German Helmet conundrum

[Smithmaps]

Just to add to the pile. This helmet was a relatively recent acquisition. The collector who sold it to me no longer felt confident that he had a genuine example. Some dealers told him it was a re-paint and had sewn enough seeds of doubt that he no longer wanted to keep it. I bought it as I wasn’t convinced it was a repaint, but I could be wrong.

I would have bought it!

Slight possibility that the black might have been touched up/freshened, but the rest looks straight enough.

Guy

[George Armstrong Custer]

GAC

I'm in the same boat as you on this. I have a M17 camoflage helmet that is in a similar condition to yours. I bought it from a Dutch dealer who doubted its authenticity, so he obviously felt like Hudson. 'If its to good to be true then it probably is'. In the case of my helmet it has Autumn colour camo, with narrow lines. The lines look like then have been formed by using some form of fabric tape as you can see a regular ragged edge in close up. Whoever painted it took a lot care. The paint is quite aged and has darkened in many areas. The liner looks almost new but is unlike any repo I have ever seen, and the interior paintwork is just like yours. I also know that my helmet came originally from the North German coast - Baltic - area from a quiet country town.

I have to look at these alternatives for my helmet.

Is it a genuine M17 shell and band? - Yes

Is it a recent re-paint? - No

Is it an un-issued helmet? - Maybe

Is the liner repro? - doubtful

Has the helmet seen operational use? - Minimal if at all, but the liner has been worn.

For me I have to guess that I either have a genuine nearly new condition M17 camo helmet that was looked after for a long time or I have a helmet that was repainted at least 50 years ago. I don't believe a helmet has to be very battered to be authentic. I have shown it to one dealer in Kent who thought it to be the real thing.

I'll post some photos this evening when I have more time.

Gunner Bailey

Hi GB, yes I agree with all you say about an item not having to be battered or worn to be authentic. However, in the case of genuine items, however 'mint' they are, there are always little age related clues which give the piece the right 'air' or 'feel' when you hold and examine it. These age cues can be faked, of course, with varying degrees of skill - but experience of handling genuine items, combined with a knowledge of where your item was bought or acquired from (especially if many years ago), puts one in the position to make an informed judgement. Photographs, due to lighting, reflection, colour reproduction, focus, etc. often cannot convey this and may make a genuine article look repro or tampered with or, conversely, lend a dodgy item a spurious authenticity. On this particular thread it probably didn't help assessments such as hudson's that my comparatively pristine-looking pics came right after the first quite battered example posted by Max - the contrast is, comparatively speaking, quite startling. However, I have Crimean uniforms and headgear through inheritance which a dealer would list as being 'mint' - and they would look almost 'new' in photographs. But knowing the family provenance of these I therefore know that it's quite possible for items nearly 160 years old to have survived in exceptionally good condition becaiuse they didn't see hard use in the field and have been cherished and properly cared for and stored ever since. Similarly I've seen pickelhauben and Stahlhelm trophies of the Great War sitting in libraries and hallways of the country houses of the landed gentry where they have sat undisturbed since the were taken as souvenirs by the sons of the house who served. When the contents of one of these houses have been sold off from time to time these very well preserved examples of militaria come onto the market. On the other hand, many of the helmets brought home as souvenirs by the rank and file Tommies spent years kicking about at the back of coal cellars or the like before eventually coming onto the market years later. Then, too, one has to allow for the variations in how battered or worn an item was from field use before it became a war trophy. Really good helmets may never have been 'trophies' at all, but belonged to officers etc. who had been primarily engaged on work in the rear of the lines, and would often seldom have been worn. With a higher prospect of having survived the war, many of these would have been retained after the war by their original owners. Such helmets coming onto the market as the estates of their original owners were broken up years later were, of course, avidly snapped up as 'pristine' examples by collectors.

ciao,

GAC

Here's a couple of shots of the helmet I posted pics of earlier which I took outside in natural light today:

[Gunner Bailey]

GAC

I agree with what you say about an item being looked after being still in the original condition. I have a number of pieces of brass and iron from WW1 that have been well looked after by my familiy for 90 years and they are pristine.

As you will see from the photos the paint on my helmet is still bright in places but has darkened in others. It has a shine to it that gives the impression it has been polished over a long period. It is not glossy paint, nor has it been varnished but it still has a slight shiney finish. I doubt if a 'forger' would add that. It also has areas where the paint has roughened, or has been impacted and small pieces have lifted. There are areas where dirt has become deeply ingrained in the paint, as though it was not painted in clean conditions, though it was done with care.

The inside is pretty similar to yours though the liner is different and has not had as much wear. I'd like to think this helmet was only issued in September 1918 and was out of use by November 1918, so had a very short life in the war. The fact that it originally came from a quiet rural area of Germany may support my hopes that it is genuine, and over time was a well cared for souvenir of the war.

Gunner Bailey

[George Armstrong Custer]

Nice pics. GB! What yoiu say about parts of your helmet having a slight shine to the finish which is not due to shiny paint is interesting. The helmet Ive shown above has a slight shine to the brown area on the very crown of the helmet, but on this same section of brown the finish returns to matt away from the very top of the helmet. This top area is also by far the most chipped arrea of paintwork on the helmet, apart from round the edge of the rim of the whole helmet, where almost all the paint is gone. It appears as if the wear and tear had been caused to this area either through the helmet being laid down upside down a lot, or that sitting top uppermost, this has been the most vulnerable to knocks at some point in its post-war life, as well as perhaps the hands of folk coming across it touching the top - the paint at that point certainly looking as though the slight shine may be due to rubbing. That's a slightly unusual leather liner in your helmet - are there any markings on its reverse?

By way of contrast here's a couple of pics of a standard finish helmet in my collection, an M16 with leather liner band. Although it's an excellent example, it hads a degree of paint loss. Though some of this is undoubtedly wear and tear, it's also due in my opinion to these early M16 helmets not having particularly thick coats of paint applied - something they seem to have in common with the early raw-edged British Brodie's.

In these pics, even taken outdoors with natural light, there appears a degree of 'shine' to areas of this helmet which are not there in reality. Looking at the first two pictures below, the right hand side as you view both gives the truest reproduction of the helmet's actual colour and finish - the left hand sides are distorted by light reflection.

ciao,

GAC

[Gunner Bailey]

Hi GAC

To add to the mix here's a helmet I bought in France and have fitted a Repro liner. The end result is almost identical to yours. Shiney bit is caused solely by flash in his case. This helmet has original field green paint.

Gunner Bailey

[George Armstrong Custer]

Excellent, GB! Your pic of a repro liner fitted to a genuine helmet proves beyond doubt how a photo can deceive, and I'm sure these comparisons will prove a useful guide to collectors looking at this thread. Here's some closer pics of the liner in my helmet - the arms of the liner securing pins are rusted and oxidised into the leather of the M16 liner band, indicating that it's never been removed fronm the helmet:

ciao,

GAC

[Max Poilu]

To add a bit more I will throw in some close-ups of one of the best (IMHO ) repro liners out there. Not perfect but excellent quality and when it has been in the time machine as here it could fool someone who has not handled the real thing...

[Max Poilu]

Continued...

[Max Poilu]

And here another 'aged' repro liner, this time a M17 liner:

[Max Poilu]

This is a genuine M16 liner that was removed from one of the helmets I pictured earlier. You can see the problem as they shrink and fall apart with age and poor storage. There is a big incentive out there to produce good repro liners. Difficult to really replicate true age - most often in the way sweat affects the leather liner tongues:

[Max Poilu]

Continued:

[Max Poilu]

Rounding off - some repro aged pillows, horsehair stuffed cloth/sackcloth and 'original' type horsehair and cotton.

[Max Poilu]

And a M16 repro strap after a very short aging in the time machine:

[Gunner Bailey]

GAC / Max

The liner Max has shown in Post 33 is identical to mine even down to the 'sooty' pillows. Though mine does have horsehair filled pads. They are beautifully made and would fool many people.

Gunner Bailey

[George Armstrong Custer]

Chaps, this thread is establishing an excellent database of images of both genuine and repro German helmet finishes and fittings. Here's some detailed shots of the liner band from the M16 I posted earlier, this time with the liner flaps lifted, showing the leather on the sections of the band which is usually covered by the flaps to be markedly less discoloured than the exposed sections between the flaps. Note, too, the discolouration to the surrounding leather by the oxidisation of the securing pins. These pins were originally factory-fitted with a special tool, and if they've never been removed will, as in this example, be pressed very firmly flat to the point of embedding in the band leather. As the metal rusts it sticks to the leather - something harder to fake. I believe trying to open the pins on the example shown now would cause them to break - all of the above points being worth bearing in mind when examining a helmet.

[Max Poilu]

Here is how to stamp out your own shell:

[trenchtrotter]

Max,

Excellant...Ill just gointo the garage and knock one out now!

TT

NB although this thread has slightly deviated from the topic I think as mentioned it is turning into a great data base. I welcome any input on the German helmey....as remarked on another thread I consider it to be the icon of the Great War and sums up the Western Front.

I have quite a collection myself and will get round to putting a few varients of the cammo finish up. I am tempted with one from Regimentals at the mo, a unusual paint finish, some shrapnel / fragmentation damage and bearing a red cross to the front. However at £700.........

Have a look!

Regards all

TT

[Max Poilu]

Yep, Regimentals have always had an amazing variety for sale, in the old days their shop at Islington was an incredible place to visit but they still take a good selection of Stahlhelm to War and Peace each year. You will pay for them though...

[trenchtrotter]

Max,

I remember the shop in Islington well!! How I drooled in the days before I had money..... not that I have more now...kids! I have bought a few from Malcolm over the years and they are good ones. His prices have risen and a field grey seems to command the price of a cammo about three or four years ago! A good field grey example is getting harder to find but they are equally as good.

Keep the comments and images flowing chaps...enjoying this thread.

TT

[trenchtrotter]

One of my favourites. Its a ET 64 model and has Kapolka Karl 1918 scrawled faintly across the rear neck guard. Unusual finish but totally original.

Regards

TT

[George Armstrong Custer]

Max,

I remember the shop in Islington well!! How I drooled in the days before I had money..... not that I have more now...kids! I have bought a few from Malcolm over the years and they are good ones. His prices have risen and a field grey seems to command the price of a cammo about three or four years ago! A good field grey example is getting harder to find but they are equally as good.

Keep the comments and images flowing chaps...enjoying this thread.

TT

Yes, I remember Regimentals in Islington - I was last there in the summer of 1982, so I take it they're long gone from these premises and are solely an online entity now? Also in Islington at that time was a small militaria shop specializing mainly in Third Reich items and run by Chris Farlowe, ex-60's pop star (big hit: 'Out of Time'). And there was another good militaria outlet in the arcade-like place in Islington. Online shopping can't beat the experience of browsing in a well-stocked militariua shop!

Back to helmets. To add to the database, here's an unusual camo finish - no black lines, just streaky brown patterns over the base field grey, looking almost like streaks of rust at first glance. This particular M16 helmet clearly continued to see service after the Armistice, and bears the insignia of the Brigade Erhardt Freikorps, a white swastika on the front and the numerals '47' on the rear skirt. Undoubtedly original, this actual helmet appears on p.76 of Baer (showing the Erhardt Brigade swastika on the front). The liner of this helmet is of interest for comparison purposes as it shows an original M16 liner in less well preserved condition than the one I posted earlier:

ciao,

GAC

[Gunner Bailey]

GAC

That last helmet is really interesting-thanks

I've removed the liner in my Camo M17 nd there is nothing written in the liner band. There just seems to be some re-stitching where some of the original thread has perished with time. 80% of the original thread is there. Apart from that it is 'clean'.

Gunner Bailey

[Max Poilu]

Any of you chaps got the two volume set by Haselgrove - "The History of the Steel Helmet in the First World War"?

Had a flick through these in Foyles this morning - they must be the ultimate reference manuals. Very weighty, full colour, large format and beautiful reproduction of all the variants of steel helmets from all the main combatants. Only problem is £120 the pair but probably worth it.

[trenchtrotter]

Max,

I was put off by the fact that they put British and German in different volumes. To be honest I am only really interested in the Brit / German/ French helmets. The other nations should have been the seperate volume...marketing I suppose. I have his other book though! I am in Foyles London tomorrow and will have a flick myself.

Regards

TT

[Max Poilu]

I know what you mean but when you see them you will want them!

This was my first visit to Foyles for some years - now revamped and 'modernised'. Hmmm, missed the old layout - a lot of the older books they used to carry seem to have disappeared, looks much like Waterstones now.