phil@basildon Posted 6 May , 2009 Share Posted 6 May , 2009 I had a good look at the website that contained the headstone details. The guy who runs it is something of a local historian for Sheffield. Has anyone been in touch with him? c.g.hobbs@shef.ac.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 6 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2009 Hi Phil, I have an email out to him and I am crossing my fingers. My working assumption is that many of the Bells are interred in one of the cemeteries in Sheffield; the rest may be in Australia. I had no luck on the Sheffield Records web site but that cemetery grave finder on there is far from being exhaustive. Will let folks here know what I find out. I also have emails out to Southampton Libraries the wreck books mentioned previously, and I am shocked, shocked I say that the Ministry of Defense has not replied to my research request re: Albert. -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 6 May , 2009 Share Posted 6 May , 2009 Daniel. The newborn baby son of AE born in 1911 who was unamed at the time of the census (April) is probably Roland R Bell. The other two names you quoted (Maurice and Victor) I can find no record of being born in Sheffield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 6 May , 2009 Share Posted 6 May , 2009 Phoebus I re-visited the Southampton Archives this morning. The book Reports of Enquiries into Wrecks 1914-1920 has ONLY ONE ENTRY for the CALIFORNIA and that is as I reported last week,the grounding of the vessel on 28 June 1914. The Archivist told me that not all ships were subject to this Reporting Regime if they were not in the vicinity of harbours ,and when I described where the ship went down she said there would be no report by the UK Authorities. She did direct me to a microfilm spool which she described as the Lloyd's Confidential List,which showed that on the 8th February 1917 the CALIFORNIA was reported sunk on the 7th. There were three lines covering this event. Your PM Messaging Service has a request for your E-Mail and on receipt I will send you some digipics taken this morning,the account of the grounding and the entry in the Lloyds' Conf. List. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 6 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2009 Thanks, fellas. Nice work. I got a nibble on my email to Southampton archives and they are sending some materials via mail. As per the librarian, she confirmed that losses due to enemy action are not in the wreck reports. Sotonmate, you have a PM waiting. No hits from the cemetery lead yet, nor from the Sheffield forum posts. Anyone close enough to Sheffield to try and have a look at the cemetery registers? I know Albert is probably buried in Sheffield, I just do not know where. Thus far, I have tried the databases for City Road Cemetery, Bungreave Cemetery, General Cemetery, St. Michael's RC, and Eckington Cemetery and none of the Bells we have discussed are in any of them. Crookes Cemetery may have more than Lilian Bell buried there, but until I reach someone in a position to know, we can only guess. http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/libraries/arch...etery-registers I will try and get info remotely, but I am not holding my breath. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Daniel, The Sheffield archives also have the electorial rolls. These are sorted by address so as we have that information we can perhaps find out a bit more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/libraries/arch...etery-registers I will try and get info remotely, but I am not holding my breath. -Daniel There should be a lot of information on the Sheffield site. The Cemetery register and Electorial records can be downloaded. The most useful document would be AE's will, this should be in the Probate records/registers. As we know he died c.1941 it should not be difficult to trace. This should hopefully hold details of his surviving offspring and where they lived. They also have a list of obituary's and death notices this may have more details of his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Apart from AE's son John Richard (AIF) who died of wounds 29/3/18, the brother George Ernest (who died in Sydney 21/12/93) also served in the AIF. One item in his army records which I noticed was on 10/4/1918 his next of kin was changed from father to mother (Mrs L. Bell, 123 Shiregreen Lane...). Just after this (15/5/1918) AE was in Fulham, taking receipt of John's effects. Perhaps he didn't go back to Sheffield after this? Edited to add - forgot to say I looked for the rest of the older brothers and couldn't find any others in the AIF. It seems likely that John and George were the only ones who emigrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 7 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2009 Apart from AE's son John Richard (AIF) who died of wounds 29/3/18, the brother George Ernest (who died in Sydney 21/12/93) also served in the AIF. One item in his army records which I noticed was on 10/4/1918 his next of kin was changed from father to mother (Mrs L. Bell, 123 Shiregreen Lane...). Just after this (15/5/1918) AE was in Fulham, taking receipt of John's effects. Perhaps he didn't go back to Sheffield after this? Edited to add - forgot to say I looked for the rest of the older brothers and couldn't find any others in the AIF. It seems likely that John and George were the only ones who emigrated. Hi CHM, You and I were of the same mind today. I also, on a hunch, ran all the Bell children through the AIF database and found George's record of service, though I had to wait until I was off the clock to crow about it. . http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=19054 His whole military file can be read and viewed here: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1 To add to the mystery and drama of Albert's trip aboard the California, I made particular note that on April 1st, 1916, as Albert was strolling the decks of the California on his clandestine mission, his son George was attesting to the Autralian Imperial Force! I also noted he changed the next of kin from Albert to his mother, perhaps because he thought his father may not have been too happy? Further in George's records are a few other interesting tidbits, including the fact that on September 29, 1917 while in France with the 13th Battalion, he was wounded by gas and was apparently invalided as a result (see page 9 of his record). Also was the change of address letter, which gives us an approximate time of Albert and Lillian's move from City Road to Shire Green (page 12, form filed October 26, 1917). Did I also note that at the time of his attestation that George was living with John (C/o J R Bell, Goonoo Goonoo Road, Tamworth, New South Wales)? Some other parallel developments: I found a nice Belgian fellow who lives near to La Clytte Cemetery where John is buried, and he offered to take a picture of his headstone for me. I also got an offer from a member of the Sheffields Records forum to take photos for me in Sheffield, which I may very well accept. Re: Albert not going back, his Ancestry record says he returned to and died in Sheffield. Slow progress, but progress nonetheless! -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 I noticed from the record that both brothers who served in the Australian forces were only 5 foot 2 inches tall! Does anyone know what the minimum height was for the Australian army? Is there any way of finding out when they emigrated to Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 7 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2009 I'll look for Australian passenger lists... -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 7 May , 2009 Share Posted 7 May , 2009 I'll look for Australian passenger lists... Here's a starting point, Daniel, on the National Library of Australia site: http://www.nla.gov.au/oz/genelist.html#Immigration Note that the NAA link on that page is no longer valid but it does redirect to: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/m...tion/index.aspx NAA also has a Passenger index for WA ports but date range not be suitable in this case: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PassengerSearch.asp regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Hi Martin, Thanks for the leads...interestingly enough, they led me to this: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1 I think this is Albert's son (and John Richard's twin)! The birth year is off by one year but the month and day match, as does home town, and his wife's name on this record is Marie, and on Ancestry it is Maria. The best part is, it has a photo! Do folks agree? There also may be a record for Albert's grandson: Title BELL ALBERT EDWARD : Service Number - N437419 : Date of birth - 30 Aug 1924 : Place of birth - SHEFFIELD ENGLAND : Place of enlistment - BANKSTOWN NSW : Next of Kin - BELL ALBERT Series number B884 Control symbol N437419 Contents date range 1939 - 1948 Access status Not yet examined Location Canberra Barcode 6198916 Not on line yet. Argh. Feedback is greatly appreciated. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 This is almost certainly the right one, this ties up with the other facts that we have. His occupation is a turner, this ties in with the 1911 census. His height corresponds with that of his twin 5ft 2ins. The age difference can be accounted for by volunteers at 45 or above not being accepted for service, he lied about his age! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Hm. So, it looks like Albert Jr. had a lot of health problems, perhaps due to his long career pre-war as an iron turner...which ended his military service with a 'medically unfit' discharge February 9 1942. And, the record shows he went back to Australia upon discharge on the Queen Mary. Probably lived out the rest of his life there...we'll see if we can confirm that. No luck finding when John and George came to Australia; I ran them through the various Australian databases provided by Martin and found nothing. Maybe someone who has access to outward bound passenger manifests for the UK can find them? I think Find My Past has that? There may be a record for John Richard in Ancestry in the 'Australian Electoral Rolls 1901-1936': John Richard Bell - 1913 - Queensland - Moreton I cannot view it with my version of Ancestry...can someone else have a peek? As an aside, I have requests out with the Sheffield Archives to try and get copies of AEB's will and death notice/certificate/obituary. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 John Richard would not be on the electorial role for 1913, he would have only been 19 years old at the time. Back then you had to be 21 to vote. I noticed that the second Albert Edward has previouse military service but I can't make out what it is. Under other military service it says B.F.E or G? no. 99401, Rank Sig. (Signaler?) R.F.A. I will take a look at the MIC's to see what I may find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Daniel. I have checked the MIC's for Albert Edward, he was not in the UK army so he must have been in the Australian forces. All three brothers names appear on 'NSW free settlers' on Ancestry.uk but I do not have access to any details so it is possibly another dead end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Hi phil, all, I saw that, but couldn't make it out either. I got a response already, re: AEB's will: there isn't one. No record whatsoever. I'm looking into getting AEB's death certificate...I have never seen one from the UK, and hope it has some good nuggets of info, such as where he is buried. I think I found George Ernest Bell's obit via the Ryerson Index (http://www.ryersonindex.org/), but I cannot get it off the newspaper's website (Sydney Morning Herald)....not sure what that is about. Can't even find it! Here's the blurb: newspaper Record for George Ernest BELL Name: BELL, George Ernest Location of Event: late of Bexley, Date: 21 DEC 1993 Subtype of Record: death notice Age: 98 Newspaper: Sydney Morning Herald Notes: pub. 23 DEC 1993. Also: BELL Albert Edward Death notice 12JUL1969 Death 75 late of Bankstown Sydney Morning Herald 14JUL1969 Can't find it via the paper's website, either! Can someone else get the link? If so, please post it here. I am happy to click it and pony up the $$ for it. I also tooled around on Find My Past as a guest, and found one record for a John Bell who deperted the UK for Australia who traveled with a George Bell...here's the reader's digest version: BELL John Birth Year: 1893 Sex: M Year of Departure: 1913 Port of Departure: London Port of Arrival: Australia (Adelaide) Year of birth is off by 1, so maybe it is not him, but only a peek will confirm of disprove... Still outstanding is my request for the death notice/obituary for AEB from Sheffield archive. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Daniel. I have a long weekend this weekend, so can go to the State Library of QLD if it's of any help (just a 5 min bus ride away or a longer, healthier walk). They have SMH on microfilm, so can check out those two obits. What else? I've followed this thread with interest but must confess to not always keeping up with who's who, when, etc. The SLQ has a good range of Australian family history resources. Anyway, let me know. I'm recovering from the flu, so may go either Sunday or Monday. regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 9 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Hi Martin, Anything you can dig up would be great. To briefly summarize, what we know now is that at least three of AEB's sons went to Australia (John Richard, George Ernest and Albert Edward), the first two of which fought in WWI and the third one fought in WWII. We have service records for all 3, but do not know when or how they came to Australia, or much of what became of them later in life, or where Albert Jr or George Ernest are buried. The obits may lead us to AEB's living descendants in Australia, so I see them as being quite important. Feel better and happy hunting! -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deano Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Hi Daniel, i have followed your post's on various Sheffield websites, i have this bit of background for John Richard, the image of the headstone is one of 1,500+ i have of Great War inscriptions from Sheffields burial grounds, i didn't think to check earlier, sorry! Also i have a John R. Bell on two Rolls of Honour here in Sheffield, one is the St Thomas Roll of Honour at Newman Road, Wincobank, 1 minute from Shiregreen Lane. The other is the St Cuthberts Roll of Honour, less than 5 mins from Shiregreen lane. Also there is a large cemetery actually on Shiregreen lane. I have a friend who is one of the 'Friends' of Burngreave cemetery, she visits Sheffield Archives at least once a week and is always willing to do look ups for me, i will see if she will look up AEB's death and place of burial. Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Daniel, Dean, Martin, The twins were born in 1893 not 1894, simple mathmatics from the data on the headstone. This would make the emigration information correct and explain something that was bothering me about Albert juniors military record. If he was 45 at the time he would not have needed to take a year from his age as volunteers were accepted up to the age of 45 but if he was 46 it would explain why he took 2 years off his age. I looked up his ailments on the medical record, the first was a severe ear infection the second for which he was sent home, U.R.T.I. is Upper Respitory Tract Infection, which covers a lot of bases. Could the rest of the family have emmigrated to Australia post war? This would explain why it is difficult to find an obituary or will for Albert senior. We do know that the family settled around Sydney so perhaps there will be something in the newspapers there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 9 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Hi Dean, Phil, all... Dean, the photo is great! My sincere thanks. Phil, it could very well be they all pulled up stakes and moved to Australia, but the data on Ancestry says AEB died in Sheffield. Of course, Ancestry info can be incorrect; I think it worthwhile to explore both avenues in a parallel fashion. I ran AEB through the Ryerson Index (looking for Albert Bell, Death range 1938-1946) and struck out, which may or may not mean anything. Perhaps Martin may have better luck if he visually scans the obits for 1941? Of course, Dean's acquaintance may strike gold too. Let's see! -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 I have just checked the birth records on Ancestry, the twins were registered in the fourth quarter of 1893. If AE senior died in 1941 it is unlikely for there to be an obit. Newsprint was in short supply so newspapers stopped printing such items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deano Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Deans 'acquaintance' is off to the archive's on Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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