Arras, Aerial Views

[JimSmithson]

Here is the trench map. The trench with a lot of attention from the British is clearly Telegraph Lane.

Got to do some proper work now!!

Jim

[fritz]

Indeed the same view as post 96 sent from Andy.

[JimSmithson]

That must have been another in the series they took as they flew over as it has a different number. A lower number so it must have been taken just before the one above.

Jim

[fritz]

That must have been another in the series they took as they flew over as it has a different number. A lower number so it must have been taken just before the one above.

Jim, you are right. It´s post 13 from Andy (Stiletto)!

We wish you a good weekend without snow and flood water.

Fritz

[lmurphy]

Andy,

I am new to this site and don't know how to contact you. My interest is with a soldier named Stanley Charles Garrard.

His wife Enid Myra was my grand aunt. I do have quite a bit of info on her but can't access your previous forum notes

Lorraine

[west coast]

lorriane,

hi there. if you post your question in the sub forum "soldiers" you should get lots of help.

mike.

[egbert]

Excellent thread!Great aerial-trenchmap collages

[Roger H]

Excellent thread!Great aerial-trenchmap collages

I echo that - great stuff!

Roger

[JimSmithson]

Andy,

I am new to this site and don't know how to contact you. My interest is with a soldier named Stanley Charles Garrard.

His wife Enid Myra was my grand aunt. I do have quite a bit of info on her but can't access your previous forum notes

Lorraine

Lorraine

Just to add to Mike's post I think that Andy is too busy at the moment to help as he used to do. Is your man from the Rifle Brigade which is Andy's speciality? Did he fight or even die at Arras, in which case I may have some info. As Mike said, best to post again on the other sub-forum giving some more detail if you have it on Stanley such as his unit, number if you have it, date or place of birth etc.

Also, a very warm welcome to the Forum. I am sure there will be lots of folk who will help you out. You can't message anyone until you have posted 10 or more times - a rule many new members don't realise.

Jim

[JimSmithson]

One last one that has not been on this thread, may have been on another. I really like this one as Beaurains is a very familiar spot to me and this shot has lovely clarity. It is from January 1917 and I have rotated the accompanying map to approximately the right direction. At this point remember the Germans occupied the trenches you see but withdrew from them in March, British trenches lower part of the photo.

Jim

[stiletto_33853]

Lorraine,

Someone asked me to pop in and have a little look at this for you. If you would care to contact one of the moderators I am sure that they will give you my e-mail address for you to contact me directly. Is the man you refer to Stanley Charles Garrard, 16th London Regiment #2554 then commissioned into the Rifle Brigade as a 2nd Lieut.

As Jim says I am quite busy at present with some research which is proving very exciting, hence unable to spend the time on here that I used to, but by all means get in touch and I will see what I can do to help you.

Andy

Lorraine, having just looked this gentleman up, I would be very pleased to talk to you as I have a lot on this officer who was in the 8th Rifle Brigade, something of a passion with me. He married on 7/12/07 Enid Myra Merlyn Garrard and there is a request from a Captain R.C. Gallien of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force for a certificate of death and proof of nationality so that he could marry Enid Myra.

[stiletto_33853]

Just re-visiting this thread as it provided some excellent joint collaboration and results, wanting to go over a few things in my mind with regard the 14th & 56th Division in the area. Quite forgot just what a great thread this turned out to be.

Jim, that raid on Triangle Wood could well be on the cards in the late spring/early summer time now my time has been freed up a little, been a manic year to put it mildy. Will drop you a line to see about hooking up again, hopefully with Fritz too.

Andy

[JimSmithson]

Nice to see you getting excited Andy!

Last time in the area I walked the lanes/roads through Triangle Wood. It is very strange terrain with quarries etc., some of which is evident from trench maps as existing in 1917. It was obviously an area that could be heavily used for dug outs etc., even if much visible now is possibly modern. You have probably not seen the new housing estate and commercial area which is being built on 14th Division start lines from April 1917.

Looking forward to a possible tramp around the area in 2011.

Jim

[fritz]

Hello Andy, hello Jim,

ever ready for new explorations in this area!!

Fritz

[DeMorgan]

Hello Jim,

I have a very similar aerial photo to yours showing Beaurains, and it has many of the same named locations, but it from a slightly different angle. You wrote..

One last one that has not been on this thread, may have been on another. I really like this one as Beaurains is a very familiar spot to me and this shot has lovely clarity. It is from January 1917 and I have rotated the accompanying map to approximately the right direction. At this point remember the Germans occupied the trenches you see but withdrew from them in March, British trenches lower part of the photo.

Jim

By cuddalore at 2010-12-12

The photo comes from a roughly A4 sized photo and map printed onto a single sheet. The map is below.

By cuddalore at 2010-12-12

It comes from a collection of maps and photographs associated with the Queens Westminster Rifles collected by John Baber, my great uncle.

The QWR history by Henriques says that on the 14th March 1917 that they were called away from working parties in the rear to support an advance by the 2nd London's on the village of Beaurains.

Both battalions formed part of the 56th Division that is mentioned several times in this thread.

At 8.30am on the morning of the 18th of March the 2nd London's who had been preparing to take part in a formal attack a few days later discovered that the German's had left the trenches as part of their redeployment into the Hindenburg Line.

The photograph puzzles me in one respect. Up the left hand side it says something like 11M213 15.9.16 1000 fr 20"

Does this marking refer to the date it was taken on, or could it be a reference to the basic map that was printed with it? That map shows a much less complex set of trenches than occur in the photo.

Would the battalion in March 1917 have been issued with photos taken a year earlier?

The QWR had been stationed many miles away in September 1916 at Combles, so I don't think it was issued to the QWR in support of events they had taken part in during 1916.

I know that some of the maps and photos I have were collected by John Baber as he took part in these events as they occurred, however I am unsure if the others were issued to him, or whether he collected them after the war as he and Henriques collected material for the book.

Although John Baber fought with the battalion until March 1916 and from October to November 1918, for most of the war he was attached to 169 Machine Gun Company. This company often fired in support to the QWR, but he was frequently in the line for longer periods than the QWR. He records being in the line for 17 days at a time when the battalion was normally only in for 4 to 8 days.

I think his guns were being fired in support of other battalions in the Brigade in these extended periods in the line.

I cannot establish if he was present at the advance into Beaurains and the actions at Neuville Vitasse on the 9th of April, and Wancourt on the 14th, which the QWR history lists as being ones the QWR fought in.

I know that he was in France because I have a long list he put together. In it he says that from the 25th March 1917 until 25th March 1917 when he returned to the MGC school at Grantham, he was CO of the 12th Machine Gun Company.

Does anybody happen to know where the 12th Machine Gun Company was during this period?

Were these photo and map issued to him so that he could take part in support of the advance to Beaurains?

It appears as if this advance had been prepared for many months in the expectation of a fierce action, but because of the retreat of the Germans to the Hindenburg Line if was almost unopposed and was far less difficult than had been expected.

The QWR history says that almost all of the German dugouts shown on the photo in the village had been destroyed or collapsed by the Germans before the QWR got to them. The village was heavily booby trapped. Lieutenant Harrow the battalion signals officer saved many lives by finding several booby trap command wires.

The batalion discovered that the German Company headquarters labelled "Coy HQ" on the photo was undamaged and moved into it. It was apparently an elaborate structure with two storeys. The lower one being 15 feet below the upper one which was 15 feet below the surface. It had numerous rooms and was fitted with built in stoves. Fuses and demolition charges had been left, but had not been lit. A meal was found on the table.

Nick Balmer.

[JimSmithson]

Nick

Some super stuff, thank you for sharing.

The writing on the side is definitely about the photo - the latter bit the easiest as it is taken at 1000 ft (not fr) with a 20" lens. The first part is usually the map reference which at M2 would make sense as it seems to be taken from that square on the trench map (51 SW1 on 10000 maps - Neuville Vittasse), the 1 and 3 afterwards I'm not so sure. The date will be the date the photograph was taken.

I assume you mean he was with 12 MG Coy from 25 March 1917 to 25 March 1918. That means he moved across to 4th Division. He will have fought with that Coy in the 9th April battles and again in May. I have not got to the 4th Division units at Kew yet that are not on-line (such as MG Coys) so I can't tell you much about that yet. They are down for my next visit. He will have been a little further north as 4th Division passed through 9th Division later on the 9th April just north of the Scarpe.

He will then have been at Passchendaele and then back to Arras in 1918. You need a 4th division expert to give you more detail.

You are correct when you talk of preparation for a major assault in Beaurains. The planning for the Spring offensive was done before the Germans retreated and so an assualt on the lines in the village was planned. These were quickly changed when the Germans retreated. In this sector it was not far, Preussen Redoubt, on the map was not part of the new german lines but the north end of it (left in the photo) did join that new front system.

On the map in post 162 you will see the saps X4, X5 and X6 that can be seen on the photo.

I would love to see any other material you have form the April campaign as I am deep in research of that period.

Jim

[DeMorgan]

Hello Jim,

Thank you very much for your post. I will have another look through the bits I have as I think I probably have more on Arras.

Over the past decades the maps and photos in my collection have all been shuffled around, and I am engaged in a "research project" trying to link pictures to maps, and diaries and letters to events.

I re-read his diaries and letters again last night. They are quite vivid, but are of course obtuse about location so that the censor would let them though. He was actually telling his parents were he was, because he would do it in terms of "I am where Pat was last year" or "I can hear the big push up north." Pat being Patterson Barton who was his cousin in the Royal Army attached to the Indian Army.

Of course, I am not as familiar with events as his parents were. They lived in Kensington in West London and welcomed many of his brother officers to visit them for lunch or dinner on leaves. His letters frequently discuss how Major X or Y would be visiting them while they were on leave, and would take them bits and pieces or tell them where he was.

I have to learn to break the "code."

I have two main interests, the QWR and its parent 56th Division, and John Baber's own career, to make sense of the letters etc. that I have. As is becoming apparent, they don't always coincide, so it looks as if I will have to extend my research to the 46th Division.

This forum is proving to be an absolutely fantastic resource for me, as I find other peoples maps, research and even the recent photos a tremendous resource, when I try to locate the background to these documents. I first tried 10 years ago, and soon grew discouraged by the task as I couldn't make much progress.

I have been slowly working forward from 1914, but was encouraged (diverted from my purpose) by Peter Barton and Jeremy Bannings really excellent book on Arras, which I bought recently to jump forward out of sequence to 1917. So I am not as well informed about these events as I am on the QWR in 1914 and 1915.

The only other map I know that I have at present linked to this area besides the 1/100,000 scale maps, are two 1/20,000 scale maps. One is Sheet 51b SW but the trenches are revised up to the 27th July 1918, so it post dates the Spring 1917 offensive. The other is 51B NW revised to show the situation on 21st March 1918. So they must relate to later events. They are a big help in understanding locations from 1917, and I used then as I read through Barton & Banning's book.

The trenches are very different in location, and trenches like the Preussen Redoubt have totally gone, and don't even appear to be incorporated into later trenches. I suppose the shelling was so awful they had been obliterated.

This takes me back to the fact that my aerial photo appears to be dated 15-9-16. Whereas yours is much later. However the handwriting and methodology is very similar. I wonder if it was the same man who wrote it. I am old enough to have worked in a drawing office before CAD. Draughtsmen's hand writing is very constant. I think it is the same man.

It might be that the photo I have relates to an event in September to say December 1916. I will have to go and read up on that period. But I am more inclined to think it was part of a very long and deliberate preparation for the Spring Arras Offensive.

If that hypothesis is correct, it suggests that the front had changed only a little in detail, if it were felt possible to issue it to the QWR in support of an attack in February / March 1917.

You mention the points marked X6 X5 and X4 on my photo. Are these German?

Beaurains was in German hands until the expected retreat to the Hindenburg Line. The photos appear to show deep trenches going back from X6 and X5 towards the main German System.

I had been trying to work out it they had been British dug "Russian Saps." But there does not appear to be any trenches coming back to the British system which is called H27 & H27.

Regards

Nick Balmer

[JimSmithson]

Hi Nick

The X positions are German saps. They were used as outposts to warn of raids and generally monitor the other lines if there was a fair distance between the 2 opposing trenches. Not always occupied but could be. You will see them all over the front on both sides.

There is a good description of a raid by the KOYLI in Beaurains where they drop into the saps as part of the attack.

It is not easy using trench maps for the April 1917 attacks as the ones used are overprints march 1917 and the drawn lines are pre-retreat. The trenches the British attacked from around Beaurains are not even marked in most cases. You see them drawn on maps from unit diaries. I will dig one or two out and post them so that you can see what I mean.

Jim

[Havrincourt]

Hello chaps

I have been reading up again on the Arras battles over the last few weeks. I have also spent a few days getting blurry eyed over looking at trench maps

Anyhow found a comparison for the nice view from Fritz {post 131}

Andy

[Havrincourt]

....and found a view of the artillery at Neuville Vittasse from the Twenty years after magazine

[Roger H]

More interesting stuff Andy. A trip to Specsavers for you?

Roger

[Havrincourt]

...old age so the other half tells me!

[JimSmithson]

Hello Andy! Nice to see you back in the best area again.

See post 139 - I already had that one pinned!! Your image of the artillery is a superb one though - not seen it in all the stuff I have poured over. I think they are in what is left of the sugar factory with the pile of rubble in the background being the church (the thing stuck up in the middle of the rubble I have seen on another photo.)

The guns would now be aimed at 3 new wind generators!

Jim

[BridieP]

51b M5a

26/1/17

Many thanks for the pictures of Arras. My grandfather, L/cpl 134261 James Peak of the Loyal North Lancashire Regt, was klled there on 21/09/1915.

[JimSmithson]

Hi

I'm not sure your Grandfather died in Arras. In September 1915 his unit was further south in 37th Division, VII Corps of 3rd Army. The French 10th Army were around Arras and attacked in September. 3rd Army were lending artillery support and were to support should the French break through, which they didn't. Do you have details of your Grandfather's death? I would be interested if it was around Arras as it is an area of particular interest to me. He is buried in a Communal Cemetery extension which was used by Field ambulances so he must have been wounded, moved to the place and died there.

Jim