Max Poilu Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 You can find them at most French fairs and some in the UK too. They are also on ebay from time to time. This guy in the US holds stock of 14-18 spares: http://germanhelmetsinc.com/reproduction%2...0comonents.html He also has an excellent section on various FAQ's re 14-18 Stahlhelm: http://germanhelmetsinc.com/faq.html PS [whispers] - if anyone is interested, the liner I showed in post #32 is available (fits 64 shell)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 20 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2007 Smithmaps, The once silver helmet is interesting. I think there is no end to the various schemes and that is what makes this thread particularly interesting for me. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 Smithmaps, The once silver helmet is interesting. I think there is no end to the various schemes and that is what makes this thread particularly interesting for me. Regards TT Yes it is very similar to the helmet in post #6, but with fewer sections. my understanding was that these helmets were done in the field by soldiers to a military spec. So it is quite right for each one to be slightly different. I assume that the paint would have been army supplied. I wonder if the variations in colour equate to the theatre of war (or indeed date), and the particular combination of colours that arrived from army stores. Were any actually done by the factories after a certain date I wonder? Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 20 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2007 Would a helmet worn by a soldier in the autumnal Argonne forest need to have the same cammo pattern as one worn in Flanders or the chalky Somme uplands. The greens of summer would give way to the reds and golds pf autumn and so for the cammo to be most effective the colours would need to change. I know the primary objective was to break up the silouhette and shape but colours must have varied with theatre etc! One ponders!! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 Would a helmet worn by a soldier in the autumnal Argonne forest need to have the same cammo pattern as one worn in Flanders or the chalky Somme uplands. The greens of summer would give way to the reds and golds pf autumn and so for the cammo to be most effective the colours would need to change. I know the primary objective was to break up the silouhette and shape but colours must have varied with theatre etc! One ponders!! TT Absolutely right, way back in post #3 - the directive from July 1918 stating a standard style (lozenge pattern) with official colours - green, yellow ocre and rust brown - but these were the colours for Summer only. Other theatres and seasons demanded other patterns but whether there were similar specific directives naming the specific colours? [Edit] Just re-read that info - it does in fact state that the helmet should be painted in sympathy with the relevant season and the summer colours are given as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 20 October , 2007 Share Posted 20 October , 2007 Excellent points being made as ever, gentlemen! Guy - post #2 notes that factory painted camouflage - or 'mimicry' - helmets were authorized as of 15 July 1918, just 8 days after the Order setting out the formal requirements for camouflage painting in the field. Max - yes, I agree with your reading of the 7 July Order in that the green, yellow ochre and rust brown colours are a suggestion as being suitable for 'this time' - ie the summer. The Order clearly stipulates that 'The choice of colours is to be purposely changed according to the time of year. One of the three colours must match the basic colour found in the region of fighting.' That final requirement that 'One of the three colours must match the basic colour found in the region of fighting' is interesting in that it gives a very wide leeway to the troops on the ground to devise a colour scheme based on the natural conditions pertaining locally. And this caveat makes it clear that the German high command is placing more importance on the influence of local landscape colours prevailing in each unit's location in any given season than in trying to establish any uniformity of colour schemes across the army as a whole. Another point worth bearing in mind, however, is that the Ludendorff Order of 7 July 1918, and the authorization for factory painted camo helmets of 15 July 1918, come just under and just over four months before the Armistice - there never was, then, a full year of evolving seasons for the Stahlhelm's officially sanctioned camouflage finishes to change with the seasons in the various locations where they were fighting. I'd suggest that this is why the majority of surviving examples seem to fit in with the suggested summer scheme of the July 1918 Order - they just hadn't been changed as a priority by most units before the Armistice came into effect. Another point of interest in the 7 July Order is the paint requirements it gives for painting each batch of 1,000 helmets in the suggested summer camouflage scheme: 5 kilograms each of ochre, green and brown; 2 kilograms of black. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 21 October , 2007 Share Posted 21 October , 2007 OK, so how does that explain the two different colour schemes that I have? Are they both Summer? Or is the R/H one perhaps Autumn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 21 October , 2007 Share Posted 21 October , 2007 OK, so how does that explain the two different colour schemes that I have? Are they both Summer? Or is the R/H one perhaps Autumn? Morning Guy! Remember, the July 7 1918 Order is only suggesting Green/Ochre/Brown as being suitable for the current (summer) season - the overriding concern is that helmets 'must match the basic colour found in the region of fighting'. This latter stipulation gives plenty of leeway for variation, and whilst I suggested thsat the majority of surviving helmets may not have been seasonaly adjusted from their original summer camo painting in late summer 1918 by the time of the Armistice, I'm nonetheless sure that some were. In fact your two helmets look like they are painted with similar colour variants, but that one has been done in much darker tones - and this may be due to the local landscape colours in which that helmet was painted for service. Alternatively, it may represent, as you suggest, a local unit's interpretation of an autumn or winter finish done in late October/early November 1918. As to the actual design of the camo finish applied, there was clearly great local leeway allowed - especially for field-painted helmets - as the many different surviving genuine examples indicate. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 21 October , 2007 Share Posted 21 October , 2007 I don't know but they both look like the standard summer colour scheme to me - green, yellow ochre, rust brown. The different appearance is down to perhaps differing storage conditions, the one on the left showing heavy patination as the rust comes through the paint or the paint changes with age? Or maybe a varnish that has been applied by a collector. I guess the actual shade/hue of colour supplied would have varied enormously even though it may have been offficially 'yellow ochre' etc. If you look through any of Haselgroves references or even at the varied examples in this very topic you can see the variations within these three simple colours whether down to paint or age patination or other factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 21 October , 2007 Share Posted 21 October , 2007 The different appearance is down to perhaps differing storage conditions, the one on the left showing heavy patination as the rust comes through the paint or the paint changes with age? Or maybe a varnish that has been applied by a collector. Both of these suggestions would seem likely alternatives to explain the difference in appearance between Guy's two helmets to those made in my earlier post. Like you, Max, my feeling was that they are both done in similar base colours, with the one being much darkened for reasons upon which we can only speculate in as informed a way as possible. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 21 October , 2007 Share Posted 21 October , 2007 Or maybe a varnish that has been applied by a collector. Thanks Guys Max: definately no varnish! You will see quite a sheen on many original helmets I think due to 90 odd years of existence. I made this worse, by a quick 'Mr Sheen' (Furniture cleaning product of very light wax) just prior to taking the photos. One factor is that the one on the left has had 90 years of light and atmosphere exposure. The one on the right, the finish has been somewhat protected for many years by a layer of silver paint, plus then the paint removal process has cleaned it, a bit like taking the grime off an old master. They are, however, totally different colours. The base helmet colour is much darker on the dark one anyway, it is a green colour. The Right hand helmet, the base colour is a field grey. Having had another look, there are signs that the original colours of the darker one, were much brighter than they are now. It seems that if the war had lasted just that little bit longer, we would all have many more colourful variations to play with! Does anybody know why this practise did not continue into the Second World War as by 1939 all the helmets were back to Green, and this kind of pattern appears to have been dropped. I find this surprising, considering that the Germans really led the world in their use and appreciation of camoulflage. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 22 October , 2007 Share Posted 22 October , 2007 TT, Coming back to the Haselgrove books - I only had a quick flick - does volume 1 stand alone in it's structure (ie regarding the text on the history of all helmets)? I am not really too interested in Brodies so may consider just buying volume 1 for the Adrians and Stahlhelms. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 22 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2007 Hi Max, You could get away with just vol 1. The format is the same for each. Each nation is preceeded by text with a history of their helmet and its varients. By not having vol 2 you would miss Britain (60%) of that volume, America and other minor nations. Vol 1 covers Germany, France, Austria and some others. Have you got the first of these book about WW1 helmets. Came out about 4 years ago and covers Germany, Britain, France and Belgium. It has little if any text but is a great collection of pictures? They are good coffee table books and HOW can you NOT be interested in Brodies??? For info I have been a Great War helmet collector for some time now but the German Helmet has always been my fave!! Hope all is well. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 22 October , 2007 Share Posted 22 October , 2007 Hi TT, thanks for taking the time to post that - most helpful. Would like the second book but as you know they are not cheap. Like you I find Stahlhelm most interesting although I have one Brodie, one Adrian and one M16. As a general collector of all French/German/British 14-18 militaria that will have to do for me. The first one, Helmets of The First World War? - yep posted about that on the first page I think. Brilliant book, I found my copy very luckily on a US booksite when they were crazily selling new copies at about £12 - I got one and then thought to go back and buy a batch to flog on, a few days later they had all gone not surprisingly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 5 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2007 Added to my collection last week. Will post a piccie soon. Just bumping this up also as there has been some good posts on helmets recently. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 7 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2007 As promised images of the hew boy!! A cracker! Although the photo may not show it there are x 3 colours involved. I am always interested to see other examples in peoples collections. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 2 February , 2008 Share Posted 2 February , 2008 Just spotted the pics of your latest addition, TT - as you say, a cracker! Liner intact? ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 3 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2008 GAC, Yes liner (M17) intact and pads all present and correct. ET64 size and manufacturer. Hope you are well! Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 3 February , 2008 Share Posted 3 February , 2008 Well this i my pride in my collection. Its a urly M-16 helmet with Regiment and the name of the soldier inside. Only to bad that the name is hard to read. The number is on the outside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 3 February , 2008 Share Posted 3 February , 2008 The inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 3 February , 2008 Share Posted 3 February , 2008 The name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2008 Anzac 16, Nice helmet! Thanks for posting. I have checked your site out loads and noted your collection pages are not showing at the moment. When do you plan to be up and running again. Hope all is well and thanks again. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 5 February , 2008 Share Posted 5 February , 2008 Anzac that's a beauty of a helmet, well photographed - thanks for adding it to this archive! And I share your frustration over an undecipherable name - here's the one from my M17 1st Footguards-marked helmet: Anyone want to have a go at it? I think it ends with a 'b'. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 5 February , 2008 Share Posted 5 February , 2008 Anzac 16, Nice helmet! Thanks for posting. I have checked your site out loads and noted your collection pages are not showing at the moment. When do you plan to be up and running again. Hope all is well and thanks again. TT Well i have to restile my site but still haven't had the time. About the name the only thing i could get up with is "gefreiter" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzac16 Posted 5 February , 2008 Share Posted 5 February , 2008 Two more picture's One from the complete inside. And the rear nail. Its a flat one but its original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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