trenchtrotter Posted 5 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2008 Interesting re the rear pin, we discussed this earlier in the thread. Helps to show the pins were mixed about at times. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 5 February , 2008 Share Posted 5 February , 2008 When i got this helmet i was Surprised to see this pin. But its origional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 6 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2008 Anzac16, I have no doubts re originality. I have a lovely M16 cammo with flat rear pin and also a M17 with fatter pin to the front. I have my doubts re this helmet...cant decide if original paint finish or not? I have read many accounts of British soldiers salvaging helmets for re furb and re issue and I am sure the Germans did the same. I am also sure they would have used whatever was to hand thus explaining the pins. Just beacause its not text book dont mean its wrong!! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 6 February , 2008 Share Posted 6 February , 2008 I have read many accounts of British soldiers salvaging helmets for re furb and re issue and I am sure the Germans did the same. I am also sure they would have used whatever was to hand thus explaining the pins. Just beacause its not text book dont mean its wrong!! TT I agree TT - one only has to look at the large amount of regimental QM inspection stamps often found on the inside of the rear peak of a single pickelhaube to see how extensively refurbishment went on. There's no reason to suppose that this didn't continue as the pickelhaube was superceded by the stahlhelm. I guess, too, that especially when early steel helmets were in short supply make do and mend was the order of the day. Regards, George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 6 February , 2008 Share Posted 6 February , 2008 Well i am sure its origional because the nail has never been removed and that shows in the leather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 6 February , 2008 Share Posted 6 February , 2008 Here are some picture's from the nails. This is the one in the back. And these are the one form the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 6 February , 2008 Share Posted 6 February , 2008 They all look very 'right' to me, Anzac - pretty clear that flat rear pin has been there since before 1918 I think! We haven't actually had any pics on this thread yet of a helmet being worn by its original owner, so here's one of a very smart-looking individual with what looks to be a mint condition helmet: By November 1918, of course, there weren't so many immaculate helmets to be found amongst the thousands cast aside and going for ten-a-penny to scrap metal merchants (makes you weep when you think what we pay for one today!) : ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 6 February , 2008 Share Posted 6 February , 2008 This is becomming a very interesting thread I would like to figer out what the name is but never had any succes with solving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 7 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2008 Anzac 16 I think you will never know....sorry! Well here is another helmet. This shows how age can dull the paint and give a patination. The second pic with flash has bought the colours to life somewhat and show what it may have once looked like! Sorry re the poor quality of the pictures...must get a studio set up. Regards all TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 7 February , 2008 Share Posted 7 February , 2008 Personly i prefer the green helmets than the camo helmets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 8 February , 2008 Share Posted 8 February , 2008 The plain field grey helmets certainly show off the stahlhelm's lines to better effect, Anzac, but of course the camo finish was designed to break up and distort the helmet's distinctive silhouette. The field grey (which itself can vary from an apple green to almost brown) definitely makes the helmet's styling origins in the mediaeval schallern more clearly apparent. Nice pics, TT - I see what you mean about the flash one perhaps giving a better impression of the original colour tones - particularly those sections which are finished in the standard field grey. I always find it an absolute b****r to get pictures which really accurately reproduce the colour tones apparent when you see the helmet 'in the metal'. Having said that, though, the colour can seem to change quite dramatically if you take the helmet outdoors and see it in daylight - even seeing it on a bright day as opposed to a dull day shifts the colour! ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airborne Posted 1 April , 2008 Share Posted 1 April , 2008 Hi. I'm new to this forum, and I'd like to have your opinion on my 1916 camo helmet. Somebody who took a look at the camouflage pattern said it certainly had the right age, but due to the 'bright' colours and the breadth of the black stripes this could be a post-war 'souvenir' repaint. On the outside as well as on the complete inside, including where there once was the liner band, a base coat of bright green paint has been applied. Afterwards, on the outside the camouflage pattern was painted on top of the base coat, with brown, yellow and open spaces where there was already green paint. I know souvenir repaints are considered vintage but anyway I'd like to know if the pattern has been applied during the war or not. Thanks anyway Jeroen Pollentier Here are some pics: http://www.geocities.com/jeroenpollentier/Camo1.JPG http://www.geocities.com/jeroenpollentier/Camo2.JPG http://www.geocities.com/jeroenpollentier/Camo3.JPG http://www.geocities.com/jeroenpollentier/Camo4.JPG http://www.geocities.com/jeroenpollentier/Camo5.JPG http://www.geocities.com/jeroenpollentier/Camo6.JPG http://www.geocities.com/jeroenpollentier/Camo7.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2008 Jeroen, Very hard to say from photos. I agree with your friend re the thickness of the lines but all helmets were hand painted so there are huge variations! If it is a post war repaint (vintage or modern) somone has taken huge efforts to distress it which would support your theory of a repaint some years ago. Sorry I cant be more helpful. I would have to see the piece first hand. Where did it come from and what history does it have that you know of? Bottom line though is if you are happy then thats what counts! Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 4 April , 2008 Share Posted 4 April , 2008 Jeroen, it looks like there is paint on top of pitting which would make it a complete,not that old rehash. Again hard to see in photos. GAC's right about green/brown for field grey. Look at these.... I find natural light is always best but,even with these photos,you do not see the 'real' colour. Difficult one. Dave. ps,there is no paint missing from the outside of this tin hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airborne Posted 4 April , 2008 Share Posted 4 April , 2008 Jeroen, Very hard to say from photos. I agree with your friend re the thickness of the lines but all helmets were hand painted so there are huge variations! If it is a post war repaint (vintage or modern) somone has taken huge efforts to distress it which would support your theory of a repaint some years ago. Sorry I cant be more helpful. I would have to see the piece first hand. Where did it come from and what history does it have that you know of? Bottom line though is if you are happy then thats what counts! Regards TT thanks for your replies. I bought it at a fair when I was fourteen or so for about 75 euros. I don't know anything else about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 25 December , 2008 Share Posted 25 December , 2008 It seems that the 'credit crunch' hasn't yet impacted on the values being realised by good quality helmets: Camouflage Helmet ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme gt Posted 26 December , 2008 Share Posted 26 December , 2008 My only camo for what its worth . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 26 December , 2008 Share Posted 26 December , 2008 What it's worth will be a tidy sum Graeme - it's got a lot going for it: nice camo finish, M18 cut-out and field medics identifier. Very nice helmet. Does it have its original liner fitted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme gt Posted 26 December , 2008 Share Posted 26 December , 2008 Just no strap ,pads are hanging by a thread blue pockets have you seen that before ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 27 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2008 Graeme, Re the blue pads, towards the end of the war due to shortages and an increase in the use of "erzatz" material anything went so the blue could be original. The state of the pads would show originality but would have to see the helmet. Re the cammo and red cross....if original it would indeed be a rare bird. I have only ever seen a couple of original cut out cammos but also loads of post war helmets with post war paint jobs. I have never seen a photo of a medic with the cross painted on the helmet but I am sure I have just thrown the gauntlett down to forum people to post examples. I have seen small red crosses at the front but again only on helmets and not photos. Has the helmet been laquered or is it the effect of the flash? Finally do you know its provenance and as always if you are happy with it then that is what counts. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme gt Posted 27 December , 2008 Share Posted 27 December , 2008 Graeme, Re the blue pads, towards the end of the war due to shortages and an increase in the use of "erzatz" material anything went so the blue could be original. The state of the pads would show originality but would have to see the helmet. Re the cammo and red cross....if original it would indeed be a rare bird. I have only ever seen a couple of original cut out cammos but also loads of post war helmets with post war paint jobs. I have never seen a photo of a medic with the cross painted on the helmet but I am sure I have just thrown the gauntlett down to forum people to post examples. I have seen small red crosses at the front but again only on helmets and not photos. Has the helmet been laquered or is it the effect of the flash? Finally do you know its provenance and as always if you are happy with it then that is what counts. Regards TTIt may have been lacquered in the past but the f lash has exagerated it ,no provenance i bought it at auction years ago .I have my doubts about the red cross only because its so rare ,the actual camo paint is so dull and faded i think it must be right.Not like some that are relatively bright and its hard to believe they pushing a 100 years old .I would be intrested to hear your views . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 28 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2008 Graeme, Firstly is it maker and size marked? Should be ET 64 as I believe these were the only examples made in 1918 during the war. Re the paint finish....it is always hard to say from a photo image. I look for wear round the rim and crown as a good sign because if the paint finish is nearly 100 years old then this is where one would expect wear and tear to show. Is the cammo finish on top of a field grey or "flock" type paint finish? The only thing one can say re cammo paint finishes is that they are so commonly found faked one must trust ones judgement and experience from handling as many as possible. I have some in my collection I am undecided on even now having owned them for a number of years. I have read somewhere that only 1500 of these helmets were made before the armistice but I find this figure somewhat too low to believe. I have only ever seen one or two photos of it being worn during the war and that was a training shot. The last field grey one I saw on the market was £800 and a poor cammo with a hole through rust at the crown a similar figure. I hope yours is right but as stated I doubt the red cross. I have seen this added to perfectly good WW11 helmets also! The inside looks good as do the pads. By 1918 the quality of the pads was awful and they are now often found disintergrating like yours. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 28 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2008 GAC, The one you posted your link to went for approx £1,200! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151mg Posted 28 December , 2008 Share Posted 28 December , 2008 An excellent helmet example Max - and some tantalising glimpses of a sword collection in the background! For comparison of some of the different colour schemes and black dividing line contours, here's some pics of the centrepiece of my Stahlhelm collection, an M17 (steel liner band) with the insignia of the 8yh company, 1st Foot Guards Regiment. The interior shot (shown in a follow-up post) shows the plain base colour of the helmet, whilst the exterior sports an autumn pattern of two shades of green (one of which consists of the original base colour of the helmet) and two of brown. A very similar helmet from the same unit appears on p.62 of Baer. And although the official directives for painting these helmets did not appear until July 1917, it's worth bearing in mind Baer's observation that the vast majority of surviving examples helmets with the officially specified camo paint finishes are actually on M16 helmet shells which were still in service in the last 18 months of the war. ciao, GAC ] Sorry, but had to chime in with some others on line here, while indeed a real helmet, it is a repaint. One point is the way the "white" paint is browned. I have many helmets with white paint on them and the serious browing shown on this helmet is due to "english walnut wood stain" or storage heat damage that would also have caused damage or cracking to the paint and liner. Helmets that have sweet and nice paint to this date have been stored in a nice way thus preserving the pigment of the whit paint too. That baing said I still would have no problems displaying this with my real helmets in that it is indeed a nice looking helmet and has value in that it is a quality job. I have a repaint M18 Prussian guard helmet in my collection, simply because I know I dont have the bucks (Quid) to get a real one if it came to auction. So, IMHO nice helmet, just not real paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme gt Posted 28 December , 2008 Share Posted 28 December , 2008 GAC, The one you posted your link to went for approx £1,200! TTH Hi TT ,thanks for your help i can just see a 64 where the pen is pointing im pretty sure of the camo and if the cross is bogus they did agood job of it .Checked my records and i got it at wallis & wallis nov 98 for £435 all in . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now