I was the other British soldier there in uniform! I however, actually am a serving Warrant Officer, as well as part of the digging team from No Man's Land, so felt both obliged and proud to be able to attend in formal dress.

Can I get a copy of your pictures if possible please? I'm usure if I can copy the album from here and tend to be a bit of an IT luddite, (bombs are no trouble but computers !!!!!). As you will understand I did not take a camera as to do so would have been wrong in uniform and I'm relying on the pictures from the rest of the group.

Please PM me if you wish as we may well have met at the service or during the following dig at Plug street.

Thanks,

Rod

[PBI]

PBI,

Thanks for posting the pictures, an excellent selection

Please PM me if you wish as we may well have met at the service or during the following dig at Plug street.

Thanks,

Rod

Hello Rod..please feel free to copy my Photos,if you cant download them from Flickr i will be more than Happy to put them on to a CD for you.I dont think we met at the Service as i was right at the far end of the Cemetery squeezed tight next to the Press enclosure.I couldnt move once i was embedded so to speak.After the Ceremony i walked back to the Cafe opposite the Ploegsteert Memorial,had myself a few Beers,Chatted to Members of the Australian Ceremonial Unit,then back to my Hotel to celebrate my Birthday in fine style.I did manage to meet up with Chris Locke at the Service.

[The Gray Ghost]

Hi to everyone who has submitted to this topic,

My name is Doug and I am a great nephew of 1983 Pte Alan James Mather. I was at his re-interrment. I would like to thank those of you who came who I didn't know and still have not met. If I had discovered this forum prior to going to Belgium it would have been awesome to cross paths and shake some hands, possibly even bend some elbows!

I would like to comment on some of the topics discussed previously...

As far as time taken to announce the date of the interrment, I think it was a complex issue involving many party's. I personally wouldn't point my finger at any of them involved as from my perspective they did all they could to accommodate my family. Which considering the complexity of involvement with some of the officials who were originally named as going to be present would have meant that many calendars had to be consulted, from royalty on down a very long line! I know that any consultation with our family involved contacting numerous elderly, 80's and 90's age bracket, family members and meant it took quite a long time for any processes we as a family were involved in to run their course.

We as a family are so thankful for the No Man's Land group for their discovery and cannot express adequately our thanks for their care of our relative. Those of us who went to Belgium, my dad John(81!!), my sister Kim, my nephew Tom, Cousins Jenny, Judy and her son Tom(who is the handsome man in uniform!) were humbled and deeply touched by our encounter with this team. Your Covert Ops will never be forgotten!

The Australian Army History Unit is another group that must be thanked as well for their diligence and perserverence in the quest to identify our relative. They were great men to meet and get to know in this process. Thanks to Roger, Andrew and Paul in particular. My after first night morning will make sure I remember you!

I met the re-enactor in the morning prior to the service and was not in any way offended by his presence. I was more impressed by his committment to honour my relative than anything else. Chris had only had an hours sleep the previous night due to wanting to make it in time for the ceremony and having to drive a not insignificant distance, for an Englishman anyway! Due to transport issues, I found myself being taken to Prowse Point about 8am and sensed no hostility between Chris and any of the officials present. I would suggest that any official warnings were given very discreetly and without any malice from either side of the fence. Chris seemed more than happy to in a sense "Guard the Gate", I actually thought that to be quite appropriate as Alan had died fighting under British command. I know that it wasn't an official thing, but I took it as a family member as a "I'll guard the gate and make sure you get the respect you deserve cobber". At least this, in talking with Chris, was how I interpreted his presence and part in things.

My interaction with all of the Australian Army officials present was surprisingly warm and down to earth. I had expected things to be much stiffer and formal. The human-ness shown to us by these men and women was much appreciated. To be on first name terms for a couple of days with an ambassador, the Chief Of Army, the large Senior NCO mentioned in a previous post plus other high ranking men and women was humbling and disarming. After their involvement in the Fromelles ceremony I was surprised by how personally attached they each got to Alan. We shared as much as we could with them about him and his history. All of us family members who were there deeply appreciated each and everyone of them. The Fed Guard boys did such an awesome job of all their official duties and our interactions with them will stay with each of us always.

Even though none of us knew Alan we were deeply affected by his burial, the time surrounding it and the people we have met through the whole process. I stood in Prowse Point and was amazed at how beautiful a place it was. Alan as a farmer/grazier could not be buried anywhere more apt. The wheat fields and livestock are worthy accompaniments for his final resting place. I met a Frenchman on the day prior to the ceremony, we spoke and parted. He returned the next day to Alan's service and we spoke again and his words on parting were that "I will come back every ANZAC day for Alan for you." Thank you Ben.

A side note that some of you may find interesting is that I was given some reading material by Jenny's uncle Doug to give to her on the flight to Paris. Upon reading this it was found she had a great uncle on her fathers side, John Robert Worgan, who had died and was buried somewhere "over there". We discovered that he was killed either the day before or the same day as Alan and was buried at Toronto Avenue. Amazing that two men who would have known each other, since they were from the same town, were killed in the same battle and yet still managed to have a relative in common in the future and were buried pretty much in sight of each other. It became an extremely emotional time for Jenny as the enormity of it all was overwhelming.

I also must mention Jerone. He is a Belgian man whose knowledge of Australian troops in Belgium is quite possibly unparallled. He gave us much time and spent the whole week answering questions that, since none of us knew much about WW1, would have probably seemed ridiculous! Thank you mate. I would appreciate your guiding through the finer points of a Trapiste amongst others...

Finally, thank you once again to all who came and honoured Alan's sacrifice. To those who have posted photo's and comments of respect, thank you.

Alan's decision to join the war effort changed my family history forever. His father had died six months before he was killed which meant had he returned he would have been head of the Mather clan. This meant my grandfather as a younger son had left to seek his own fortune as was customary, but with these two deaths he had to return to the family home and become responsible for those left behind. I don't know what drove Alan to enlist. I never will. Much of our family's records and history was destroyed or lost during the depression years. Now, a proud piece of our heritage has been restored.

Be At Peace Alan,

Doug Mather.