Burial of an Australian Soldier, July 2010

[Seadog]

Members may be interested to know that on the 22nd July 2010 at Prowse Point War Cemetery, Belgium the interment of the remains of an Australian soldier will take place. I do not as yet know the timing of this burial and I will post same as soon as possible unless any member can do so. This information is courtesy of the CWGC Ypres Office for which I am grateful. You will note that there is no mention of this on the CWGC web site.

Norman

Prowse Point:

[PBI]

Thanks for this Information Norman..i will be staying in the very near vicinity at the Date mentioned with Friends and we would like to pay our respects to this Brave Australian Soldier.Any more information that you can furnish will be very welcome...Regards Russ...

PS i phoned CWGC HQ at Maidenhead today and they professed to know nothing of this event...also my previous E-Mails have remained unanswered by the CWGC HQ.

[Seadog]

Seems about par for the course Russ!.

Regards

Norman

[Dickie]

Norman, do you know any details regarding the finding of this soldier?

lovely photo, BTW

[Scotty]

Norman.

The burial may be for this man. The AHA have been searching for descendants to provide DNA. They have a name so some form of identification must have been found. This appeal for descendants appeared on a private web site. Scotty.

[Seadog]

Dickie, I have no knowledge of how or where the soldiers’ remains were found but perhaps other members will be able to inform us. The 2007 excavations in the area of “Plugstreet” Wood by the “No Mans Land” group did not uncover any human remains according to their report on the web. I do note however that the details in Scottys post do indicate that the remains were found as the result of a deliberate "dig".

Scotty, that certainly does sound like the man whose remains are to be interred in July. As you say there must have been some evidence found that indicated the probability that he is John Chapman. Because PBI (Russ) intends to attend the ceremony no doubt we will have more information when he returns.

Regards

Norman

[Scotty]

I believe this may be the Australian found with his full kit by No Man's Land. There was a thread on this and I think Mat McLachlan was involved in this case.

[ianw]

I understand that this soldier was found by Martin Brown's team and was featured in Martin's presentation at the Forum Birmingham Conference - if so a considerable amount is known about the circumstances of his death. He was cut down by an air-bursting shell, I think.

I also seem to recall that Martin and at least some of his team are planning to be at the burial.

It's very regrettable that the CWGC are not giving any publicity to this event - he deserves at least as much recognition as his comrades at Fromelles. I really don't understand the inconsistency of approach. I know that dubious motives can be infered but it would seem more likely that it's just bureaucratic inertia.

[Seadog]

I am (again) getting a little confused here perhaps someone can help. I understand that Martin Brown is part of the “No Mans Land” group and the report of their 2007 excavations at Plugstreet contains “One surprise was that the excavations found no human remains”, I presume then that the remains were found subsequent to this report. We seem to be repeating these same questions time after time with regard to both the finding and interment of such discoveries. The whole process seems so fragmented and confusing that it would be good if there was a greater attitude of transparency and devolvement of information from all concerned so that the pertinent facts are in the public domain and readily accessible.

Regards

Norman

[tootrock]

The AHA request for relatives says the body was found in 2008, whereas the Plugstreet dig was in 2007.

Martin

[Seadog]

This is as I see it right now; Scotty has posted a very interesting article about the possible ID of an Australian Soldier found in 2008. The article states that this man will be interred shortly after the main ceremony at Fromelles. The CWGC date at Prowse Point seems to fit these facts. Then we have the “No Mans Land” group posting from Ian that intimates that this man was found as a result of their 2007 excavations despite the fact that their report does not mention this. So are the two finds actually one and the same OR are there in fact TWO separate sets of remains?

Regards

Norman

(Even more confused)

[ianw]

Sorry that I cannot recall the date that the man was found. It may well have been during the 2008 season. Martin was definitely working in the "Plugstreet" area.

At the Birmingham Conference, Martin was careful to explain that there were, at that time, a couple of possible IDs but that he could not confirm who it might be as the results were not absolutely definitive. Interestingly, I recall that isotopic analysis gave a good clue as to where the man came from in Australia.

As might be expected from professional archaeologists, the remains were treated with the utmost respect and extreme efforts were made to tell the man's full story from his remains and their context. Martin's presentation was absolutely fascinating and his team's work exemplary.

I recall that Martin told me that he would be present at the burial - pulling all this together suggests that this burial is of this man but I can't guarantee not to have got the wrong end of the stick and apologise in advance if I have.

[Seadog]

Ian, it certainly sounds like the same man and I wonder if he has been positively identified or will be "Known unto God" whatever the case he will at least be given a proper burial and a headstone which will record his sacrifice.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Norman,

I think the appeal for relatives would have been in an effort to establish a positive ID. His unit is certainly known as he was in full equipment when he fell with all badges etc.

I suppose if he can only be established definitively as one of a couple of men, he will have to be buried as an "Unknown" unless the authorities accept the indirect isotopic evidence of his place of origin as being good enough proof of who is is.

Hopefully, Martin Brown may see this thread and cast some welcome light on it.

Regards Ian

[Auimfo]

This is the blog of the 'Digging Up Plugstreet" team who excavated the site and located the remains of the Australian soldier. A few of us were fortunate enough to have been given a guided tour of the site by Mat and Richard in 2007 (prior to locating the body)

http://plugstreet.blogspot.com/

Cheers,

Tim L.

P.S. I've spent a bit of today looking into Chapman's family and now have a bit more info. With luck I might find an appropriate descendant for DNA in the coming days.

[Seadog]

Tim that is very good news, if you can help with the identification of this soldier it would be excellent. The amazing results obtained at Fromelles prove that even after such a long time it is possible to grant the dignity of a name to those who were missing.

Regards

Norman

[Auimfo]

Well here's a bit more to go on about John CHAPMAN's family

Supposedly he was an only child but he had a half-brother (see below)

Looking at his mother's immediate family.....

Mary Ann JAMIESON was born 1849-50 in Delting, Shetland, Scotland to parents Andrew JAMIESON (a farmer) and Jane PEARSON.

Mary had the following siblings all born in Delting:

Jane b.1835

Margaret b.1837

Thomas b.1839

Hugh b.1841

Andrew b.1845

Mary Ann JAMIESON and her sister Margaret JAMIESON arrived in Brisbane, Australia aboard the 'Maryborough' in August 1866 having embarked at Glasgow.

Mary Ann initially married William BICKHAM in Qld during 1869.

They had a son William BICKHAM (Jnr) born 1870 in Queensland (John's half-brother).

Unfortunately William (Jnr) died at Narrabri NSW in 1883 so no offspring from that line.

Not sure what happened to William BICKHAM (Snr) but there is a death in Sydney NSW during 1891 that might be him.

Mary Ann then married John CHAPMAN in 1877 at Vegetable Creek, Torrington, NSW

They had a son John CHAPMAN (our possible soldier) who was orphaned as a child and brought up by a foster mother.

Now for Margaret JAMIESON's family.

After arriving in Brisbane with her sister, Margaret married John James LESLIE in Queensland during 1868. She died in 1910 at Gympie Qld.

They had the following children in Qld:

John William LESLIE 1869-1957

Andrew LESLIE 1870-1876

Elizabeth LESLIE 1872-1887

Sophia LESLIE 1874-

Jane LESLIE 1876-1900

Ann LESLIE 1878-

Most of the LESLIE children died quite young and never had families and I have so far only been able to trace the family of John William LESLIE.

John William LESLIE married Mary Ann FRASER in 1896 in Queensland

They had the following children:

Edith Marion LESLIE 1896-

William Hector LESLIE 1898- (married Veronica Mary ZONCA in 1932)

Daisy LESLIE 1899-1899

Marjorie LESLIE 1901- (married Michael Joseph DALY in 1931)

John Fraser LESLIE 1903-1985

Helen Isabel LESLIE 1905-1984 (married James Edward MASON 1929)

May LESLIE 1907-

James Munro LESLIE 1909-1941 (Killed during WW2)

Douglas LESLIE 1913-1979

And that's where I'm presently at............

Cheers,

Tim L.

[PBI]

Thank you to everyone so far for their most interesting and informative contributions and input,but can ANYONE please tell me the Time of the Service etc ..again why all the Secrecy and lack of transparency by the MOD/CWGC....is the information only to be shared amongst a select few ?.I for one find the whole situation very odd indeed.Are only a select few to be present at the Ceremony ?...It certainly seems that way to me,and i still have not had a reply via E-Mail or Landline from the CWGC.

[Auimfo]

Sorry PBI, but I don't know.

Happily though........it seems I may just have stumbled upon a contact for the child of Helen Isabel LESLIE. A phone call in the morning might solve the problem.

Cheers,

Tim, L.

[PBI]

Great News Tim,i hope that a time for the service can finally be assertained.If any of Pte Chapmans surviving Family members/Relatives,plus your good self and your fellow Australian Members of the Forum would like some Photographic records of the event please do not hesitate to PM me.Kind Regards (Russ) PBI.

[Auimfo]

Just for everyone's information, I contacted the Army investigator researching the identity of the Messines soldier strongly thought to be John CHAPMAN and received the following reply:

I have to advise that we have now identified our Messines soldier, and it has turned out not to be Private Chapman, who was I have to say what we thought to be the highest priority target - one who you would certainly agree was proving to be quite a challenge.

As it turns out, we got a great DNA match with another candidate, and that, together with other dental and pathology information that was available, has enabled us to make a positive match with a soldier from the 33rd Battalion.

All the necessary briefs went up to Minister Griffin a week or so ago, and we have been waiting on a media release before going public (although the NOK have been advised and are very pleased with the news).

Unfortunately the tragic loss of the three Australian soldiers in Afghanistan this past week have probably meant a delay in the announcement, and of course the events of the last 20 hours(!) have also proved to be a distraction.

Nonetheless, I am hoping for the media release to be made in the next few days, at which time we can go public with the full details. I have kept a database of people that have contributed to the pursuit of identity for our Messines soldier, so if you don't mind waiting a little longer, I will forward the details to you as soon as it is cleared for release.

So, even though it's turned out to not be CHAPMAN, the soldier has been positively identified which is great news. Of course the 'events of the past 20 hours' referred to is in regard to the toppling of the Australian Prime Minister by his own party and being replaced by our first female PM.

I hope this has been informative for everone.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[ianw]

Thanks for the update , Tim.

Another positive Aussie ID. Marvellous news.

[Seadog]

Excellent news Tim and good to know that a new headstone bearing the name of the soldier will soon be standing in Prowse Point. Please keep us informed of further news as it happens. Sounds as though yet again the Australians have put a considerable amount of effort into this case and have been justifiably rewarded with the result.

Best Wishes

Norman

[Dickie]

Excellent news about the positive ID.

[green_acorn]

Thank you to everyone so far for their most interesting and informative contributions and input,but can ANYONE please tell me the Time of the Service etc ..again why all the Secrecy and lack of transparency by the MOD/CWGC....is the information only to be shared amongst a select few ?.I for one find the whole situation very odd indeed.Are only a select few to be present at the Ceremony ?...It certainly seems that way to me,and i still have not had a reply via E-Mail or Landline from the CWGC.

PBI,

Mate, you may have the wrong end of the stick blaming the MOD and CWGC, remember this man is Australian and not British, therefore once his nationality was identified during the recovery process the organisations with immediate and direct responsibility for the internment are the Australian Army's "Army History Unit" and the Office of Australian War Graves, a part of our Department of Veteran's Affairs. Naturally the CWGC as a body would be aware of the burial ceremony, but not necessarily the person you spoke to. At this remove it may appear to be semantics as our (Australian) solider is being buried in a CWGC cemetery and his grave will be managed by the CWGC, but like each nation of the Commonwealth, whether it be UK, Indian, NZ, Canada , South Africa and so forth, it is (rightly) the soldiers nations responsibility to organise and conduct the burial, whilst contributing a proportional amount to the maintenance of the cemeteries and work of the CWGC as a whole.

It is the same as the MOD/CWGC (UK element) don't generally and routinely inform the other CWGC nations public of the internment of fallen British soldiers.

Auimfo,

As ever I am in admiration of you commitment and efforts in identifying the fallen and locating their relatives to ensure each and every one of our forefathers is honoured by a named grave and place where relatives can honour them.

Cheers,

Hendo