Baltic Submarine Crews.

[pd212]

Darren and Arabis

Having posted my mail asking for info on C class submarines in the Baltic I am embarrassed to then see your photos from North Wales source and for two of the crew lists. The latter identifying which crew members went out with the boats - a vital piece of information for the crews were accommodated on the towing tug and on cabins on the barges.

Would either or both of you be willing for me to use this information in my Dissertation? If so, would it be possible to get scans of the photos?

Many thanks for just posting them!

Pd 212

[Signals]

Pd 212 hope U are well. Yes have much on the topic, but due to viral nature of the internet I decided some time ago to stop posting information & photos. But I do help off line for sure, but mainly families. I have sent u a PM with my email so U can ask questions. Member Arabis kindly sent me the original photos which in this money hungry world was quite a wonderful gesture indeed. I still have them for my own personal use, but also gave the RNSM digital copies as I am always happy to help the home of the service. Photos are a funny thing, as I have many more of the C Class on their way to Russia, but it can be a pain sending one to someone to watch it only go viral and others not as decent as people on this forum passing them off as their own with copyright slapped on them. And I do notice other forums moderators and webmasters taking everything from the internet and posting them as their own for the object of gaining an audience for the sake of selling items. Good to know that this forum is about the men and not the money:) D

[Sepoyjack]

Hello PD212 - just in case no one else has mentioned it, you will find 42 small photos of the C class subs on there journey to the Baltic in ADM 137/1247 - Baltic British Submarines - which, if I remember rightly, also has some diaries related to this.

Good hunting!

Richard

Sorry - their not there!

[Sepoyjack]

Darren

Your work on submarine crew lists is very interesting. Is there any information that you can give me on Baltic submariners who later served in the Caspian and/ or the British mission at Siberia/ South Russia?

I'm trying to attribute the miniature medals of a DSM winner who has Baltic 1915, Baltic SM/s, Siberia 1918-19, Russia and Caspian bars on his British War Medal.

Apart from his 1914/15 trio he has two Russian medals in silver - Cross of St George and George Medal Class III. Nothing else.

I am gradually working through the submariner DSM lists, but the only Baltic to Caspian man I have located so far is James Bonham, but he is MID (and later MBE).

If I had the crew lists of - say- E1, E8, E9, E19 - I might be able to spot them in the 'general submarine DSMs' LG lists.

Many thanks for any help you can give.

Richard

[Sepoyjack]

Hello Darren

When I posted my request to you yesterday - ages after your original thread - I hadn't realised that in your thread 'Russian Medal Lists for British Submariners' you have the Russian medal lists for the crews of E1 and E9 - presumably these are in Russian (which I can read). Did you ever get any similar lists for the other E subs in the Baltic?

I'd be most grateful if you could let me have any such lists that you have, along with the crew lists of the E subs as this would help my search for my 'Caspian man' greatly.

[Guest E9 Sub]

Hi All, my grandfather Frederick Bown torpedoman served in E9 in the Baltic. I have all his papers and researched his service with help from the Submarine Museum

[Guest demhop]

Hi,

I'm new to this site but am seeking information on the crew of Submarine/ Depot Submarine E19 which I believe was under the command of Francis Cromie. I acquired, in June 2003, a Russian Icon which, from the writing on the back, was given by the crew of the Russian Depot ship, formerly the Pamiat Azova but by then the Dvina, to the E19 in April 1918 when E19 left Helsingfors where the British flotilla had been based.

I bought the Icon in a box of items in the large estate sale of an apparently eccentric spinster, Ursula Arnott, at St Briavels in the Wye Valley and I wondered if Miss Arnott might have been the daughter of one of the crew of the E19 possibly named Arnott. Any information or ideas as to how Miss Arnott acquired the icon, which is small and extremely simple in style, would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Eric Morgan

[rupertx]

There is a group for sale here to a crew member of Sub E19

 

http://www.harlandmilitaryantiques.com/ourshop/prod_6168383-Submariner-Casualty-grouping-272087-Chief-Engine-Room-Artificer-G-H-R-Hicks-RN.html

[Guest]

On 02/08/2007 at 06:19, Signals said:

Hi Colin,

On his papers does it just say E19 in August 1916? This is when the base became it's own and called E19. There were only 5 signalman over there as they mainly used the Russian signalman. His name was given to me as on E8 via the Royal Navy Sub Museum. The signalman on E1, E9, are listed on Russian Medal lists while E18's and E19's are also confirmed. Young was definatley not on E19. Was there a Russian medal with your set?

The Royal Navy Sub Mueseum have a photo of tthe 5 signaman and four telegraphists together in Russia.

Cheers DB.

Hi, I realise the above was posted over a decade ago so this is a very long shot but I thought I would give it a go and maybe someone can help me understand.

I have a group I only recently purchased being a WW1Trio  with LSGC to George Henry Reeves Hicks  No. 272087 also C/272087 rank is  CHIEF E.R.A.

His papers have shown similar to the above,

 

     Dolphin -7th Sept 15 to 26th Sept 15

Maidstone- 27th Sept 15 

Maidstone -1st April 16 to 3rd Aug 16

           E19 -   4th Aug 16 to 14th Jan 18

     Dolphin - 18th Jan 18 to 19th March 18

    Fearless -

 

what I am wondering is was this fellow in the Baltic at all because as far as I can tell the Maidstone wasn’t in the Baltic ?

And if in Aug 16 the base became E19, were was the base or what was the base ?

Did  George Hicks actually ever serve on any Baltic based submarine?

sorry if I sound confused but I am pretty baffled by this.

Any help to explain the above would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards, Darrell 

[Guest]

On 03/09/2017 at 02:39, rupertx said:

There is a group for sale here to a crew member of Sub E19

 

http://www.harlandmilitaryantiques.com/ourshop/prod_6168383-Submariner-Casualty-grouping-272087-Chief-Engine-Room-Artificer-G-H-R-Hicks-RN.html

Hi, yes I just bought the group and then came across these posts so I’m asking for a bit of help in trying to understand his papers.

kind regards, Darrell 

[LKD]

One of my ancestors Frank Dunsford joined the Royal Navy in Feb 1913 and served until 1922 on various vessels, but right in the middle of his service record is ref to "Sub E19" on which he served from 4 Aug 1916 until 14 Jan 1918. Copy of record attached. The other vessels look like they may have been connected to the submarine "world" as they are all such things as 'submarine depot ships' etc. I know nothing about submariners in WW1 and I'm trying to understand what the record is telling me. Is it likely he would have been on depot ships not on active service for so long and only in action for that one period of about 18 months?

 

ADM-188-902-18000.pdf

Edited 17 March , 2021 by LKD

[The Treasurer]

4 hours ago, LKD said:

One of my ancestors Frank Dunsford joined the Royal Navy in Feb 1913 and served until 1922 on various vessels, but right in the middle of his service record is ref to "Sub E19" on which he served from 4 Aug 1916 until 14 Jan 1918. Copy of record attached. The other vessels look like they may have been connected to the submarine "world" as they are all such things as 'submarine depot ships' etc. I know nothing about submariners in WW1 and I'm trying to understand what the record is telling me. Is it likely he would have been on depot ships not on active service for so long and only in action for that one period of about 18 months?

 

ADM-188-902-18000.pdf 805.48 kB · 1 download

Your relative was posted to submarines from his time on Dolphin in April 1915. All of the vessels listed from this point are submarine depot ships and the crew were borne on these for their pay. The actual submarine served on is noted in brackets, but often not completed: C.32, E.19, L.16 etc. Prior to 1915 he was on the battlecruiser, Indefatigable. C.32 was in the Dover Flotilla. E.19 served in the Baltic with the Russian Fleet - your relative joined her on completion and she went to the Baltic in September 1915. Good at his job too - superior rating for ability on his subs. I could go on......

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 March , 2021 by The Treasurer

[LKD]

Actually Mr Treasurer I would have loved you to go on.......Thank you so much for what you have told me, I am totally fascinated as this is all new to me, never had a submariner in the family before even tough I've been researching thousands of them for 20+ years. I was (rather ignorantly, apologies) curious - but clearly insufficiently so! - about the numbers in brackets but didn't pursue it and had absolutely no idea they would have been more subs. The only sub I'm not clear on is the last one listed, against HMS Lucia - do you agree this is H29?

[The Treasurer]

2 hours ago, LKD said:

Actually Mr Treasurer I would have loved you to go on.......Thank you so much for what you have told me, I am totally fascinated as this is all new to me, never had a submariner in the family before even tough I've been researching thousands of them for 20+ years. I was (rather ignorantly, apologies) curious - but clearly insufficiently so! - about the numbers in brackets but didn't pursue it and had absolutely no idea they would have been more subs. The only sub I'm not clear on is the last one listed, against HMS Lucia - do you agree this is H29?

Yes the other two post-war boats are L.56 and H.29.  L.16 was a 10th Flotilla boat based on Lucia. I think the previous line may show L.11 or L.16 faintly. Both were 10th Flotilla boats. 10th Flotilla was based in the Tees during the war doing North Sea patrols. There are a number of good books you can pick up second-hand about the Baltic Flotilla - Baltic Assignment by Michael Wilson for example (Bookfinder will have some).

Edited 18 March , 2021 by The Treasurer

[LKD]

Thank you for all your help

[The Treasurer]

On 17/03/2021 at 19:42, The Treasurer said:

Your relative was posted to submarines from his time on Dolphin in April 1915. All of the vessels listed from this point are submarine depot ships and the crew were borne on these for their pay. The actual submarine served on is noted in brackets, but often not completed: C.32, E.19, L.16 etc. Prior to 1915 he was on the battlecruiser, Indefatigable. C.32 was in the Dover Flotilla. E.19 served in the Baltic with the Russian Fleet - your relative joined her on completion and she went to the Baltic in September 1915. Good at his job too - superior rating for ability on his subs. I could go on......

 

 

 

 

 

On 18/03/2021 at 10:53, LKD said:

Thank you for all your help

LKD - Just a correction to the info I gave you above. Your relative would actually have stayed on the crew roster of C.32 throughout to June 1918 - the boat was transferred from Dover to the Baltic in August 1916, coming under HMS Maidstone as part of 8th Flotilla for administration. I forgot when originally replying that E.19 became the notional administrative depot for the Baltic submarines in 1916.

[LKD]

Thanks Mr Treasurer, appreciated

[Sepoyjack]

Hi!

Your info about Maidstone is very interesting and may help to explain my own quandary. I have the service records of several submariner DSM holders who I am trying to place in the Baltic in 1915.

One of them (226545 A J Burtenshaw is listed as you describe (Maidstone 16.6.14-3.8.16 with 9(E9) below, and then Sub E19 4.8.16-16.1.17).

Others have nothing in brackets after 'Maidstone' e.g.: -

175034 G D Thomas is listed as Maidstone 16-6.14-3.8 and then Sub E19 4.8.16-14.1.18. He was gazetted as DSM on 20 Jun 16 and his medal is engraved E8)

272395 T W Collis is listed as Maidstone 18.6.14 - 3.8.14 and then Sub E 19 4.8.16 - 9.6.17. He was gazetted as DSM on 19 Nov 1915 and his medal is engraved E 9)

There is a clutch of others who have nothing in brackets after a stint in Maidstone before joining E19 on 4.8.1916.

Two questions emerge:

- Should I assume that the RN clerks were serially lax in neglecting to insert a sub name in brackets after 'Maidstone' 

-Or that there was a policy of not listing sub names until 4 Aug 1916 when many appear to have joined E 19?

Certainly, Thomas and Collis listed above received DSMs while still apparently on Maidstone (which I understand was at Harwich throughout the war) on different submarines that the E 19 shown from 4.8.16.

Can you add to this please?

Many thanks

 

[The Treasurer]

The vessel that the crewman is listed under is their depot ship. Maidstone served as the principal depot ship for the Harwich Flotilla throughout the war. The Flotilla was the 8th until August 1916, then was renumbered 9th. All of the boats serving in the Baltic still came under the Maidstone Flotilla until August 1916 on detached service.

In August 1916 A Baltic Flotilla was constituted. All of the boats in the Baltic had their crews transferred to the notional depot ship for the Flotilla, which was the E.19. The actual depot ship was provided by the Russian Navy. The listing of E.19 as the depot does not mean the individual was serving on it, although some obviously were.

The actual boat crewman served on is sometimes noted after their depot ship - but in many cases is not, although it is usually noted for officers.

So in short a crew record often does not tell you what boat a man served on - but it does tell you what Flotilla they were in.

I should add that Thomas was mentioned as a member of his crew several times by the commander of E.8, Goodhart, in his diary. He also mentions Burtenshaw as crew on E.9.

Edited 14 September , 2021 by The Treasurer

[Sepoyjack]

Thank heavens for that! I have been sinking in the confusion...

Very clear. MOST grateful.

Are you aware of any crew lists for E.8 or E.19?

Meantime, I will look for Goodhart's diary.

[wrightdw]

I am looking for information on Able Seaman E. Hamphreys who was crew of E9 in the Baltic early in the war.

Specifically interested in what Russian decorations he was awarded?

I don't have a service number or first name and couldn't find him in National Archives Royal Navy ratings' service records 1853-1928.

It doesn't appear that Imperial Russian awards for the Baltic Submarines were gazetted much like the 1916 Jutland awards.

If anyone can provide more information on him I would appreciate it.

[horatio2]

Could it be this rating?   -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6720273     He was borne on the books of MAIDSTONE from June 1914 to August 1916 as List 12 for a man seerving in a (submarine) tender but no submarine is named.  Awarded DSM LG 29374 - 19 NOVEMBER 1915 but name mis-spelled HUMPHRIES.

[wrightdw]

On 03/08/2007 at 18:31, Signals said:

Hi All,

here's some to get your teeth into, these are crew of E9 who are on the Russian Medal list. I only have four listed with official numbers at this stage so i'l be interested if anyone has the others numbers.

I have never seen Ampleford attached to E18 so this is quite interesting. Was he only on her for a short time? I believe there i still someone missing from E18's original crew, can't find him though. P.O. John Ryan was part of spare crew, he went to E18 late 1915/eary 1916 and replaced? Yes put Baltic Assignment photos on, maybe some people can I.D. some photos.

E9'S ratings with Russian Medals.

...

> 8. E. Hamphreys, Able Seaman.

...

 

He is recorded as 'Hamphreys' in this post from 2007 on this thread.

I would be interested in the 'Russian Medal List' - possibly an ADM file?

 

[The Treasurer]

The Russian award awarded British ratings in the Baltic was the St. Georges Cross 4th Class. Not to be confused with the Order of St. George awarded to officers.