Burial of an Australian Soldier, July 2010

[Seadog]

PBI,

It is the same as the MOD/CWGC (UK element) don't generally and routinely inform the other CWGC nations public of the internment of fallen British soldiers.

Cheers,

Hendo

Hi Hendo the above statement you have made is not quite the situation as regards the CWGC. After much pressure the Commission did agree to notify the interments of the newly discovered in their war cemeteries together with the actual dates and timings through the medium of their web site which of course is available worldwide. It would appear however that this practice has lapsed in the recent past and that such interments are not being so notified meaning that anyone who desires to pay their respects at such occasions are denied the opportunity.

The situation with this Australian soldier may be a little different due to the attempt to identify the soldier and I expect to be informed either by the CWGC or through this forum of the timing of the interment in good time so that people may attend if they so wish. I hope you will agree that such notifications are the least that we can expect the CWGC to provide for there is to my mind no reason whatsoever to keep such information out of the public domain.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Notwithstanding the nationality of the man found, it is regrettable that there seems to be a reluctance to publicise these burials. The CWGC should have the prime responsibility of

spreading the word about these events given that it is CWGC cemeteries where the burials are taking place.

Of course, we welcome our Aussie friends who come over to attend these events but it is typically Brits who make up the bulk of the potential congregation and we need to be told efficiently when they are happening.

[LizM]

I will definetely be going to this burial as remember when they found him.. The team wanted him identified before all the Fromelles Men in case he got lost in the process, not to be. But hopefully he has been indentified and can rest in peace now with his commrades..

Never to be forgotten.

[Andrew P]

Well done Tim in tracking this down. Hopefully there will be a good number of people in attendance at the burial on the 22nd July.

Cheers

Andrew

[PBI]

I will definetely be going to this burial

Good Morning all.I have just spoken to the CWGC Office in Ypres who have informed me that the Time of the Service will be at 11.00 Hrs on the 22nd of July.After the Service any GWF members attending the service are cordially invited back to the Hollemeersch Hotel at Kemmel for a Drink or Two with me as it is my Birthday.Regards Russ...

[green_acorn]

Normam et al,

Thanks for the correction to my understanding, I was thinking partly in the context of burials from the Pacific/SE Asia and PNG, I very much doubt you routinely hear of the successful recovery of the fallen from Vietnam, PNG and Borneo that the Australian Army History Unit and the OQWG have achieved recently. But my main point was that the "blame" for this single Australian soldier should not solely be directed at the MOD and a lesser degree the CWGC when it is Australian agencies with lead responsibility. I acknowledge that the CWGC is the overarching organisation and that the medium of the www means that theoretically all are informed equally, but lets be honest how many outside of the UK, as a proportion of hits, visit the site for this sort of information?

And I thank the RBL and all the other's who honour every fallen soldier, irrespective of nationality who attend the burials to ensure the soldier is honoured appropriately.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Seadog]

Hendo, you may find it interesting to view Post 55 on this previous thread:

GWF Topic

Regards

Norman

[green_acorn]

Norman,

Thank you, an interesting read. IKnstead of just posting it to their "News" portion of the website, maybe we should encourage the CWGC to send the information to the media outlets. It only takes an email and would do much for public awareness.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Seadog]

A good idea Hendo but unfortunately one which we have already tried and failed with the CWGC. They do I believe insist that such media notifications should be the responsibility of the MOD here in the UK.

An extreme example of this can be seen in the case of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15, the British soldiers found late in 2009 the news of which was completely lacking in the UK media but luckily the local French newspapers did report it and a member kindly posted this on the forum without which we would be none the wiser. Take a look at this thread; I think that you will most certainly find it of interest.

British Soldiers Found:

Regards

Norman

[Martin Brown]

Dear Pals,

I wasn't aware this discussion had kicked off before I had posted an announcement here:

Announcement by NML of discovery

I am very happy to say that partnership between No Man's Land, the Australian War Graves and Army and the universities of Leuven, Oxford and Bradford have got us to a position where we are able to positively identify Pte Mather and lay him to rest with due dignity and honour.

The remains were recovered in 2008, hence the lack of mention in the report for the 2007 season but if you have read our book "Digging Up Plugstreet" you will have read a little about the excavation of the remains there.

There is the official Australian release here:

Australian Defence News

Thank you

Martin

[Richard Osgood]

Dear All,

I concur with Martin - the announcement made today in the National Press in Australia is a result of huge amount of work by many partners - often without charge - which has led to this excellent result. Delays have been incurred for a myriad of reasons - including ensuring that the man's family was informed first. He will be buried with a named headstone and there will be many attending his funeral judging from responses to this thread. It is heartening that Private Alan Mather will be remembered to the same levels as those at Fromelles. I feel I must add that CWGC have been quite splendid throughout the process (as has Australian Army History Unit) in ensuring work was undertaken properly. I would be most surprised if there was any retisence on their part in giving notice of the funeral - I think they would have wanted Canberra to make the announcement in the first place. There are a number of announcements about the finding of the soldier from the 2008 season at Plugstreet on the forum I think...somewhere..!

all things good

Richard

[Terry Denham]

For those querying why there has been no news on the CWGC site about this burial, it is because the release of any information was embargoed till today by the Australian authorities who are organising the burial. CWGC has to comply with this requirement from one of its member nations.

I was informed only ten minutes ago that no details have yet been received by CWGC HQ relating to the ceremony, times etc. so anything posted here should be regarded as provisional. The details of the ceremony will be posted on CWGC's site when they are confirmed.

[tootrock]

The burial is now mentioned on the CWGC site.

Martin

[Kate-s]

This is the blog of the 'Digging Up Plugstreet" team who excavated the site and located the remains of the Australian soldier. A few of us were fortunate enough to have been given a guided tour of the site by Mat and Richard in 2007 (prior to locating the body)

http://plugstreet.blogspot.com/

Cheers,

Tim L.

The address of the Plugstreet Blog has now changed to: http://www.plugstreet-archaeology.com/blog

[PBI]

For those querying why there has been no news on the CWGC site about this burial, it is because the release of any information was embargoed till today

I was informed only ten minutes ago that no details have yet been received by CWGC HQ relating to the ceremony, times etc. so anything posted here should be regarded as provisional. The details of the ceremony will be posted on CWGC's site when they are confirmed.

How did you come by this Information Terry ?...

[Terry Denham]

It was conveyed to me during a conversation with a senior manager there about various topics earlier this afternoon.

[PBI]

Thanks Terry.Kind Regards.Russ.

[Seadog]

Details of the interment have been posted by the CWGC on their web site as already notified on the forum. The problem with this is that such details are normally included in the section “Events” but in this case only appears on the “Home” page. Therefore if the “Events” page is saved as a favourite then viewing this will not provide the information. I am sure that this is an oversight and not the intention of the Commission.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

Whilst I appreciate that there have been issues regarding the correct ID of the soldier to be buried, it is regrettable that the Australian Govt embargo has led to fact of the burial not being adequately publicised. Surely the place and date of the burial could have been announced earlier with a reference to the uncertainty of any identification.

However, all is public now so I hope there is a good turn out for him.

[Guest KevinEndon]

There would have been a far bigger turnout had it been the day after Fromelles but I guess the authorities thought about that and opted for the date they did for some other reason,

Kevin

[PBI]

Still wondering why no time has been given if everything is in place and ready.

[Richard Osgood]

Dear all,

thought that this would be of use for Pals (from the Australian Embassy in Brussels):

Australian WWI soldier - Re-interment ceremony at Prowse Point 22 July

The Australian Minister for Veterans' Affairs and Minister for Defence Personnel, the Hon Alan Griffin MP, announced on 28 June that the remains of an Australian World War I soldier who fought in the Battle of Messines have now been identified.

A combined picture of historical, anthropological and DNA evidence helped establish the identity of the soldier as 1983 Private Alan James Mather of Inverell, NSW.

Private Mather was discovered at Ploegsteert, Belgium, in 2008. His remains were recovered along with a significant amount of equipment, clothing and badges that enabled him to be identified as an Australian infantry soldier. Although a corroded identification disc was also recovered, forensic investigation failed to provide identification details.

Members of the Australian Army will bury Private Mather with full military honours with his comrades at the Prowse Point Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery in Ploegsteert, Belgium on Thursday 22 July 2010.

The Australian Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, the Australian Chief of Army, the Australian Ambassador and members of Private Alan Mather’s family are expected to attend the ceremony.

Members of the public are invited to attend the ceremony.

The Battle of Messines in Belgium was the scene of heavy fighting during 1917, opening with the detonation of 19 British mines underneath the German’s forward trenches, including the mine at Hill 60. The Battle was viewed, at the time, as one of the first major victories of the British forces during WW1.

After the war Private Mather was listed as missing with more than 6,000 other Australian soldiers on the Menin Gate Memorial in Ypres, Belgium.

Re-interment ceremony

The burial of Private Mather will take place between 1100am and Midday on 22nd July 2010 at the Prowse Point Military Cemetery, Comines-Warneton (Ploegsteert), Belgium.

11.00am: The Australian Federation Guard march-in with the coffin

11.05am: Service commences

- Greeting led by Chaplain

- Prayer led by Chaplain

- Hymn: Sung by all

- Psalm read by family member

- Gospel read by Lieutenant General Ken Gillespie, Chief of Army

- Address by the Hon Alan Griffin MP, Minister for Veterans’ Affairs

- Eulogy read by Family

- Prayers led by Chaplain

- Farewell led by Chaplain

- Ode read by Major General Brian Dawson, Military Representative to NATO and EU

- Lowering of the coffin and volleys by the Firing Party

- Last Post played by bugler

- Wreath laying

- Australian and Belgium national anthems are played

- Benediction led by Chaplain

http://www.belgium.embassy.gov.au/bsls/commemo_news.html

all things good

Richard

[Scotty]

Absolutely no chance of that ever happening Ian.

(Quote removed by Scotty 10/7/2010)

[green_acorn]

Whilst I appreciate that there have been issues regarding the correct ID of the soldier to be buried, it is regrettable that the Australian Govt embargo has led to fact of the burial not being adequately publicised. Surely the place and date of the burial could have been announced earlier with a reference to the uncertainty of any identification.

However, all is public now so I hope there is a good turn out for him.

Ianw,

It is unfortunate that Terry used the word embargo which may imply to some a level of secrecy and covertness that I have no doubt was not the intent. Be aware that the working week before the announcement we (Australians) lost three fine special force commando's with another seven seriously injured in the crash of an American helicopter in Afghanistan. I would suggest that this delayed the announcement as the Minister would have wanted a few days grace between the two media stories so that this burial gets its deserved prominence. Having just looked at the Australian ArmyNews newspaper where one would expect it to be announced, it didn't get any column space until yesterdays issue, so many of the GWF'ers are very lucky as many deployed Australian soldiers probably still don't know.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Terry Denham]

Hendo

The word 'embargoed' is the term used in the media for anything which must not be publicised before a specific date or time. It was the term used by CWGC.

It implies only that the information must not be released before the given date/time as set by the authority releasing that information.