Burial of an Australian Soldier, July 2010

[Seadog]

The detailed news of the Prowse Point interment is very welcome and it seems like there are soon going to be some of the most important few days for Australia on the Western Front that there has been for many years. A splendid level of identification of those found both at Pheasant Wood and Private Mather certainly emphasises the importance of DNA matching and particular in respect of Pheasant Wood the efforts of all concerned in putting all of the details of the possible matches in the public domain.

There are however the remains of 15 British Soldiers of the old BEF killed in 1914 and found in 2009 to which such investigative techniques deserve to be applied in an effort to name some if not all. Please view this thread and help us make this happen.

Beaucamps-Ligny (New thread)

Regards

Norman

[green_acorn]

Hendo

The word 'embargoed' is the term used in the media for anything which must not be publicised before a specific date or time. It was the term used by CWGC.

It implies only that the information must not be released before the given date/time as set by the authority releasing that information.

Terry,

No worries, I understand. Possibly the additional information about the commandoes may have helped explain the extension of the embargo. Oh and plus we have had a change in prime Minister which would have delayed everything as well.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Seadog]

The CWGC website details are still not updated

"Members of the Australian Army will bury Private Mather with military honours. The time for the reburial is to be confirmed. Once details are available, they will appear here on the CWGC website".

Meaning that those who are not fortunate to be members of this forum, i.e the majority, are still in the dark about the timing of the ceremony. Yet again this info is posted on their home page and not in the "events" section which the CWGC agreed to do a couple of year ago. I cannot understand why they use the home page for such announcements as its purpose is normally to provide an access index to the web site. If the CWGC used the events section they could then provide a link to the official event details as per the Australian site posted here. Not very good in my opinion.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I wonder if there may be a degree of reticence about promulgating the details of the ceremony due to the presence of VIPs - no doubt there will be tight security at Fromelles including armed French police. One would imagine that there will not be such a degree of protection at Prowse Point.

[Seadog]

I think that there is a general reticence and reluctance to publicise such events happening in Commission cemeteries, Period!. In fact the Prowse Point item seems to be included in the "News Release" section. Mind you this is useful as well.

Events

"The Commonwealth War Graves Commission takes part in a range of exhibitions and events throughout the year giving people a chance to meet our staff face to face and find out more about our work.This page, therefore, outlines these events and also details any ceremonies at our cemeteries of which we are aware or are participating."

Do check back regularly. Last update 01/07/10

Regards

Norman

[green_acorn]

Norman and Ian,

Come on fellas I think your comments and what you imply is being harsh, unnecessary and in the circumstances unrealistic, not just to the CWGC, but to the OAWG, the Australian Army and in the case of British soldiers, the MOD. As for the comments about Michelin restaurants ......

Remember, for those participating on an official level from Australia, whether they be politican, general or soldier, this isn't just an overnight bus trip from London, with freshly pressed uniforms in suit bags. The one set of people (in particular the Guard of Honour and Catafalque Party) will be the same one that is used at Fromelles a few days before, not a new bus of squadies over from Aldershot. They will need some time to redo their gear, recce the site, do a rehearsal etc.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Seadog]

Hendo what are you actually talking about when you refer to me in your post? I would very much like to know. If by any chance it is to do with my concerns regarding the dissemination of event information relating to new interments by the CWGC then perhaps you will advise me, otherwise I have made no comments whatsoever regarding the subject matter in your last post.

Awaiting clarification

Edited to add:

Nice to see that full details of the Prowse Point event is now on the CWGC website under "Ceremonies".

Norman

[ianw]

Hendo,

For clarification, I was solely responsible for what I thought were obviously tongue in cheek comments mentioning Michelin restaurants. Norman quite correctly took me to task for making these comments on a serious thread and I removed them immediately. Unfortunately one comment I could not remove as it was quoted by an Australian Pal (who I think in any case realised that the comment was not too serious.)

Norman has continually pointed out (and I share his view) that the information about the burial at Prowse Point has unfortunately been slow to be released. This being arguably part of a general reticence on behalf of the CWGC to release information

By the way, I fully accept your points about the need for the honour party to rest after Fromelles and recce Prowse Point etc. I am going to Fromelles on 19th July and will be taking things very seriously, I assure you.

Regards Ian

[green_acorn]

Norman and Ian,

I took the comments about "there is a general reticence and reluctance to publicise such events happening in Commission cemeteries" and the later addition of ", Period!." as to infer a level of bureaucratic "hiding" which I do not think is the case, I was being mindful that the CWGC is only doing what the responsible authorities, the Australian Army and the Office of Australian War Graves have asked, "delay publicising the information (embargo) until the Australian Minister for Defence and the Minister for Defence Personnel and Veterans Affairs can publicly make the announcement, as the family have agreed to. Therefore I thought from your conversation that you were both being a bit harsh, noting as I did the previous comment about Michelin 2 star restaurants. From my perspective as a former Australian soldier who knows "bureaucrats" involved in the process, I think they are doing a great job and I just wish I could be there to witness the consecration of the Fromelles Cemetery (and get close enough to Lambis and to shake his hand and thank him) and then get to Prowse Point to honour our other soldier.

I accept that from the remove of distance you may have both gotten the impression that the information about PTE Mathers burial has been delayed unnecessarily, or I may have misinterpeted your intent. But as I said I would suggest events in Australia, the death of our commando's and the week prior to that the ousting of the Prime Minister by his Deputy, are probably the causes of about a one to two week delay in notifying the public, hardly the fault of the CWGC or other "faceless bureaucrats".

Anyway guys, onto better things. Ian I hope you can post pics of the ceremonies when you get home.

Cheers,

Hendo

[keithmroberts]

I'm pleased to see that the burial is on the homepage of the CWGC site, and that clicking on the paragraph takes you to full details. Lets hope they will make this a habit.

Keith

[ianw]

Hendo,

I will certainly try to post some Fromelles pics and am very much looking forward to being there.

I think we appreciate here that the Australian authorities drove the news agenda to a substantial degree. Your explanation of events in Australia that may have impacted this is appreciated. There is a general query over here about the tendency of the British authorities to clutch information about the discovery of Great War causalties to their collective bosoms. You may be aware that we hope for that a comprehensive Fromelles style ID process will be put in place for 15 British soldiers found quite recently.

I had a bit of prior knowledge about Pte Mathers having attended a lecture by Martin Brown (whose group found Pte Mathers) this Spring. At that time his ID wasn't confirmed. Our point is that even without a solid ID, information about the burial should be promulgated as soon as possible to allow the maximum number of people of all nationalities time to adjust their travel arrangements to attend.

[Richard Osgood]

Dear all,

can't comment on Fromelles but have some knowledge on Pte Mather. Hendo is bang on in much of what he says. Specific announcements on the identification of Private Mather were delayed as a result of the sad loss of Australian service persons in Afghanistan and the change in PM in Australia both to give these news stories the time they needed ans also to try to ensure that the news of Private Mather's identification was not lost in those current affairs - giving him the respect he deserved. It took all those involved in Alan Mather's identification 2 years to get the ID and thus nobody wanted to rush things (plans were made to give enough time for the carving of the headstone to change from 'an Unknown Australian' to a specific name right up to the week of the funeral to give maximum chances for an ID). The family, understandably, also had to be informed first and the Minster for Veterans was to make the announcement.

With regards the funeral - well the 22nd July 2010 was not settled on until very recently. As said, our processes (as Ian will recall from the lecture - forensic anthropology, forensic dentistry, isotope analysis, historical archive and archaeological context studies and DNA) - took a VERY long time to complete but we felt it was worth doing, so it proved. Thus, until all these processes were complete there could be no announcement on specific date for the funeral. It was always hoped that it would be close to the Fromelles ceremony so that the Australian authorities, bearer party etc could attend.

The funeral took a huge amount of organising by the Australian army especially with having to co-ordinate local attendance and ensuring that all the needs of the family would be catered for and thus I think the date of 22nd July was only settled on just before it was announced by minister and then (as protocol demands) by CWGC. The specifics for the funeral were being worked on until the day before the announcement and thus CWCG were pretty prompt here in updating website really. Remember - its not simply the 22nd for the Mather family given all the planning they need to do and with ancilliary elements being arranged to ensure their experience is both a moving, respectful and positive one. They have described the ID success as being 'better than winning the lottery'

I understand pals frustrations in wanting to be able to schedule in travel arrangements so as to pay their repects at funerals but, although a rough window of opportunity had been pencilled in for the funeral (ie near the Fromelles event) the lateness in identifying a specific date and funeral order lay largely as a result of trying our utmost to gain an ID and thus to give Alan the funeral he deserved over 90 years on.

I think Pte Mather should have a worthy level of remembrance at his funeral - with his nearest family in attendance. It is interesting to note the rank of dignitaries at the funeral compared to that he would have had at his burial in 1917 had he had one! Martin and I will be at the funeral if anyone wants to say hello!

Sincere apologies for being so long-winded and hope this posting helps!

Remembering Private Mather

all things good

Richard

[Fedelmar]

Lest we forget!

[ianw]

Richard,

Many thanks for the details of the funeral and the various matters that interposed themselves - though I recall that Martin told me in the Spring that the interment would take place in the week following the Fromelles ceremony.

I am delighted that his family will be making the trip. As you say, the contrast between his initial interment in the soil of Flanders and this current one is absolutely amazing and a tribute to all those who put in the effort to find him and identify him.

I think that the CWGC are now perhaps more mindful of the interest that the discovery of remains generates and the public's right to have the information of these ceremonies communicated to them in as timely a way as possible.

The sole reason for scrutiny of the detail of the announcements is so that we can continue to meet the committment :-

We will remember them.

[Richard Osgood]

Hi all,

Order of Service for those interested:

Service of Reinterment for Private Alan J Mather

Wednesday, July 14th, 2010

Service of Reinterment for Private Alan J Mather of the First World War whose remains were found near St Yvon

11.00 22 July 2010 at Prowse Point Cemetery

_

So far from home, never forgotten

May you rest in peace, bearing an honoured name

_

Welcome

By Lieutenant Colonel Michael Toohey

_

Address

The Hon Alan Griffin MP, Minister for Veterans Affairs and Defence Personnel

Eulogy

Read by Pte. Mather’s family

Greeting and Prayers

Led by Chaplain Russell Mutzelburg, Principal Chaplain Australian Army

Grace and peace from the Lord be with you.

Response: And Also with you.

_

We have come together today to thank God for the service Private Alan Mather rendered to Australia, Belgium, other allied nations and the cause of freedom;

to mourn and honour him; and to support each other in grief.

We face the certainty of our own death and judgement,

yet Christians believe that those who die in Christ share eternal life with him.

Therefore in faith and hope we turn to God, who created and sustains us all.

Let us pray.

_

Hymn

[After the hymn the Bearer Party with coffin is led into the cemetery by the chaplain who reads the following Scripture passages while leading].

_

Psalm and Prayers

Led by Chaplain Catie Inches-Ogden, Senior Chaplain Australian Army Headquarters

Jesus said ‘I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die’ John 11: 25

_

Psalm 23 – A Psalm of David

The Lord is my shepherd;

I shall not want.

He makes me lie down in green pastures;

He leads me beside the still waters.

He restores my soul;.

He guides me in straight paths

for His name’s sake.

Even though I walk through the valley of the dark shadow,

I will fear no evil,

for You are with me.

Your rod and staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me

in the presence of my enemies;

You have anointed my head with oil;

my cup runs over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,

and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

_

The Rock. His work is perfect, for all His ways are just: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He.

Blessed be the true Judge. The soul of every living thing is in Your hand. Your eyes are upon all the ways of the children of men, giving everyone according to their ways and according to the fruits of their doings.

The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord

_

Lowering of the Coffin

You are asked to stand.

_

Chaplain Inches-Ogden says:

who died and is alive and reigns with you now and for ever, Amen.

_

As the coffin is lowered the chaplain says:

and in the glorious company of the saints in light, Amen.

(Volleys will be fired after the “Amen” is said)

_

The Ode

Read by Major General Brian Dawson

_

They shall not grow old,

as we that are left grown old.

Age shall not weary them,

nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,

we will remember them. We will remember them.

_

Lest we forget. Lest we forget.

_

The Last Post

Silence

Rouse

[you may be seated]

_

Wreath Laying

Wreaths will be laid by:

Mr John Mather, Nephew of Private Alan Mather;

The HON Alan Griffin MP, Minister for Veterans’ Affairs;

Lieutenant General Ken Gillespie, Chief of Army;

The Representative of the Belgian Government;

Mr Gilles Deleu, Mayor of Comines-Warneton;

MC will invite additional floral tributes from those present.

_

Anthems

The National Anthem of Australia

The National Anthem of Belgium

_

Benediction

Led by Principal Chaplain Mutzelburg

_

Go forth into the world in peace; be of good courage; hold fast to that which is good; render to no one evil for evil, rather, strengthen the faint hearted, support the weak, help the afflicted, honour all people; love and serve the Lord, rejoicing in the power of the Holy Spirit. And the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, be with you all, evermore. Amen

[Sniper Snoop]

You can find my pictures at:

http://forumeerstewe...p=318719#318719

http://forumeerstewe...p=318721#318721

http://forumeerstewe...p=318722#318722

http://forumeerstewe...p=318723#318723

http://forumeerstewe...p=318724#318724

http://forumeerstewe...p=318725#318725

I give everyone the permission to use pictures. On one condition: that my name appears on the pictures or on the website, book etc ... where the pictures are. You can find my name at: http://ieperboog-in-foto.tk/

[Seadog]

Thanks for posting the photo links. Just one question what is the significance of the person dressed in WW1 uniform in the first batch and what was he doing there?.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

SS - many thanks for taking the pictures and making them available to us.

Thanks Ian

[ianw]

Many congratulations to our Pal Martin Brown who should be rightly proud to see the reward for his efforts.

[green_acorn]

Thank you very much for posting the pictures and thank you to those members of the forum who found PTE Mathers - someday I will buy you a beer.

Cheers,

Chris Henderson

[Fedelmar]

THANK YOU!

Lest we forget.

[ianw]

I note that a re-enactor snuck in there! He only appears in one picture .

Did one of the real soldiers shoot him!

[green_acorn]

Ian,

Or was the "reenactor" a serving soldier dressed in WW1 uniform as an unspoken "point" that this last man was honoured by and joining his WW1 mates?

Cheers,

Hendo

[squirrel]

Smashing photos SS and thanks for sharing them.

[ianw]

Ian,

Or was the "reenactor" a serving soldier dressed in WW1 uniform as an unspoken "point" that this last man was honoured by and joining his WW1 mates?

Cheers,

Hendo

You make a good point Hendo - the ceremony seems to have gone off well so whatever pedigree the "reenactor" had, he may well have added to something to it.