John_Hartley Posted 7 February , 2008 Share Posted 7 February , 2008 I can cite forum members who can verify that and confirm that the text was despatched to relatives with the photos. More than happy to again confirm not only my appreciation for the photos and text that you provided but that of the man's descendents. It was the contextual photos and the narrative that touched the family as much (if not more so ) than the headstone photo. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 8 February , 2008 Share Posted 8 February , 2008 Chris, can't explain why. I can't even have my grandfather's headstone photo as his name is on the Cape Helles memorial of those with no known graves. But I know how moved & grateful I was when Martin Wills sent me photos of his name & those of his comrades and the memorial & its setting. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 I am interested in the views about this from both the photographers and their "clients". I take photographs of headstones for my website/database because it was said that their names would live on forever more and that was done by carving their names in stone. Also, there's a difference between telling your own grandchild that their great, great grandfather died in the WW1 and here his a photograph of his headstone with his name, the date he died and the regiment he served with, than your great, great grandfather died in WW1 and his headstone would have looked like this. Well thats my opinion anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 Burlington, Just to respond to your enquiry as to whether there are any cemeteries in the Phillipines, and also to add another angle to the debate about all headstones being similar, there's a RN 1920 burial in the American Military Cemetery, Manila - with a US style grave marker (cross)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 Is there any particular reason why graves dating from wars prior to the Great War but marked by CWGC headstones are not being recorded? Or are they? Eg the Crimean. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 Gwyn There are no such graves. CWGC is only responsible for graves from the two world wars and no others. They do care for some other graves under contract from MoD (including a few pre 1914) but they are classed as Non-World War Graves and do not have CWGC headstones. The more recent ones have the MoD style stones and the older ones various designs. Only Commonwealth War Graves from the two world wars have CWGC headstones (excluding unofficial copies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 Terry, I am hesitant to contradict you, but there is a grave marked by a War Graves Commission headstone in Knutsford Parish Church graveyard. It is Trumpet Major William Smith, who sounded the charge at Balaclava (I know whether there was a charge sounded or not is disputed now). He was awarded the headstone in 1991 after some campaigning that an old hero was unrecognised and had no marked grave. I have its photo and have seen it many times. It's a modern-style stone. He died a sad and undignified death of laudanum overdose and alcoholism in 1879. I found a lot about him when researching the Cheshire Yeomanry for the Drill Halls project, as he worked at the Volunteers HQ in Manchester Road, Knutsford, for some years after his military service. I thought that if there are others, the project might have recorded them but I could find nothing on the website. Hence the question. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John W Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 organised as a Community Interest Company - a not-for-profit organisation where any profit has to be ploughed back into the operation and none is dispersed to any other party. Sorry to be pedantic, but that dosn't have to be how a CIC operates. CICs are an odd hybrid structure, that sits between a normal Charity / Company limited by guarantee and a standard for profit company. THe real thing with a CIC is the operation of an Asset lock, restricting what happens to the assets of the company. CIC are the vehicle of social enterprise, but they are allowed share holders and to pay dividends ( if I remember correctly) It all depends on some of the underlying structure. JOhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhound Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 He was awarded a CWCG headstone in 1991 after some campaigning that an old hero was unrecognised and had no marked grave. I have its photo and have seen it many times. It's a modern-style stone....... .....he worked at the Volunteers HQ in Manchester Road, Knutsford, for some years after his military service. As Terry has explained, it can’t be a CWGC stone as these are solely for WWI and WWII service people. So there is no such thing in this context as a “modern style”. There have been quite a few threads touching on this topic – try a search for “non-world war graves”. My understanding from the WGPP site is that it only includes serving military personnel, and from what you say this man seems to have died as a civilian, so presumably would not qualify for inclusion in the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 Unless you have seen it, please don't tell me it is no such thing. This is a CWGC headstone. I went down there this evening to check. It is a modern stone, exactly like the other CWGC headstones, with the crest (I think it's the Hussars but I may be wrong), the man's name, the units, dates and a text. It was granted by the CWGC in 1991, I believe. It's too dark to go and take a currently dated photograph, unfortunately, and I have something on this evening, but I will do so when the light is right. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhound Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 Unless you have seen it, please don't tell me it is no such thing. This is a CWGC headstone. I went down there this evening to check. It is a modern stone, exactly like the other CWGC headstones, with the crest (I think it's the Hussars but I may be wrong), the man's name, the units, dates and a text. It was granted by the CWGC in 1991, I believe. It's too dark to go and take a currently dated photograph, unfortunately, and I have something on this evening, but I will do so when the light is right. Gwyn If you say it's exactly like a CWGC stone, I'm sure it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 It was granted by the CWGC in 1991, I believe. I think you're right about the year, Gwyn. There's an internet reference quoting local Knutsford historian, Joan Leach, as saying that the Commission provided the stone in 1991 after a campaign organised by the 11th Hussars (I assume its regimental association) and military history enthusiasts. I agree that it can't be a "war grave" as defined by the Commision's charter and assume that it is probably one of the graves mentioned by Terry as being maintained on behalf of the MoD. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 9 February , 2008 Share Posted 9 February , 2008 The stone seen by Gwyn may look like a CWGC stone but that does not mean to say that it is. I am in Ypres at the moment and so cannot give chapter and verse but the stone that Gwyn mentions is probably a Non-World War Grave - either in CWGC Care or not. Often stones are described as CWGC stones when they are not. The appearance of a stone is no guarantee of its origins. CWGC does not supply stones except for official war graves or some Non-World War Graves in its care in its own cemeteries (which have a very specific pattern unlike MoD Non-World War stones). Other stones which look like CWGC stones or are reported erroneously as CWGC stones are numerous. The design of a specific stone cannot be taken as a sign of the supplier. It is far more complicated than that. There are many headstones which look like CWGC headstone but which are not. I cant comment more on Gwyns stone without seeing a pic or having access to my files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 10 February , 2008 Share Posted 10 February , 2008 These were taken today. Headstone, unfortunately backlit. The text at the bottom reads: "Honour the Light Brigade" One of the Noble 600 Born 1822 Died 16.11.1879 Location within churchyard: I can only reiterate that this stone was provided by the War Graves Commission in 1991. Trumpet Major Smith's fame and celebrity is not new; his house is marked with a plaque dating back to the Festival of Britain, 1951 and his story has come up in a lot of coverage based on the recent serialisation of Cranford (which is Knutsford). John mentioned Joan Leach; she is extremely rigorous and a well-reputed local expert. Please note that my original post asked about 'graves dating from wars prior to the Great War but marked by CWGC headstones'. I did not say this is a Commonwealth War Grave. There is a distinction. Simply, I thought that if there were others, they might have been recorded, as some of these men have descendants still living and tracing their military history. I don't propose to say any more, because there seems no point. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhound Posted 10 February , 2008 Share Posted 10 February , 2008 We may have wandered a bit off-topic here, but I hope Terry will be able to clarify this, as I'm always interested in things like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkes Lamb Posted 11 February , 2008 Share Posted 11 February , 2008 My understanding from the WGPP site is that it only includes serving military personnel, and from what you say this man seems to have died as a civilian, so presumably would not qualify for inclusion in the project. I have photographed graves with any military connection (e.g. rank,"killed in action", "ex regiment" etc) and sent them to the original project. They have been received gladly as are any snippets of general information on the service history of the casualty. I understnd the new project will do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 February , 2008 Share Posted 11 February , 2008 To clear up the issue regarding the headstone for William Smith at Knutsford, I queried it with CWGC today. They confirm that it is not a CWGC headstone. They did not fund it, supply it nor do they maintain it. They suggest that it was either supplied by relatives, a regimental organisation or similar. It could also have been supplied by MoD. They also say that it looks as if it is one of a number of 'fake' (their term) CWGC headstones which are known around the area which were probably produced locally. To reiterate, a CWGC headstone will only appear above an official Commonwealth War Grave though they will also supply a differently styled headstone for Non-World War Graves in CWGC Care and Foreign Nationals in CWGC Care. There are many 'look-alike' stones provided by other organisations and private individuals but they are not CWGC stones. However, Gwyn's original query was really why is there a start date of 1914 for the WGPP. I do not know why such a start point was chosen unless it stems from the original intention of only photographing official war graves which are only 1914-21 and 1939-47. Personally, I would have gone back to 1900 (or rather 1899) to include the South African War - but then, why not go back further! Kirkes is right in saying that the WGPP does not cover 'old soldiers' though they may keep any pics supplied on file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMcNay Posted 11 February , 2008 Share Posted 11 February , 2008 The Scottish War Graves Project covers military graves of all periods. I have photographed, or know of, graves of veterans of the Crimea, Boer War, and even the Battle of Waterloo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted 13 February , 2008 Share Posted 13 February , 2008 The Wargraves Project [which has a new name] is still going, this one "The War Graves Photographic Project" is run by a person who was involved in the Wargraves Project. I could not believe my eyes when I did a search and found my images on this site. I gave no permission for him to use them, they are still for use on the other project. If any person is wanting any images for Gloucestershire, North Staffordshire [and some for Derbyshire and Cheshire] which I should have, please let me know and I see if I can help you out, if not I will go and find it [that is the location is known]. and I will email them. and all the inscription noted if I am unable to photograph it. Maybe we could start our own databank, the images do not have to be online I am also a one man band taking photographs of War Memorials in Gloucestershire & North Staffordshire and any others that I may come across, this is my hobby and I love it, it gets me out and about, especially when I get my free bus pass this year, which will be of no use to me when I am in the sticks of Gloucestershire Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redescort Posted 13 February , 2008 Share Posted 13 February , 2008 Don't we already have a thread on pictures of war graves memorials here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...0391&st=100 I have already said in this thread that I will provide any from my local area free to any pals on the forum that want them. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 13 February , 2008 Share Posted 13 February , 2008 The Wargraves Project [which has a new name] is still going, this one "The War Graves Photographic Project" is run by a person who was involved in the Wargraves Project. I could not believe my eyes when I did a search and found my images on this site. I gave no permission for him to use them, they are still for use on the other project. Alf If you take a picture of something, do you automatically own the copyright? Then if you put it on a website (of your own) does that make any difference? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 13 February , 2008 Share Posted 13 February , 2008 Yes. You will own the copyright of any picture you take with a camera - or draw with a pencil, paint with a brush etc (unless you are doing it as part of paid employment). It makes no difference if you post it anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted 15 February , 2008 Share Posted 15 February , 2008 Alf, You may now be a one-man-band, but you were not always . I only left Gloucestershire in September, and have posted a couple of memorials - I do like Stanway. My photos are available to anyone who wants - if they intend to use them for commercial purposes an acknowledgement would be nice. Roxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted 15 February , 2008 Share Posted 15 February , 2008 A little off topic I know, but further to Terry’s comments regarding ‘Look-alike’ gravestones… East Finchley Cemetery (North London) contains a gravestone commemorating Sergeant George Walters of the 49th Regiment, recipient of the Victoria Cross during the Crimea War. Although this stone bears close resemblance to a CWGC stone it was in fact commissioned in the late 1990’s by Sergeant Walters’s regiment, and apparently has no connection with the CWGC whatsoever. Unfortunately I don’t have a photo of the grave, but if anyone is interested I am more than happy to take one next time I’m in the cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkes Lamb Posted 17 February , 2008 Share Posted 17 February , 2008 I would be flattered if my images were to appear on both sites! I dont honestly feel that the organiser of the new project would have done it with any malice (he, like the organiser of the original site, seems to be a very genuine and nice chap) and he was perhaps doing it in the interests of all concerned, rather than for himself-the project must after all cost him a fortune ! I think he got as frustrated as many of us with the delays in uploading images on the previous site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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