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Remembered Today:

Baltic Submarine Crews.


Signals

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Hi Darren

Yes please i would like the company name,as you say it could answer the

question. is there anything i should or not menion when writing ?.

Colin

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Hi Darren,

Thank you for burning the mid-night oil re. the crew lists for C 26 & C 35. Your keyboard must be in near melt down by now. It`s been most enjoyable & I have learnt a lot about these pictures from your in-depth knowledge of these submarines.

Regards,

ARABIS.

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Hi Colin/Arabis,

first to yours Colin, it's taken me a bit of time to fnd this but i think i have located who he used, he went with a company called STILLWELL but then he wrote this on the 30-6-1916, `I find HOLTS' are agents for Maidstone and Waistell has sent out forms for me so shall cancell Stillwell.' Made out PRIZE BOUNTY CLAIMS during day.' He wrote a letter to Stillwell on the 2-7-1916 cancelling their apponitment. On the 20-11-1916 Goodhart wrote this, `Hear Prinz Adalbert award out, 3000 pounds. ' Not long before he was killed Goodhart wrote this on the 15-1-1917, `Wrote to bank to get 500 pounds of new war loan with Adalbert money when it comes. Wrote to accountant General re Prize Bounty.'[/i]

Hope this helps, there are many ways of finding out info, this just one of them so if you do have luck digging this up i would love to see it, they all would have rceived around 250 to 300 pounds each, quite a huge sum back then.

Arabis, more of a thankyou to you for sharing the photos. The owner may not have taken these photos himself as you can see some are already in books so they more than likely took copies of ones featuring their boat or themselves. When you read Goodhart's diary you'll see that he continually took photos along with some other Officers, so crew member could ask him for copies. I still will confirm some details for you of some of the photos.

Cheers Darren.

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Hi Arabis,

just a quick one but for a final confimation on your E class boats they are, E19 beside Dvina, then E8, E9 and outbord is E1 with a rear firing gun, and they are all facing the same direction. The shot of E8's gun seems to be taken at this time as well so you can translate that into the same orderof subs from the Dvina shot. You'll notice E8 is a lighter colour than the others.

Colin, i have two Russian lists of medals awared to the crews of E1 and E9, unfortunately there isn't one for E8, E18 and E19.

Cheers DB.

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Hi Darren

Sounds interesting ,can i be cheecky and ask for a copy please ?.

Colin :rolleyes:

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Hi Colin,

on the E18 thread you started i put down my email address, drop me a line, i will send them to you then. You just don't trust the Russian spelling.

Cheers DB.

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Hi All,

just a quick question but has anyone seen any medical records for those who served in the Baltic? The sub Museum has part of the diary of Staff Surgeon Hole, but this doesn't cover or name anyone.

Also is anyone have a contact or know what to do when looking up Russian personal serving with the British? Three were killed on E18, Lt Polycarpov and an unknown signalman and Telegraphist.

Cheers DB.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi All,

i have another name of a sailor from the Baltic but i don't have any details on him. On the 9th October 1917 Commander Cromie wrote that Lt Tod of C26 left for England and was escorting a Stoker Baxter home, who had fought with a Russian and was sentenced to 90 days in the cells. Does anyone know who Baxter was and which boat he was on.

Cheers DB.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dear All

I am having some trouble with a PO J.F.Potter 202457: who was on

C32 from 17th September 1913 until 19 July 1916 ,when he transfered to

E19 he was still on this Submarine until January 1918. I believe that E19

became the Depot Ship in August 1916 ,so would this mean that Potter

served on the Submarine rather than the Depot ?

Colin :unsure:

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Hi Colin,

if you go by the dates that Potter has E19 listed it should in reality be a transfer to the submarine E19 and not the base. All the crews papers changed over to the depot of E19 on the 4th August 1916. Unless there is some mistake in the dates. Do you ahve his actual number and papers?

My previous post of Baxter, i have found him but no idea what boat he was on, maybe a C class, his number is K15807, first name Bertie.

Also does anyone know of a Hookey or Bunting of E19, the submarine.

Kind regards,

Darren.

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Colin / Darren, re your POTTER postings ;

POTTER JOHN FRANCIS PO TGM

P/ 202457 NE RN NE 010713

TC 130701 DOLPHIN ARROGANT

C32 160720 MAIDSTONE

C32 160801 E19

SC 180115 DOLPHIN

LENT VERNON 180223 TGM CSE

SC 180830

H9 180831 ALECTO ADAMANT

ADDL 190118

E52 190226 MAIDSTONE DOLPHIN

ADDL 190303

H32 190304 VICKERS BARROW

H32 190704 MAIDSTONE

VICTORY FOR G.S. 3/11/19 AWO 2924/19

KOKO Sadsac DAF

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Hi Colin,

this may help you find details of signalman Young of E8 and whether he recieved a Russian Medal. Not sure of the contents of these items as i have never seen them but they could lead you somewhere else. Basically if anyone has seen these before do they contain a crew list of whom recieved the Bounties?

Hope they help, Darren.

Admiralty, and Ministry of Defence, Navy Department: Correspondence and Papers ADM 1/8444/5

Award of Prize Bounty - Submarine Service. Award of Prize Bounty - Submarine Service Admiralty, and Ministry of Defence, Navy Department: Correspondence and Papers ORIGINAL SERIES (3rd group): 1914-1934 Papers registered in 1916 The National Archives, Date: 1916.

Queen's Proctor: Prize and Prize Bounty Cases, Decrees and Affidavits TS 13/798/

Writ No. 1651 Submarines E.4, E.5.,E.6,E.7,E.8,E.9 . Writ No. 1651 Submarines E.4, E.5, E.6, E.7, E.8, E.9 The National Archives, Kew Date: 1917.Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives

Queen's Proctor: Prize and Prize Bounty Cases, Decrees and Affidavits TS 13/798/

Writ No. 1133 Submarine E.9. Writ No. 1133 Submarine E.9 The National Archives, Kew Date: 1916.

Queen's Proctor: Prize and Prize Bounty Cases, Decrees and Affidavits TS 13/798/

Writ No. 1283 Submarine E.8. Writ No. 1283 Submarine E.8 The National Archives, Kew Date: 1916.

Queen's Proctor: Prize and Prize Bounty Cases, Decrees and Affidavits TS 13/798/

Writ No. 1568 Submarine E. 9. Writ No. 1568 Submarine E. 9 The National Archives, Kew Date: 1916.

Queen's Proctor: Prize and Prize Bounty Cases, Decrees and Affidavits TS 13/798/

Writ No. 1179 Submarine E.19. Writ No. 1179 Submarine E.19 The National Archives, Kew Date: 1916.

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Darren, Hooky could be naval slang for a killick or leading hand, Bunting short for Bunting ******..i.e.a signalman.

Cheers, Stan

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Hi Stan,

i had some thought that those names could be something other than crews surnames as they don't appear on any lists i have. The term is used by Stoker Holmes, in his diary, of E19 in relation to men going on board the Swedish merchantman Nike armed with rifles and taking the ship as a prize. So thankyou for your explanation, he spells it as Hookey.

Cheers DB.

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Hi All,

i have been doing some work on how the crews from the Baltic returned home. The main group left in January 1918. They arrived in Murmansk, embarked and departed for home on the 14th January. They travelled on HMS Andes, an armed merchant cruiser, via Scapa Flow, Lock Ewe and they finally disembarked in the Clyde on the 21st January 1918. The crews papers have E19 on the 14th Jan and HMS Dolphin on the 15th Jan.

Other groups began departing from the end of January 1917 and through the year of 1917 other groups left for home. Does anyone out there have any information, be it diary notes or anything else, that can shed any light on how and te exact dates on when they left, what ships they went on or when they arrived back in the U.K? This also includes the care and maintenance party after the subs were scuttled in April 1918. On the other hand does anyone have any information on how new groups of rating were arriving in the Baltic from England from September 1915?

Cheers DB.

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  • 5 years later...

Dear all,

With apologies for coming rather late to this fascinating thread, I wonder whether anybody can help me track down an Estonian officer, Otto Arthur Grant, who seems to have served on C 35 - possibly as local liaison. He seems to have volunteered from that submarine to bring HMS C 26 out from the Gulf of Riga to Finland. He was also involved in the scuttling of the submarines in 1918 - and appears to have been sent to Petrograd by Captain Cromie to scuttle some British ships there, escaping shortly before Cromie was killed. Subsequently he served on HMS Glory as a Lieutenant RNR - but I have been unable to discover more of his naval career.

Cheers

James

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I can't find an Otto Arthur Grant: but oddly enough HO 334/225/49953 in the National Archives is a [Home Office] Naturalisation Certificate to an Otto Ferdinand Grant from Estonia, resident in Cove, Dunbartonshire. Certificate AZ49953 issued 31 December 1948.

Do you know a precise date for your Otto Grant's service on GLORY? If so I'll look him up in the Navy List.

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Darren / Stan, re postings 111 / 114 Bunts - `Bunting ******' - could this BUNT be the answer ??

BUNT FREDERICK ARTHUR AB ST D/J 12342

NE RN 241194 JS 081215

TC 151208 DOLPHIN

160125 ARROGANT

C32 160720 MAIDSTONE

C32 160801 E19

SC 180115 DOLPHIN

K8 180212 FEARLESS INCONSTANTVIVID

GENERAL SERVICE 090520 SENIOR IN RATING 210314

AB 150618 LS C S EXPIRES 241124

ADM 188 / 671 P.o.B ; Lanteglos Cornwall

Sadsac

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Hi Sadsac,

no Stan was correct with Post #114, they were referring to Bunting as E19's signalman when they captured the Merchant ships in the Baltic as he was put on board with his telesopic flags subsituted for a 303 rifle, they were using a Ruski Signalman so the British Signalman was free for such a duty on board a prize vessel).

But your man Bunt, did not have him:)

I will look up Otto Grant when i get the chance, HMS Glory was the transistion point for all drafts coming to and from the Baltic for the submarines once the Petrograd/Murmansk train line was opened up at the start of 1917.

D

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No sign of Otto Grant in Navy List for 1917 and I have checked RNR, RNVR and regular listings. Any chance he was still using an Estonian surname?

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Thanks everybody - interestingly Otto's Estonian name actually was Otto Arthur Grant (between the wars he was a diplomat (Estonian) and I don't think at any point he changed his name). Sadly I don't think he is the Ferdinand mentioned above. I managed to find him in the 1918 Navy List - under HMS Glory - and have the date of his commission from the Gazette. I have a suspicion his family were ship owners but I have no idea how he came to join the RN and serve in submarines - there is an interesting story here I think, particularly in light of what was going on around the Baltic at the time.

Any further thoughts would be most welcome!

All the best,

J.

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We-elll... here are the Estonian State Archives... http://riigi.arhiiv.ee/riaeng/about-us/

Or it might be worth contacting the European Studies Centre at St Antony's College, Oxford (specialise in Eastern Europe) http://www.sant.ox.ac.uk/esc/

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ALL - my Post of 119 `Bunting ******' which has been further posted as `Bunting ******' is not a `rude' word as may seem - it is a copy of the post 114 by STAN i.e a `Bunting ******' i.e Signalman.

Just wanted to point out that T'aint a `Rude-un'.

Sadsac

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  • 6 months later...

Hello All

For my Masters degree in Maritime History Dissertation I am investigating the towing of the four C class submarines from the UK to Archangel and their subsequent loading on barges and transportation along the rivers, canals and lakes of Northern Russia to Petrograd and their employment in support of the Russians.

If anyone has any information on this operation, crew anecdotes/lists or photographs I would be very, very grateful - there are many gaps in my knowledge. Full acknowledgement will be given of course.

I am, by the way, an ex submariner and doing this work as a hobby in my retirement! It's fascinating but hard work!

BTW I am also in close touch with George Malcolmson at the RNSMM in Gosport.

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