Launch of ' The War Graves Photographic Project' website

[Guest RichardHowman2]

Of course, if you wanted that number of photos from the Scottish War Graves Project....we'd gladly supply them, free of charge.

Well said...as indeed we wouldn't.... nor would we try to sell you a battlefield tour (lol)...

We're currently putting together an automated system where people can help each other to get grave and memorial pictures directly - without charge / donation or whatever... (I've always felt a bit bad that these conversations 'hyjack' this forum, so apologies for that).

You can upload a grave photo on the site live right now (www.ArmedForcesMemorial.org). And you can request a copy if you want one which we'll send you by email if we hold it. Well also update, amend and add new casualty information from all eras. The site isn't just about war grave photos - it's about recording peoples lives who were involved in the Armed Forces.

Incidentally, The National Archives charge £3 for medal index card downloads, and in their first year had 300,000 downloads.... even marked as a 'donation for a grave photo', you don't need to be Einstein to do the math on that one - but that's just my opinion.

Seeing posts elsewhere talking about it being right to levy a donation - I disagree. I founded and ran the British War Grave Project six years ago and later as a Director formed the British War Memorial Project Ltd., and through bitter experience of looking to justify donations, I learned that this is fundamentally wrong. The easiest path isn't often the right one...

Many of the other national war grave projects (Canadians, Australians, South Africans and New Zealanders), have almost completed the photography of their wargraves worldwide, so are worth a shout if you're looking for a serviceman from one of those nations... the Canadians alone have been at it for over ten years already...

Hope this helps?!

[Patrick H]

Does anyone have a link to the Canadian wargrave site?

Patrick

[Norrette]

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm...asualty=2954393

and

http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/sea...il.asp?ID=72006

Both links are for my man.

[Guest RichardHowman2]

Does anyone have a link to the Canadian wargrave site?

Patrick

Sure - the 'Maple Leaf Legacy Project' is the 'War Grave Project' of Cananda (and is a Canadian Charity). It was the first project of this sort: URL: http://www.mapleleaflegacy.org

[Roxy]

I'm certain that Allie is able to stick up for herself; however, I also think that silly typos such as 'Canadain' do detract from a site and makes it look less professional - that is why members of this forum often ask for Pals to review their work in order that these silly errors are found and removed at the earliest opportunity.

Roxy

[Dragon]

It's almost inevitable that you miss typos when you've been proofing something on a screen for a long time. It's very easy to get defensive and take constructive criticisms personally, when the comment was sincerely meant to be helpful.

I hope my comments were not inferred to be a response to Allie. Rather, I tend to get wound up by people saying something 'should' be done or that the site publishers ought to 'make an effort' to do something. Sometimes the people who are quick to criticise have no concept of how much time goes into getting a heavily information- and image-based website on-line.

This sort of website is an almost endless work-in-progress where the body of data has reached critical mass. The site becomes both a database and a data gathering tool. A professional feel to it makes all the difference.

Gwyn

[Neil Clark]

Gwyn,

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Instead of pulling things apart, why not see and if you could do better....

[Dragon]

Instead of pulling things apart, why not see and if you could do better....

Me??

[Neil Clark]

NO! The first part is addressed to you.... I agree with everything you said.

Sorry if what I stated mislead you. The second comment is aimed at all those snipers! lol

[Dragon]

Thanks for explaining.

[alliekiwi]

Sorry if what I stated mislead you. The second comment is aimed at all those snipers! lol

So which snipers were you aiming that message at, Neil? Me?

Why is it that because I pointed out an error and made some constructive criticism I deserve comments such as I should try and make a website that can do better? I am not 'sniping', I am pointing out a real error that detracts from the site in question.

I can't do html. I'm not a website designer. However, I am a website user and as such feel qualified to point out that some aspects may be confusing to users. I know how much work goes into websites, though, as I have friends who own websites - albeit not as large as this one is/will be.

I also felt/feel that CANADAIN on there should be tweaked. The comment was not made with malcious intent, it was meant constructively. Do we not all agree that the error should be removed - when the website owner has time to do so?

Yes, I understand [now] that the site is made and run by non-professional volunteers. However, the fact that it mimics the colours of the CWGC site and has 'In Association with The CWGC' in the top right hand corner makes one feel that it is in some way professionally (? not sure if this is the correct word I mean) associated with the CWGC. Thus, surely it deserves to be held to a higher standard than perhaps someone's personal site? On a genealogy page, for example, one comes across typos all the time and accepts that it's a hobby and not a commercial or professional venture - the person is having fun, trying their best and good on them.

Allie

[Black Watch]

Why do they call it a donation? If you want a photo you have to pay for it. That isn't what I'd call a donation, thats a purchase.

Neil

[spidge]

In my introduction to the forum today, I mentioned that I was cataloguing all RAAF deaths in WW2 of which there are over 11,000 in 65 countries. My intention is to put them on a website and make them available for free and possibly align it to the RAAF website.

Having said that, I would not have the associated high costs of maintenance as this "new" site would encounter, so there would have to be some injection of funding or the project would collapse.

I did make approaches for some photos to these sites however the cost, even cheaper by the dozen was well out of my budget so I decided to create my own network.

I have been overwhelmed by offers from other fora members around the world who have taken the time to supply me photos in their hundreds. I have the utmost respect for those volunteers who brave the elements, suffer bad backs, knees, ankles and strained eyesight. ( I know because I am doing country Victoria myself)

These projects must continue to go ahead so the contributions of our Armed forces to world peace will never be forgotten.

[burlington]

Yes, I understand [now] that the site is made ...........by non-professional volunteers.

Allie

Allie

For the record, I understand that the site construction was done by a highly respected and experienced firm of designers, at quite a high cost because of the major connectivity and database issues.

If this was a building, then the correction of minor and maybe not so minor errors would be called snagging (at least in the UK!). The same could really be levelled at websites post-publication. I know this from professional experience.

Typos and similar are often corrected in this way. Surely, the best thing to do if anyone finds typos or other nonsenses is to email Steve Rogers at the Project and advise him of these.

Regards

Martin

[Dragon]

... But we are now pointing out that perhaps there is no standard in place as yet and as you say it's not commercial. ... Next time I am over there I will take images of the whole cemetery. If no uploading - can we send images to an email account?

The guidelines and policy for volunteers are available on the website. Click on the Volunteers page and then on the .pdf download in the right hand panel.

I suspect that is as far as they can go without putting people off. As I said previously, volunteers won't be dictated to and if something seems too much hassle, they won't do it. That applies to volunteers generally and not just this specific project. I find I get annoyed by didactic instructions such as 'Remember to take a couple of overall photos...' I don't like being bossed around and I don't suppose I'm alone in that. A volunteer can easily think that s/he doesn't have to do it, and walk.

I'm not involved with the project, though I take the odd photo if someone specifically asks. When the previous incarnation wanted some from my area, I took a lot in local cemeteries, went to a great deal of trouble to get the light right for each headstone and record an atmospheric shot of the cemetery, and ended up with a quality product. I am not physically able to kneel down without considerable pain, but I did my bit. The greatest problem was trying to get my head round a messy and unviewable spreadsheet, which was inaccurate anyway and I ended up crossly wondering why I'd bothered. Too many complications - I told myself that if they wanted the pictures, they could have them on my terms; I'd label the image files and they could sort them out themselves with their spreadsheet.

What I'm saying is that if standards are too exacting, and project owners are too demanding, then volunteers just drift away. There's a very fine tension in achieving a professional-looking product with volunteer input without behaving as if you're paying people.

Gwyn

[Kirkes Lamb]

What is it they say about the worth of one willing volunteer?

I must admit I was miffed initially with the original site as I offered photos from a certain county but was advised that that county had been allocated to someone else to photograph! After a long period of time, I noticed that the county still hadnt been completed, so they would have been better off accepting my offer after all, however I am a big boy and continued photographing anyway, as I knew I was doing a good job for the public good and the bobbing up and down taking photographs and walking around the large cemeteries was a good was to retain my interest and do some excercise too!

There is no doubt the cost of making a project like this work is high in financial and time terms. If sites are produced professionally, one would expect the typos to be rectified without cost or delay, however from experience, you can read a document several times and miss typos, it is only when someone else with a fresh mind reads it, the errors become obvious.

I think these sites are excellent, it would be nice if they got external funding and there were no costs to obtain images, but even with the financial resources that the National Archives and other similar organisations have at their disposal , they still charge fees and it is a case of pay or dont get -we have the same options here!

My advice is that , as we all share this wonderful hobby and interest, get behind these projects and support them and each other and help build an archive we can all be proud of and can say we were part of its success!

[burlington]

Gwyn

Can I reply to your latest posting.

The data on the spreadsheet comes direct from the CWGC. It only covers WW1 & WW2. Burials resulting from other conflicts are, therefore, not on the sheet, because generally they are not known UNTIL the graves are found by the volunteers. This also applies to private family memorials eg 'To my son John who died in Mesopotamia and who is buried there'.

All these photos are taken and the spreadsheet should be annotated to ADD the previously unknowns and to MARK where known graves cannot be found- this latter is particularly appropriate for UK burial grounds.

As for taking a photo of the location, this has a twofold purpose. Firstly, if a lot of photos are being taken, to indicate where the location is. For example, if you are doing a CWGC cemetery in France, taking the entrance plaque would tell you whenre these pics belong to. Similarly in UK burial grounds but this is not so important. However, the location photo has another purpose. To give the receipient of a photo of a grave marker an indication of the sort of place where their relative etc is buried. If I lived in, for example, NZ, then I would think that this would be important to me.

Hope this is helpful

Martin

[Dragon]

The spreadsheet was defective. It wouldn't expand. I know how to use Excel and this had a glitch.

I would take a photo of the location as a matter of course, but I realise that some people mightn't. I respond better to phrasing along the lines of 'Please take a photo of...' rather than 'Don't forget to...' when it hasn't been mentioned earlier in the document and sounds like one of those patronising NHS posters that they plaster the walls with to stop you getting above yourself. It's simply the phrasing, not the request.

As I said, I willingly took photos, but I don't normally do it, which is my choice. I am very respectful of people who invest time on behalf of other people's projects and I understand the value of this project for relatives and researchers. I was somewhat disturbed at the level of charge, not donation, that people would have to pay for one of my simple images, but that's another story and I'm not going there.

I was just making the point that volunteers are a special breed and if the project organisers started ordering them to work, unpaid, to professional standards in order to avoid criticisms that photos are wonky or unclear, they would soon lose volunteers. I said that I felt that their guidelines were compatible with a community of volunteer photographers.

Gwyn

[John_Hartley]

volunteers are a special breed ..............they would soon lose volunteers.

They are. And they would.

I undertake some voluntary work locally. I do it because I enjoy doing it. If it ceased to be fun, I would stop. It is not like "real" work - the mortgage is already paid.

J

[Dragon]

As it seems from private communication that only plaudits about the WGPP are acceptable, I wish to make it clear that my recent postings started as responses to this earlier post:

I think that they could have made the effort to photograph the panels on the memorials and index these to the names. ... Also I looked at a random individual grave marker image and ...the quality is not good, the image is not straight or centered. Great idea but a better execution is required for it to be a commercial venture.

I was attempting to defend the project organisers. I have not criticised the volunteers, the standard of the website or the philosophy of the project.

However wonderful and noble I might feel for taking photos of graves, I do not want to do it and I am not going to do it again. That is my choice.

Gwyn

[apanderson]

Can I just add my tuppenceworth in defence of 'dodgy' photographs wherever and whatever site they're on???

I was a volunteer for a good few years for the BWMP and in my experience, a dodgy, unclear, blurd or less than professional looking photo is better than nothing at all.

I've crawled through brambles, been stung by jaggy nettles, had skint knees, been whacked in the face by pulled back branches and not once did I let it deter my 'quest' for getting a particular photo. I've made umpteen repeat visits to try and get a better shot, taking notes to go back in the winter when most of the trees would have shed their leaves etc. Trying flash, trying without flash, trying longer exposures, trying pretty much anything.

Nobody asked me to do it - I VOLUNTEERED!

I don't for one minute think I'm the only one who's done this - so next time anyone sees a blurd or unclear photo and isn't very happy with the quality - think on - it's not just a case of snap and forget - there's always a lot more to consider.

Rant over.

Anne

[swellal]

I have been following this discussion with some interest. When I first heard of this project, I was eager to assist them. I have several hundred photos of CWGC graves of 21st Battalion CEF soldiers that I was willing to send to them.

I made contact and they asked that I mail them a CD with the photos because of the large number involved. I was ready to do this until I read the small print on their website.

I was not so concerned about the fee for a print, but the fact that they were to assume copyright of the photos. Their plan is to post them on the website with a watermark to prevent someone from downloading them.

I am not prepared to give up copyright to the photos, nor do I think it fair to alter the photos I send them in order to prevent a family member from downloading it themselves. All of the photos are currently posted on our own website with no restrictions, and all are free to download.

If someone emails me with a request for a higher resolution copy for printing, I will do so at no charge, if I have it available.

Because of this issue, I decided not to send them the photos that I have. For those interested, the photos are already posted at this link

[burlington]

I was not so concerned about the fee for a print, but the fact that they were to assume copyright of the photos. Their plan is to post them on the website with a watermark to prevent someone from downloading them.

I am not prepared to give up copyright to the photos, nor do I think it fair to alter the photos I send them in order to prevent a family member from downloading it themselves. All of the photos are currently posted on our own website with no restrictions, and all are free to download.

Al

It is JOINT copyright.

As for the watermarking, would you really want all your hard work paraded around the world for a fee? The purpose of the watermark is to stop the images being used for commercial purposes.

None of us object to free use for a good cause (see previous postings) but if someone pinches the image from the web and then sells it on for a fee, then that is another matter.

You might not be aware that there are people who advertise that they will take pictures of grave markers, for a fee of course. Some of these are surely legit, but as for the rest...?

Martin

[swellal]

As for the watermarking, would you really want all your hard work paraded around the world for a fee?

I may a bit naive, but the purpose of our site is to provide the photos for free. If a family member is using the net to find information about a 21st Battalion relative, they will find our website with any search engine, and consequently find the photos.

If they are searching via family name, battalion name, or even something real general like CEF, they will find our site, not the commercial sites selling photos. Ebay may be a problem if people start looking there first, but that is usually down the list of search options of family members.

A large number of the photos on our website are also available on the Canadian Virtual War Memorial at this link

BTW, we supplied a good number of photos to that site and they are available there at no charge, and strange as it may sound, it is a government run site.

Bottom line is that if anyone wants to snatch a photo from our site, they are more than welcome to do so, that is why they are there. To share the memory of the 21st Battalion CEF with the world. FOR FREE

After all, isn't that what volunteers do best?

[burlington]

Al

I think that though the purposes are generally the same, the Projects are very different in nature.

The purpose of The War Graves Photographic Project is to provide a permanent online archive of ALL British service men and women who died 1914- to date. This is well over 1.5 million images, including private memorials.

The sheer scale of the project is, frankly, mind blowing, and without all us volunteers could not be achieved. Also, the IT costs of running the online archive would be well beyond the pockets of many people. Certainly I, and I am sure most of us, could not fund it without sacrifices. In addition, the voluntary work that goes in to the normal day to day running of the Project would surely tax even the most tolerant of families. There are no paid office staff beavering in the background!

Martin