trenchtrotter Posted 17 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2007 Yeah...know what you mean. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 17 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2007 Guys, Here is a nice bog standard feild grey one. Named to interior with unit markings. Lets not forget the standard ones...should be far more common than they are. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 17 October , 2007 Share Posted 17 October , 2007 Guys, Here is a nice bog standard feild grey one. Named to interior with unit markings. Lets not forget the standard ones...should be far more common than they are. TT Nice helmet TT. Has it been camoflaged at some time in its history? Looks like old black bands are slightly visible. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 17 October , 2007 Share Posted 17 October , 2007 1918 : 4 colours without black stripes, ersatz chinstrap in canvas. Cnock new try Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 17 October , 2007 Share Posted 17 October , 2007 left : dark green with black stripes right : olive green Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 17 October , 2007 Share Posted 17 October , 2007 Here are some further pics of another cammo M16 - interesting 'cross' pattern which can be seen from the top down view: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 17 October , 2007 Share Posted 17 October , 2007 Continued: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 17 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2007 Gunner Bailey, No just the light i think...no trace of cammo paint. TT PS all thanks for the postings...keep em coming...thanks cnock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tafski Posted 17 October , 2007 Share Posted 17 October , 2007 great threads chaps makes me drool only examples i have are dug ones and i love em to bits even if they are in bits tafski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 18 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2007 just like you tafski old pal...a lovable relic! Your pal TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 18 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2007 To keep this flowing and to access the knowledge and views of others here is another question... How many helmets have you seen with the larger rear split pin for the liner either replaced with a standard front pin or even being found in one of the front holes? Do you believe this to be a sign of a modern liner being inserted or wartime economies and using re issued / salvaged helmets? Your views please. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 18 October , 2007 Share Posted 18 October , 2007 TT, Until now never seen on an original helmet. Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 18 October , 2007 Share Posted 18 October , 2007 Gentlemen, I think the following can address both Tafski's reference to relic helmets and some of TT's question regarding split pins. Firstly a relic helmet. The M16 helmet shown below was excavated in 2002 from an area near La Boiselle on the Somme which saw heavy fighting in early July 1916. Although this helmet has entry and exit bullet holes, very little of the helmet's structure has broken away at the point of entry at the left temple. This structural integrity of the helmet was the goal of the designers of the prototype Stalhlhelm, Dr. August Bier and Professor Friedrich Schwerd, who required that it would be resistant to flying shell splinters, although not a direct hit from a rifle bullet - but that it should, however, be constructed of materiel of sufficient integrity to ensure no secondary metal fragments would enter the skull in substantial numbers after the penetration of the helmet by a bullet. The first picture shows the entry hole and that the steel surrounding that hole has very little in the way of splits or broken off fragments: the main structure remains intact - the white rod passed through the entry hole can be seen protruding from the exit hole in the area of the rear right of the helmet's cranium: The second image shows the exit hole at the top rear right of the helmet. Here the helmet has suffered more damage, with the steel surrounding the exit hole distorted upwards from the helmet, and splits of up to nearly an inch running off from it: The third image of the hemet interior makes it grimly apparent that this helmet's wearer could not have survived the bullet which struck it, with the trajectory path indicated by the white rod: It can also be seen from the substantial sections of it which survive just how durable the leather M16 liner can be even after some 86 years in the ground. In this case it remains attached to the helmet by the rear split pin - the side pins remain but their securing 'wings' are rusted away. As to relic helmets as collectors pieces they do, on the one hand, offer an affordable opportunity for collectors on a limited budget to acquire what is an undoubtedly authentic piece at a time when more pristine original and untouched helmets command ever increasing premiums. On the other hand, a relic helmet is just that, and one dug from the ground will in most cases already be in an advanced state of decomposition which, from a purely metallurgical point of view means that it is going to eventually crumble away sooner rather than later. Coating the helmet with acrylic sealants or rust inhibitors takes it away from being an 'as found' relic but falls far short of restoration, so that delaying the inevitable is, I suppose, a conundrum which each collector must resolve in accordance with their own preferences. The other point to bear in mind with relic helmets is the fact that some of these undoubtedly come from where a body has lain from the time of death in battle - in other words an unmarked war grave. So I think collectors need to exercise real caution in who they purchase such pieces from and to ask searching questions as to provenance as far as the circumstances of its unearthing are concerned. Finally, TT's question about split pins is of interest here in that the relic helmet pictured above has all three present after decades in the ground, and the rear and side pins were of the correct configuration and in their proper places. Like Cnock, I've never come across a helmet where a rear pin has been used to secure one of the sides or vice versa - at least not on a helmet that isn't sugestive of having been 'parts bin' assembled post-war! ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 19 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2007 GAC, Nice pictures of the relic. Re my point about pins though. One example does not make the rule! I do believe that the pins can get swapped and are not examples of post war medalling. If you use the book Helmets of the First WW as your bible then it features such an example. I have one helmet that has all three pins as the flatter variation but it is an unmessed with example. It all boils down to knowing your own judgement and trusting your instinct i suppose. I do however welcome your pov and debate. Max, checked the books out at foyles......they now reside on my table...doh. Lucky i just had my birthday!!! Regards all and keep it flowing. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 19 October , 2007 Share Posted 19 October , 2007 To keep this flowing and to access the knowledge and views of others here is another question... How many helmets have you seen with the larger rear split pin for the liner either replaced with a standard front pin or even being found in one of the front holes? Do you believe this to be a sign of a modern liner being inserted or wartime economies and using re issued / salvaged helmets? Your views please. TT TT If you look closely at the my photos of my camo helmet you will see it has a 'rear' pin in the front, and also in the rear. I have not changed this as it was as I acquired it and the paint matches. I thought that if the helmet had been repainted by someone trying hard to make it 'authentic' they would have ensured the correct pins were fitted all round. Sets of the three pins are readily available at arms fairs in France and I have a couple of sets awaiting helmets and liners. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 19 October , 2007 Share Posted 19 October , 2007 Evening GB & TT! Yes, I take your points about the fact of pins ending up in the wrong positions not necessarily being an indicator of incompetent post-war tampering. I probably could have worded my post better, but essentially was meaning that I've never personally handled a helmet that I felt was 100% genuine where the pins weren't of the correct type in the correct positions, including the relic example I used. However, as you are both aware from examples in the literature or your own collections, pins of the wrong type being used is not conclusive proof of a badly rebuilt helmet done post-war. I guess it stands to reason that field repairs used whatever parts were available - and if all that was on hand at a given moment were rear securing pins then these would be used all round to fit a liner. As TT says, you get a 'feel' for whether something out of the ordinary is contemporary with a piece or whether it's some general antiques dealer knocking up a 'complete' helmet from a couple of incomplete ones. And something no-ones mentioned yet is the peculiarly musty smell of the interior of a genuine helmet -you'll know what I'm talking about I'm sure, it's instantly recognisable as 'genuine'! Finally well done on the books, TT - birthday money or tokens, so no explanations to the missus necessary - you could teach Mr Broomfield a thing or two! ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 19 October , 2007 Share Posted 19 October , 2007 Evening GAC too. After the passing of 90 years how much how what is left can be guaranteed fully authentic? How many Mills Bombs in people's collections have their original striker, spring, brass plugs and levers. Not many I guess. Over the years things get detached, broken and are replace with what everis to hand. It amuses me sometimes to see a '1915' Mills Bomb on ebay with the wrong lever and wrong striker. The sellers are often unaware that parts have been changed. It must be the same with helmets to some extent. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 19 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2007 GB and GAC, Thanks for the replies. All valid points. Re the musty smell...yes I totally agree. It was one of the first things I was told to check. Always smell the helmet!!!Sorry dont mean to be rude but that is what I was told when buting Pickelhaubes and German helmets! You cannot fake the odour! GB will re examine your pics! Regards all TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 19 October , 2007 Share Posted 19 October , 2007 GAC, Max, checked the books out at foyles......they now reside on my table...doh. Lucky i just had my birthday!!! Regards all and keep it flowing. TT What did I say? - "...but when you see them you will want them!" Now officially jealous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 Hi everybody, I think I have seen yet some 100 original helmets ( with or without camo) Some 40 years ago You could still find them in cellars or lofts, other more rusty exemples were used in gardens to put flowers in , or used by farmers. Just want to say that these were all helmets that had never been in hands of traders, and not one had the pins removed. Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 The dealer 'Regimentals' is mentioned in this thread. Last night I checked their website and they have at least one German Helmet being sold with the 'wrong pins' in place. I think that confirms it's just another part of each helmet's history. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 I do wishthat my grandfathers helmet from the GW and his 27th Jaeger service had survived in the family still. I know the uniform, webbing, boots et al are in the foyer of a Finnish Jaeger Battalion, in southern Finland. His Shalko is still in family with the covering for it. I think his original helmet is with the uniform, and I think it was camouflaged, but I don't know when. Regards Mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 OK Here are my two. I will add a couple of posts with better pictures. Both are 100% genuine, I have owned both for 30yrs plus, and paid almost nothing for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 The first is a totally genuine paint scheme, that has had nothing but one or two cleans in 30 yrs. It had no liner, and I have fitted a good repro. I am missing one stud, anybody know where I can get one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 The second is the helmet refered to earlier in the thread. It came to me in about 1979 painted silver by a child with modelling paints. It was also covered in kids stickers. Many hours were spent removing it, and I am certain it is original. As you can see, the scheme is very different from the previous posted helmet. It has no liner. Here is the detail of come of the Silver paint still in the finish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now