Launch of ' The War Graves Photographic Project' website

[swellal]

The purpose of The War Graves Photographic Project is to provide a permanent online archive of ALL British service men and women

My understanding must be in error then. I am under the impression that the project is to cover all Commonwealth War Dead. That includes Canada, Australia, India, New Zealand, South Africa, as well as the United Kingdom.

So it includes pretty much everyone except the Germans and the Americans.

Don't get the wrong idea, I think the project is very commendable and ambitious. I applaud their efforts and from running a website that only has 1700 or so photos, I can visualize the massive effort that will be involved.

I wish them well.

I just want the 21st Battalion photos available to all, free of charge, and without watermarks.

[Terry Denham]

Al

You are correct.

The WGPP will cover all Commonwealth War Graves and Foreign National War Graves in CWGC Care (including any Germans and Americans - and many others).

It will also cover graves of all British service personnel who died outside the official war grave dates from the end of WW1 to date.

[burlington]

Terry & Al

Sorry, of course, you are quite right.

So far as I know, there are 1m images already available and not the 1700 that Al mentioned. The issue really is getting them all on to the database.

Martin

[Black Watch]

As for the watermarking, would you really want all your hard work paraded around the world for a fee?

Martin

But surely that is what you are doing?

[Dragon]

...from running a website that only has 1700 or so photos, I can visualize the massive effort that will be involved.

So far as I know, there are 1m images already available and not the 1700 that Al mentioned.

Al means that he is running a website which has 1700 images.

Gwyn

[burlington]

Al means that he is running a website which has 1700 images.

Gwyn

Oops. Sorry Al. Slight problem with speedreading.

[swellal]

As for the watermarking, would you really want all your hard work paraded around the world for a fee?

But surely that is what you are doing?

You can check my website (addy below) and there is nary a watermark to be found, other than the stains on some of the orginal photos.

Feel free to capture any photo you wish. A credit would be nice though. Be prepared to stay a while if you intend to view the entire site. As mentioned approx 1,700 photos, and about 200 pages in total. Includes a personal diary, as well as biographical information on over 100 solders, and growing as we speak.

Is this not what us Great War addicts do?

[Roxy]

Al,

I understand your view that the photos of those who laid down their lives for their countries ought to be available to their relatives (regardless of nationality); however, personally, I am content to provide any website - provided that I don't think that they are taking the mickey with the charges/donations - with my photographs in order to increase the likelihood that those men and women are remembered.

Roxy

[Kirkes Lamb]

Al

I think that though the purposes are generally the same, the Projects are very different in nature.

The purpose of The War Graves Photographic Project is to provide a permanent online archive of ALL British service men and women who died 1914- to date. This is well over 1.5 million images, including private memorials.

The sheer scale of the project is, frankly, mind blowing, and without all us volunteers could not be achieved. Also, the IT costs of running the online archive would be well beyond the pockets of many people. Certainly I, and I am sure most of us, could not fund it without sacrifices. In addition, the voluntary work that goes in to the normal day to day running of the Project would surely tax even the most tolerant of families. There are no paid office staff beavering in the background!

Martin

Well said Martin - I know what you mean about stains on the family! The hassle I get from my wife when I want to jump out of the car and photograph half a dozen graves ( which normally leads to me photographing twenty) makes me wonder how these guys (Roll of Honour and the two photographic projects) get away with it! They must be dedicated having to fund it to boot!

[Chris_Baker]

Just my personal view. I do not wish in any way to denigrate the efforts of many people in pursuing this. But I am not sure I really appreciate why.

Every CWGC headstone is the same other than the details they carry and the material it is made from. The details and in many cases a photo of the cemetery are already available online. What do you (even a close relative who could never visit the grave) really get from having a photo of the headstone? Is it some kind of fulfilment or closure? I am interested in the views about this from both the photographers and their "clients".

[Dragon]

I’m afraid that the funding / donations issue is one that is not being satisfactorily answered and the lack of transparency preys on some people’s minds, including mine. The idea that recipients of photos ought to consider how much it would cost them to go themselves is as silly as suggesting that we ought to consider the cost of buying our own satellite and make a donation to Google Earth.

I emphasise that I believe that the project is thought to be worthwhile and I am not imputing malpractice in any form. I am also fully aware that the project needs money to cover the costs of hosting, peripherals, stationery, server space and so on.

Unfortunately, it can look as if a business set-up is being run on the backs of volunteer work. If ten people request two images at £3 per image, then that generates £60. Obviously that doesn’t cover the costs. But if one thousand people do the same, then £6000 is generated. Does that? (That is a rhetorical question.) What happens to the surplus, if there is one? What if the costs are not covered? It seems vague and fraught with risk.

The transparent way to do it is to state quite clearly what the projected costs for one year would be, broken down into items, and what the predicted number of requests is based on experience in the project’s former incarnation. That gives a basis on which a non-profitmaking charge can be levied.

However, a more adventurous solution would be to look at projected costs and set up a Founder Sponsor scheme. If the projected costs were £3000, they could invite people to join a list of one thousand people who would each make a one-off founding donation of £3. The list would be closed at one thousand people, who would be called Founder Sponsors and listed on a Roll of Honour.

This would cover the first year’s costs. During that time a model would emerge and the organisers would know how many image requests are coming in, what the costs of the project are and arrive at a proper charge / donation which reflects the nature of the project and its costs. After the first year, an appropriate charge could be levied for each photograph.

It is quite common for charitable or non-business enterprises to start in this way, having the first year free and then charging accurately instead of guessing. Purchasers are happy to pay for what is transparently calculated and volunteers don’t have reason to suspect that they are donating images and time for someone else to make a profit from, especially as we all know the cost of emailing an image or ten images.

Simply, I feel that it is unfortunate that a new start did not involve some new thinking about the way that images are charged, because this question has arisen again and again, and it is a fact that some people do not volunteer to take photos because they are not happy about the lack of transparency on this issue.

Gwyn

[Dragon]

Interesting question, Chris.

As a photographer, I get nothing out of photographing gravestones. There is no skill involved, no creativity required and it has no rewards for me. I took a few photos because there was a specific request for some images close to where I live and I did it to be helpful. I think the chances of a relative wanting to see my photos are virtually nil. I felt like a machine: grave, click, next, grave, click, next. I was recording human beings as if they were merely surnames on a list, or on stone, which they were. Tick, tick. Reduced to abbreviations. That's 20 WW2s and 5 x WW1s done. Having an image bank of 10000 virtually identical graves would do nothing for me; it would seem mechanised.

That's why I spend my time photographing unique buildings, for numerous reasons that it isn't appropriate to deviate into in this thread. It's an awful lot more rewarding for me.

Possessing a relative's CWGC headstone photo is pretty meaningless to me, whereas the photo we have of the original grave with his name roughly written on it and the soil still fresh is harrowing and poignant.

Sorry, but I thought Chris wanted honest asnwers.

Gwyn

[burlington]

Just my personal view. I do not wish in any way to denigrate the efforts of many people in pursuing this. But I am not sure I really appreciate why.

Every CWGC headstone is the same other than the details they carry and the material it is made from. The details and in many cases a photo of the cemetery are already available online. What do you (even a close relative who could never visit the grave) really get from having a photo of the headstone? Is it some kind of fulfilment or closure? I am interested in the views about this from both the photographers and their "clients".

Chris

I am sure that if I had a relative who died in whatever conflict, not just WW1, and I had not been able to visit the grave, then a photo would, as you say, represent some form of closure.

Whether the same argument applies to those hard working people who create localised or regimental memorial records and sites is a moot point but, again, it does complete the record.

What is also not really appreciated I expect is that though the majority of graves are within comparatively easy reach (depending where you live of course), some are not. Murmansk, Rangoon, Phillipines (are there any cemeteries there??), Falklands and so on are really quite difficult to reach especially if you are elderly or in poor health or struggle to make ends meet.

There is another, probably more wider-reaching and contentious, argument. We don't know the long term fate of these graves. Some are bound to be inundated if the climate change forecasters are correct, some may become out of reach due to political unpheavals, and eventually many will just disappear as indeed they are doing already. The time scale for all this is uncertain of course but the creation of a near-100% record would at least help to perpetuate the memory.

Whether anyone will care by then is a moot point!

Martin

[burlington]

I think Gwyn that each to his own. As for a fresh grave with the soil still disturbed etc, two years ago I was in a cemetery and one of the photos I took was of an Iraq war casualty. Besides the Welsh flag still flying, there was his teddy bear, some flowers etc.

That is fresh!

Another that springs to mind is a very large church cemetery in Hereford. I had 3 WW1 to take. In the end I found a block of 42 2-SAS regiment MOD-style grave markers. 1975-2004. Each one had red gladioli and there was an elderly gent going round saluting each grave.

Talk about the hairs on the back of your neck rising!

Martin

[alliekiwi]

My husband's grandmother died in June 2007, just a few weeks short of her 98th birthday. Through this forum I was able to get a photograph of her brother's headstone, along with photographs of the cemetery itself to show what the area was like. (A photo of the headstone is fabulous, seeing the area in which your loved one is buried is even better.)

She'd never seen the headstone, never knew exactly when he died or where he was buried. She cried like you wouldn't believe, her finger stroking the photograph. She'd only been a little girl when her brother went to war for a lark.

'From the Uttermost Ends of the Earth'. The Western Front cemeteries are just across the channel for those living in the UK. A bit of a pain to plan a trip - not exactly a day trip. Imagine what it's like from here.

It doesn't matter that to the photographer it's a name on a list, bend and click. To the recipient it means the world.

Allie

[John_Hartley]

Is it some kind of fulfilment or closure?

I've been fortunate to be able to visit the burial places of both my relatives killed during the war, so I can only speculate second hand.

But, yes, I think that if I had been unable to visit a photograph might have brought a closure (as visiting the cemeteries did). I think, perhaps moreover, I would want to see more than just a simple headstone shot, but some wider angle that set the grave in its context (in its time and place, if you like).

John

[Norrette]

I still find it quite hard to believe that a relative of mine served in a shooting war, we are such a whimpy lot! An image of his gravestone is proof positive he was there and fell with the others and I will leave the picture of it in a pack for the generations to come - to bring home the reality of that war.

Regarding volunteering, there is an inbuilt understanding on a site like FreeBMD that the work submitted by us will never be sold on for commercial use. I think there would be trouble if it were to happen.

[Stephen Nulty]

What do you (even a close relative who could never visit the grave) really get from having a photo of the headstone? Is it some kind of fulfilment or closure? I am interested in the views about this from both the photographers and their "clients".

As regards reasons for photographing headstones or memorial inscriptions, I see this as the last stage in the research of each casualty. With the men of Prescot that I am researching, some 315 in all, I aim to have three stages for each man.

First is a contemporary picture of him, plus associated background as to where he lived, his family details, where he worked, etc.

Next comes the details of his military service and can be a combination of his service/pension papers, linked with histories and war diaries, newspaper reports, etc.

The picture is the final stage. It shows that from his beginning (Stage 1), he went through his own personal experiences of the war (Stage2), which culminated in his death. Stage 3 simply shows his commemoration, letting it be known that some 90 years after his death, his grave or memorial has been visited, even if by a stranger to get the picture. He is not forgotten.

That’s my reason, anyway, for what it’s worth. Each to his own, eh?

[Terry Denham]

To answer some queries regarding funding, I resorted to asking the WGPP the question.

Steve Rogers replied stating that the project is currently in the process of being organised as a Community Interest Company - a not-for-profit organisation where any profit has to be ploughed back into the operation and none is dispersed to any other party.

This was a requirement of the alliance with CWGC and had to be set up from the beginning under the terms of their agreement.

[Dragon]

That is a lot more specific than the specious answer quoted in post 29. Thank you, Terry.

Gwyn

[John_Hartley]

That is a lot more specific than the specious answer quoted in post 29.

And more helpful too.

I think I sense continued defensiveness on the part of of some folk involved with the "successor projects" and, perhaps, some antagonism as well. Not surprising given the history, though.

But I think I've decided to leave the camera in its case for a while until I see how things pan out.

John

[Clive Maier]

... What do you (even a close relative who could never visit the grave) really get from having a photo of the headstone? Is it some kind of fulfilment or closure? ...

Ninety years and some generations on, I don’t think ‘closure’ can be the issue. And although the headstones are largely identical, so are the medals and the plaques. These things are documentary evidence of the unique life and the way it ended; the headstone often the only tangible relic. The photograph is a pilgrimage by proxy and that can be important. When I discovered that my uncle Oscar had a grave in France, the realisation that almost certainly nobody had ever been to see it troubled me greatly. My son and I made the trip and of course, we took the photograph. But if we had not been able to go, I would have liked to at least have seen the grave second-hand through a photograph. A picture of just any near-identical headstone would not have been the same at all.

[spidge]

Good question Chris, as I can see quite a range of different responses being presented.

Personally, I mentioned on a ww2 website that I was looking for a photo of a RAAF flyer in Germany to give to a friend. One member couldn't help me with Germany however he had a few from his local cemetery (Scampton) and asked if I wanted them, and it started from there.

I was involved in providing a photo to a woman in Sydney whose brother left for England when she was eight, and did not return. Her daughter had tried to get her a photo however the person she contacted wanted 20 pounds and being an invalid pensioner herself could not afford it! During a phone conversation about this woman to a friend of hers, her brother was unbelieveably one of the photos from Scampton.

She was given a print of the headstone and apparently cried uncontrollably for days. That was a great feeling for me.

Due to the story above, I will make them available to all "free of charge" now, and when they are on my website.

I still require about 9,000 for my project but I am hooked. I take my own in Australia with help from friends. I have offers of help from many people overseas as well.

It is also pleasing to me that these graves will receive an extra visit by someone who is proud of the ultimate price they paid.

Personally, I do not agree with websites charging for these photos on a commercial basis when they are supplied by volunteers however I am a realist and know that an undertaking of the site proposed must cover costs or the project will ultimately fail.

The inclusion of AFC photos will be an extension of my project, as this was where the RAAF was born.

[Peter Bennett]

When making comments like 10,000 headstones all look the same, the headstones might but the person is unique. In the words of the Flemish folksong; "Always Someone's Father, Always Someone's Son"

Apart from the volunteer work I do for the various projects, I take random photos especially with beautiful epitaphs (Australian & Newfoundland especially) and try to find out a little about the person.

Each one to his own, as stated earlier in the thread. I find some comments haughty and condescending.

[Dragon]

Presumably you mean me. I assumed that Chris wanted a variety of honest answers. That was mine. If it doesn't fit the forum party line, tough.

The fact is, though, that despite my own thoughts, I took and take photos. I have also taken numerous photos on a personal, private basis for individual forum members, not only of graves but of names on monuments, not only in the UK but in France. I did it because I recognise that it can be very hard for some people to visit the locations of graves and it matters to them, so I helped them. I have responded to many requests which have appeared in these web-pages over five years. I have offered material many times without being asked.

As anyone who has had my photos knows, I have gone to great trouble to take quality images, with reference and location shots, too. I have often accompanied the image with a descriptive piece of my own impressions or reflections, which is what I do best and am better at than photos. I believe I can communicate what the places are like much better in words. I can cite forum members who can verify that and confirm that the text was despatched to relatives with the photos. I can quote my pieces.

I might not like doing it, but I do it and willingly. Just because I don't get any personal, altruistic satisfaction or passion from it does not mean that my contribution is invalid.

I don't charge, either.

Gwyn