Steam Traction Driver left his name.

[Tomo.T]

Fowler B6 Road Locomotive 12906 " Foremost " of 1911 Was brought back from France in 2008 where it had lain derelict for many years. The engine had been part of the haulage fleet of Charles Openshaw of Reading and its presence in France was a bit of a mystery. During restoration traces of matt drab green paint were found directly over the original highly decorative livery, and there were signs of extremely serious usage and heavy repair. We began to think the engine may have been commandeered for war service and I wrote to the RLC Museum for conformation. The reply was disappointing, apparently there are no records of commandeered engines or any other vehicle involved in the Great War. This left us unable to prove our theory until the chance discovery of a centre punched inscription on the edge of the drivers oil tray on the footplate. The inscription reads ;

B. W O O L G A R. 5. 4. 4. 4. A. S. C.

After further research a Pte Cecil Byron Woolgar M1 5444 was found in the archives serving with the ASC. He apparently survived the war and lived until 1932 when he died aged 38 in Newhaven. The M1 prefix indicates a Driver Mechanical Transport and there seems little doubt he was the driver of Foremost at least at some point during the war. Unfortunately Pte Woolgar's service record has gone the way of so many others and only his medal roll remains. We are very keen to find which Company he served in within the ASC and also to trace any living relatives. He was born in Washington, Sussex,in 1893, Married in 1915 and had two daughters.

Foremost has been returned to it's original Charles Openshaw livery and is now as good as new following a massive restoration effort, it is the only known survivor of Openshaw's haulage fleet.

Edited 26 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

[centurion]

As the ASC were responsible for delivering heavy artillery to the front the use of traction engines would seem logical. I wonder if there was an equivalent of the subsidy system for traction engines

[Tomo.T]

There are many photographs of Traction Engines at work in the Great War, Fowler B6 Road Locos were a particular favourite with the Army. Those working on the Western front generally had their cabs removed and can thus be distinguished from home based ones. As far as I can tell most of these heavy haulage engines were held back for exceptional loads and were under the direct orders of GHQ rather than working for the Divisional Trains. There was a government subsidy deal in the years before war was declared, whereby new engines could be purchased at low prices on the understanding that they would be released to military service in the event of war. As demand grew engines were simply commandeered. In either case they were supposed to be returned, refurbished or compensated for at the end of the war.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Could the location in France of the derelict engine help narrow down the user ASC company possibilities?

http://www.1914-1918.net/asc.htm

Dave

[IRC Kevin]

Not much for you to go, Tomo, but my Wife's Grandfather drove Fowlers with the ASC (previous thread from some years ago- http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164866&hl=%2Btraction+%2Bengine) I didn't mention it directly in that thread, but her Grandfather told her that the men from his Yorkshire firm (possibly in Long Sutton) had all been put into the army together. The boss of the company was made the OC, the foreman the Sgt, etc and that all served together as one unit. If you could look at the company records for Openshaw's drivers, you may be able to find that the service record for at least one of them has survived, which could give you a start. If you found several which confirmed the above was the same for Openshaws, it's problem solved.

regards,

Kevin

[Tomo.T]

Dave,The engine was recovered from a small village in the province of Gers. It had previously been at Agen near Tolouse. These locations are all in South West France and some distance from the Western front. It had ended its working life driving a threshing box for a French farmer. There was no other history known......... Or admitted to !

[Tomo.T]

Kevin, Thanks for that. The well published picture in your link depicts two B6 Fowlers and is a good example of the conditions they had to contend with. We shall follow up the Openshaw idea but Cecil was 22 and from Sussex. From original pictures we have, Foremosts driver was an older man and they were in Reading.

Edit. Foremosts' driver for Charles Openshaw was named Wilson, as noted on the back of an original photo of the engine.

Tomo

Edited 28 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

[Phil Evans]

Have the Absent Voters Lists survived for the area? If Cecil is on it, there is a chance it may have his Company.

I had a look at the M1/544* medal index cards and other than it looks like they may have been Special Reservists, with three of them going overseas in 1914, ( two to 73 Company and one to 75 Company ASC), there is nothing to help pin Cecil down, as it looks like he didn't go overseas until 1916 onwards.

Phil (former frequenter of Tinker's Park and Redhill Steam Fairs)

[Tomo.T]

Hi Phil, That's an interesting lead. Our man was married in 1915 and moved to Newhaven at an unknown date. This is East Sussex which is a black hole for Absent Voter List hunters apparently. If he was still in the nest at Washington that is West Sussex where hunting is good. We hope to get a marriage cert soon so will know where the happy event took place.

I would be interested to know why you make the special reservist connection. Would he not have an SR prefix in that case ? I realise this is a complete minefield and I'm walking right through it in the dark !

Tomo A&P 8717 Jupiter

[Phil Evans]

It looks like he married Martha Legg within the Horsham Registration District, but moved around a bit post war when the children were born (Sinclair registered in Brighton, 1920 and Dorothy, back in Horsham, 1924).

If you can get hold of a copy, "Army Service Corps 1902-1918", by Michael Young is what you need. It has recently been republished and is probably available through larger libraries

.In my original copy, p246 has the War Establishment (Nov 1916) of an Auxilliary (Steam) Company. Steam power was introduced into the ASC right from the outset of the Mechanical Transport branch in 1903.

Phil

[jay dubaya]

IIRR the 71st to 79th Coys ASC were nos. 1, 2, and 3 Heavy Repair Shops based in Paris, Rouen and St. Omer. Could it have got to Toulouse via Marseille?

Jon

[Tomo.T]

Phil, Thanks, I will look out for the book, still mystified by the SR connection though. Will try for Horsham absent voters.

Jay, I presume at the end of hostilities vehicles were gathered up, inspected and graded for condition. Those that were considered beyond economical repair were likely shunted off to disposal parks and sold at auction. When found Foremost had no top gear and showed other signs of having had a very hard life. Any guess at its movements or where it came from must be complete conjecture. There is also the possibility that it was broken, abandoned and recovered by some enterprising Frenchman...... Spoils de guerre ?

Tomo

[centurion]

It looks like he married Martha Legg within the Horsham Registration District, but moved around a bit post war when the children were born (Sinclair registered in Brighton, 1920 and Dorothy, back in Horsham, 1924).

If you can get hold of a copy, "Army Service Corps 1902-1918", by Michael Young is what you need. It has recently been republished and is probably available through larger libraries

.In my original copy, p246 has the War Establishment (Nov 1916) of an Auxilliary (Steam) Company. Steam power was introduced into the ASC right from the outset of the Mechanical Transport branch in 1903.

Phil

In this form

[Tomo.T]

Traction engines were used in the Boer War. They were nothing new by 1914,

[centurion]

Traction engines were used in the Boer War. They were nothing new by 1914,

Indeed Britain's first armoured vehicle was a steam traction engine used in the South African war and the British army had experimented with traction engines long before then (see photo below) but the ASC's use of steam is post South African War

[Tomo.T]

Ordered book, two requests posted for absent voters. Waiting for results. Cecil has 9 living descendants from his daughter Catherine Sinclair but details are withheld. Anyone know a Neary from the Horsham area ?

Centurion, Yes, Steam Traction engines were under the auspices of the Royal Engineers until WW1 . Steam waggons were a different animal.

Edit. After further research I find the above to be incorrect. ASC took over all steam transport from the RE from 1903.

Tomo

[Phil Evans]

Tomo,

It looks like you have just beaten me to it - this link?

It is unfortunate that, unlike 90% of the other medal index cards for similar numbers that I have gone through, he didn't qualify for the 1914 Star. The ASC is extremely good at putting the first overseas unit served in.

What makes me think that he was either Special Reserve, or Special Enlistment, is the rapidity with which some of the others were sent overseas.

Phil

PS Jupiter looks a fine beast

Edited 20 September , 2014 by Phil Evans

[Tomo.T]

Phil, yes that's the one, how to proceed ?

I think you've already mentioned the fact that our Cecil didn't go to France before 1916, therefore he wouldn't qualify for the 1914 Star, he wasn't there.

Now, the Army were keen to recruit existing steam drivers who would not need further instruction. Just fit them up with a khaki suit, a few weeks basic training so they knew who to shoot or salute, and so off to France.

In the case of someone who needed training as a steam driver, perhaps at Grove Park or similar depot, the process would take longer. What do you think ? A clue here might be the age of the high speed entrants ?

Jupiter is lovely providing you are not in any hurry ! You should see Foremost !

Tomo

Edited 28 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

[Tomo.T]

Foremost restored to her pre war glory

[Tomo.T]

Foremost as found.

[Phil Evans]

A very nice job Tomo.

I don't know if you noticed, but go to the home page of the Granger and Musgrave site and there is a contact button. The site was last updated in April 2014, so looks like someone is actively looking after it.

I have a fair bit on Grove Park, as its just down the road from me, but I have never come across a steam connection - omnibus companies, motor ambulance convoys, light cars & vans generally. Some of the other men I looked at with similar numbers appear to have passed through Grove Park, but through motorised companies. The closest I have seen is of Holts in Deptford.

The ASC was forming steam companies at various times. May 1915, the 7th, 8th & 9th Auxiliary (Steam) Companies were formed. Mid-1917, the 61st, 67th, 69th, 71st and 76th were formed, some of them specifically for road construction and repairs.

The Home Mechanical Transport Depot history is one of the most boring pieces of literature you are likely to read, but I thought this may be of interest:

Phil

[Tomo.T]

Hi Phil, Message sent to the Musgraves and no I hadn't spotted the contact link. Thanks. I agree about Grove Park it was for Motorised Transport. There must have been a dedicated steam transport depot too. I found a list of Depots all around London but no mention of their usage. Been hoping to find a record of a trainee Steam Driver but no luck so far. I take your point about the special reserve, apparently you could volunteer for it and your enlistment would be delayed until they really needed you ? The sort of thing you might do if you wanted to get married first ? There was a record of a lorry driver who joined up, was assessed at Grove park, declared to be proficient and found himself in France in three weeks !

The vehicle No's are stunning although there is no specific mention of Steam Traction Engines. I read somewhere there were 75 Big Lion(B6) Fowlers employed in France. Something else I should mention is that Foremost was fitted with a non standard, extra heavy duty drawbar either as a repair or in order to tackle very heavy loads. Maybe large artillery pieces ? This is a much bigger job than I imagined but most interesting (and frustrating !)

Tomo

[Phil Evans]

Tomo,

Not for the first time, I was wrong. There was a steam section at Grove Park. I thought I would try the Imperial War Museum collection, so typed Traction in the search and amongst other things, (including legs in traction), I found an interview with Ralph Miller. The relevant part starts 26 minutes into Reel 6, but although I've only got through Reel 7 so far, going by the synopsis, his engine driving experiences go on into Reel 9.

I don't know how, or if, the steam traction engine figures are included in those statistics. I think that I also read somewhere that they were phased out in favour of the caterpillars for hauling heavy artillery. Of course it may just be that with the increased number of artillery pieces, the supply of caterpillars was better able to keep up.

Phil

[Tomo.T]

Phil, Nice to hear Ralph Miller. He mentions that Grove park was also a dispersal centre where wrecked vehicles were cannibalised for usable parts before being towed off for scrap. That makes Foremost an unusual survivor and also brings the manner of its "decommission" in France into sharper focus ! Something else I noted was that all entrants to Grove Park were trained as mechanics and then encouraged to become drivers thus involving further training. Its a pity the interviewer didn't know more about steam engines Ralph had a hard time explaining everything.

One of the big disadvantages of steam vehicles in a war situation is that they give away their position by producing smoke, thus attracting enemy shell fire. Also they require about 2 hours to attain full steam pressure from lighting up. Internal combustion engines were feeble things at the start of the war and not up to the task of heavy haulage which was always left to the steam engines. Rapid development produced better performance and caterpillar tracks improved traction. This led to the invention of the haulage tractor and the demise of steam as a prime mover on the roads.


Tomo

Edited 28 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

[Tomo.T]

Just to update, I have received a reply from Ian Pennicot of W. Sussex Record Office. L/Cpl Woolgar does appear on the Horsham and Worthing absent voters list of 1918. He is listed as 5444 L/Cpl , ASC , MT. Sadly no Company No. Another little door has closed. At least we know he was promoted ! It seems it's all down to the family now.

On the plus side, a very large book has arrived by Col. Michael Young, so I should be ok for bedtime reading for quite a while.

Tomo