Guest Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 I have no date for this one but he was much younger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 This is his wife Lillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Peter, Its great to put a face to the name. Do you have any more details of Reginald's RAF service? in particular with reference to WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 26 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hi all, Finally able to get internet access, this time from a different library. Still without a computer, I'm afraid, which is mind-bendingly annoying to say the least. I am thrilled that AEB's family have joined the discussion and look forward to future conversation. I think it is still safe to say we have not clearly spelled out one way or the other the rather cryptic message on AEB's post card but I have every hope we will figure it out with due dilligence. No luck with the Duncan Haws book yet, but given it is coming from the UK it may be another day or so before it arrives. I want to express my sincere appreciation for everyone' s interest in this mystery...it was far more than I had expected! With any luck I will get my computer back later this week but untill then I will only be able to check in now and again via library computers, should they be available and working (this whole weekend was lost due to my local library's system being taken off line for maintenance). Phil, if there is even a slight chance of visiting La Clytte you should touch base with Pierre Vandervelden, via this site: http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/laclytte.htm He is the one who graciously took the photos of John's stone and as luck would have it, he is a forum pal. Again, apologies to all at being taken out of action at perhaps the most exciting moment in this thread, but such is life, I'm afraid. I will certainly let folks know when I am back, hopefully for the duration. Take care, -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 26 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hi all, FYI, I heard back from another Sheffield native (via the Sheffield Records Online website) who took some more pics of AEB's stone and will share the pics once I have received them. Take care, -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 27 May , 2009 Share Posted 27 May , 2009 Daniel, It looks like Alfred senior was talking about himself when he wrote 'in disguise'. He obviously took a great deal of care in his dress and appearance and he may have considered dressing as a workman worthy of note. It could also be probable that it was intended for members of his family as letters of that time were quite formal even to friends and family, a good example is the correspondance between Winston Churchill and his parents. As the postcard is not stamped or addressed it may well have been sent with an accompanying letter to his wife or family, I doubt it but the letter may still exist. I will not be going to Ypres until 11th November and I will contact Pierre nearer the date, I will know then if I will be able to visit the cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 27 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2009 Hi Phil, all... Back at the library again. Got the pic from the kind soul at Sheffield Records Online and it is quite good. Will post when I can (I should be fully back in circultaion by week's end). I agree that AEB is the likely one in disguise. Without my notes et. al. not sure what to ask of Albert's family at this point, but off the cuff, here goes: do we know if Albert worked with a specific company or companies, and if so, which ones? Do we know what took him to India, and was this during wartime? Do we know what claimed his daughter at so young an age? I also believe it was mentioned that Frederick(?) (the chap whose photo of his headstone we looked at just before I went offline that Dean provided) was a relation....how was he related? As an aside, for those related to Albert will happily send along full-size copies of the headstone photos if you PM me a email address to which to send them. As someone who has done quite a bit of family research over the past 20 years, I would encourage Albert's family to add whatever small facts they can recall (and feel comfortable sharing) to the discussion, as they may open up whole new avenues to be vetted out. Little facts can have a big impact on family research. Looking forward to today's mail with the hope I have my book and always keeping an eye out for other leads coming in. Just got the beep that my session on this machine is about to end, so must depart until tomorrow. Regards to all and see you then. Take care, -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 27 May , 2009 Share Posted 27 May , 2009 Daniel, Frederick would have been a distant relative if at all to AEB's wife Lilian. I traced the records back to Lilian's grandparents and still could not find any connection. I have asked the family about AEB's son Reginalds war service in the RAF, I seem to recall seeing the name Reginald Bell somewhere before, but I am not sure where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dale Posted 27 May , 2009 Share Posted 27 May , 2009 There is a museum in Sheffield that covers the steel industry (Kelham Island) which may have some pointers as to companies involved in shell production for the Admiralty at the time. I also see that there is a catalogue entry in the national Archive relating to the "INTER-ALLIED MUNITIONS BUREAU: Copies of miscellaneous papers: conference on co-ordination of purchases in America (31 Oct. 1916); purchases and requirements of metals, etc." The date is quite interesting in the context of this thread... There are other TNA references that look relevant - eg "Organisation chart of Ministry of Munitions organisation in U.S.A. as at (?) May 1916" and "Munitions supply programme from U.S.A. after 30 June 1916 Covering dates 1916 Feb. 23 - June 29" Looks like a trip to Kew might be productive. Any takers?? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 27 May , 2009 Share Posted 27 May , 2009 Robert, This is very interesting as AEB travelled to the USA in April 1916 with five or six colleagues all on the same ticket! and all described as 'Skilled Labourer'. I will have to visit Kew in the near future and I will likely have a very long list of things to do when I do. Is there a specific reference number for this information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dale Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Phil There are a whole heap of catalogue references which might prove interesting - I wonder whether anyone has done any academic research on our dealings with the US over munitions based on the archives. Some interesting possibilities include : MUN 4/1164 INTER-ALLIED MUNITIONS BUREAU: Copies of miscellaneous papers: conference on co-ordination of purchases in America (31 Oct. 1916); purchases and requirements of metals, etc. MUN 4/1177 INTER-ALLIED MUNITIONS BUREAU: Contracts placed in America 1916-1917. MUN 5/42/263.7/2 Organisation chart of Ministry of Munitions organisation in U.S.A. as at (?) May 1916. MUN 5/359/900/2 Inspection of munitions in U.S.A. from January 1915 to May 1916 MUN 5/137/1010/35 Minutes of proceedings of conference of 30 August 1916 and copy of agreement on establishment of Inter-Allied Bureau of Munitions MUN 5/370/1141/1 Work of Ministry of Munitions in U.S.A. in 1916 MUN 7/184A Munitions supply programme from U.S.A. after 30 June 1916 Of course, much of this is only going to provide relevant background material, but you never know..... As I'm in deepest Norfolk, I don't get to Kew very often, so if you are likely to be visiting soon, I hope something useful turns up, though I fear the papers will be very dry!. Regards Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Thank you Robert, # 3, 4 & 5 look very promising. The others post date April 1916 the period we are concerned with here. The others may throw some light on what their specific duties were and which companies were involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Without my notes et. al. not sure what to ask of Albert's family at this point, but off the cuff, here goes: do we know if Albert worked with a specific company or companies, and if so, which ones? Do we know what took him to India, and was this during wartime? Do we know what claimed his daughter at so young an age? I also believe it was mentioned that Frederick(?) (the chap whose photo of his headstone we looked at just before I went offline that Dean provided) was a relation....how was he related? As an aside, for those related to Albert will happily send along full-size copies of the headstone photos if you PM me a email address to which to send them. I believe he worked for A steel mill, I dont Know which one or if there was more than one, he had a lifelong friend George Leggitt who was a "Little Mester", an outworker in the cutlery trade who had his own workshop. Maries father Derick, grandson of AEB told us he travelled to India and the US but did not know why, he was seven when he moved to Australia and can,t remember to much. I feel there may have deen a falling out between AEB Snr AEB Jnr as when they went to visit the grandparents AEB Snr would go to the club across the Rd We were told that daughter Lillian was dropped and had a blow to the head which caused meningitis from wich she died . We know nothing of Frederick. As for Reg Bell I met him when he came to Australia in 1982 and he loved talking about his war exploits but mainly in WW2 I wrote some of them down at the time but am having trouble finding them. He did say he flew fighter planes such as the Sopworth Camel in WW1 and He told us about one time in WW2 when he flew into enemy territory in the night to hide petrol supplies ready for the advancing army before D Day and had to hide in the bushes from German soldiers who passed within a few feet from him. He was shot down about 9 months before the end of the war and spent about 24 hours in a life raft before being picked up and spent the rest of the war in hospital and never flew again. I think his war records would make interesting reading, have attached a family photo of Albert & Lillian and 9 of his 10 children taken before Lillian died probably about 1910 This is an amazing forum of great interest and I thank everbody for there hard work and imput Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Peter, thank you for that information. On the 1901 census AEB was described as a Traveller (Cutlery and Tools) which would tie in with his friend George Legget who would be involved in the cutlery trade as a "Little Mester". We have established that he made at least two journeys to the USA in the early/mid 1900's and he may have made more. The records show that Reginald was born in 1900 so he must have joined up in late 1917 at the earliest, more likely after 1st April 1918 when the RAF was created. There is evidence that the 'falling out' occured about the time of John's death, George changed his next of kin details to his mother soon after. As you can see there is documentation about the Munitions activity during the GW this may throw some light on who employed AEB, there is the possibility that he was self employed, this is suggested by the trade directories where he has an entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Peter, the photograph of the family can be dated to between April 1911 and August 1911. The baby would be Roland born in March/April 1911 and Lilian jnr. died in early September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 29 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Hi all, Still at the mercy of the library, I'm afraid. The Bell family photo is fantastic and I would say Phil has the date about right. I will try and make contact via the Sheffield Forums to find out what steel mills were in Sheffield in the time period of interest. The information about the falling out and about Lilian's accident were most interesting to read and at the same time, quite sad. I gathered that Albert Sr. would not have been too thrilled to have his son join up while he was at sea, and the listing of Lillian as the emergency contact instead of his father was also telling. No sign of my book yet, and though I was supposed to get my computer back today things are not looking too hopeful, so it may not be until next week before I can be fully back on board again. Phil, best of luck at Kew. I don't know if I will ever get the opportunity to visit but then again, who knows. I have been to England twice since 2000 so perhaps I will go again soon, if the stars align and once my little one is a bit older. Take care, Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 Phil the baby in the Photo is Maurice born 8/12/1908 there was no Roland and no children born 1911. Albert & Lillians children were Albert Edward Born 4/9/1883 Died Aust 12/7/1969 John Richard Born 4/9/1983 Died Belgium 29/3/1918 George Ernest Born 30/10/1895 Died Aust 21/12/1993 Arthur William Born 18/9/1898 Died Sheffield Jan 1964 Reginald Born 8/12/1900 Died South Africa Harold Stewart Born 13/10/1902 Lawrence Archibald Born 27/8/1904 Died Sheffield25/9/1986 Lillian Alberta May Born 19/12/1906 Died Sheffield 4/9/1911 her initials LAMB he refered to her as my little lamb Maurice Collin Born 8/12/1908 Died Keighley North York July 1978 Victor Graham Born 19/3/1910 Ronald Adolpus Born 12/8/1916 11 children in total. This info was gathered by another family member some years ago and she was pretty thorough in her work, I do not have all the provenance for every body but so far it has been pretty accurate. I can identify all the people in the family photo if you wish. going by this the photo would have been taken between Dec 1908 and March 1910 before Victor Graham was born Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 I was going by the 1911 census which took place in early April of that year. In that document it lists a new born baby boy as yet unnamed. From the BMD registers I found the name Roland that seemed to fit. It could possibly have been Victor and his year of birth was 1911 and not 1910, I will have check again on the BMD registers. I am absolutely sure that it is the correct Bell family as all the other names/ages correspond and even Lilians parents were resident with them. The only name missing is Maurice, He was possibly with his paternal grandparents on census night. Unfortunately I have used up all my credits on the 1911 census and cannot check this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 I have just gained access to the 1911 census for the Bell household. It is as follows:- Albert Edward, Head, 40, Cutlery Traveller b. Sheffield Yorks. Lillian, Wife, 39, married 18yrs b. Sheffield. Albert Edward, son, 17, High Speed Drill Turner. John Richard, son, details as above. William Arthur, son, 12. Reginald, son, 10. Harold Stewart, son, 8. Lawence Archibald, son, 6. Lilian Alberta May, daughter, 4. Maurice Colin, son, 2 Infant Boy, son, 0. Beatrice Buxton, servant, 15, Nursemaid. John Blacktin, Boarder, 67, Retired, Late manager saw factory. Elizabeth Blacktin, Boarder, 64, married 46 years. The above two are Lillian Bell's parents. The other name other than Roland that has thrown up is Victor G. this could be the new born baby on the 1911 census but I could only find the name Roland in the BMD records. The address is given as 271 Western Road, Sheffield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 I think this is 271 Western Road, Sheffield. It should be the last house. Seems to have had modern additions. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...,233.93,,0,0.45 Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 Thank you Kath, I notice that the boundary wall looks very similar to the one in the family portrait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deano Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Daniel, re steel works in Sheffield, there is a fantastic book 'SHEFFIELD, Armourer to the British Empire', it covers just about all the steel works and what they did during the first and second world war. ISBN 1903425 - 13 - 1 Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Daniel, Dean. I think that trying to find AEB's employer in Sheffield will be like looking for a needle in a haystack. The fact that he is in trade directories for 1911 and 1924 suggests that he was self employed from 1911 at least. We do know that he travelled to the USA at least twice in the 1900's, if we can find his outward journeys this might have some indication as to who he was employed by. During the war he was employed by the British government, the papers at Kew may also give some indication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Two boys in the Family Photo are wearing mortar boards. Albert & John? Graduates? or at a Public School? Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Two boys in the Family Photo are wearing mortar boards. Albert & John? Graduates? or at a Public School? Kath. Unfortunately it appears that the boys have been dressed up for the photograph, two are in sailor suits and one is in a kilt! It may be possible to find out the schools the children attended, they are probably not far from where they lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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