Drill halls

[Guest Sgt Fieldsend]

Hi Graham.

Checked, cant locate this one.

There is a Drill Hall situated at Birdwell. Near Barnsley. South Yorkshire.

Recently part of the building has been taken over by a commercial company, but the part remaing is used by the Army Cadets.

It used to be the local recruiting drill hall for the Yorks & Lancaster Regiment.

Regards.

Brian.

Hi Brian

My name is Tony Fieldsed and I am the detachment commander for the Army Cadets at Birdwell. We no longer use the any part of the drill hall on Sheffield Road, it is now hair and beauty salon called Rain but has previoulsy been used as a hire shop, army surplus shop and the rear part of the building was used for many years as Birdwell Gun Club. We have a new purpose built building at the side of the old drill hall.

I would be more than happy to take you some up to date photo's if you would like that or try and get any info if that would help

Regards

Tony

[Graeme Fisher]

Hi Brian

My name is Tony Fieldsed and I am the detachment commander for the Army Cadets at Birdwell. We no longer use the any part of the drill hall on Sheffield Road, it is now hair and beauty salon called Rain but has previoulsy been used as a hire shop, army surplus shop and the rear part of the building was used for many years as Birdwell Gun Club. We have a new purpose built building at the side of the old drill hall.

I would be more than happy to take you some up to date photo's if you would like that or try and get any info if that would help

Regards

Tony

Hello Tony

Whatever info, pictures, anything, you can lay your hands on is infinitely valuable!

I'm so grateful you've offered. Merely in the introductory paragraph you've told us a lot; this all adds value and depth to the project.

I'm quite impressed that an ACF officer has become involved in this. Given the number of ACF and Territorial sites that have a century of history, there has been little input from the military, especially in the TA's centenary year. I have huge admiration for both the TA and the ACF; my daughter is a cadet, and has benefitted greatly from her membership.

Tony, I'd be grateful for whatever you can offer, and if you can tap up your colleagues in other locations, or flag us up to the heirarchy, that would be great.

Thanks for joining the project

Graeme

[Charles Fair]

There is a rather useful article Establishing London's Territorial County Associations by KW Mitchinson in the May 2007 (Vol. 8 No. 1) edition of Firestep - The Magazine of the WFA's London Branch. (ISSN 1475-7761).

It says something about the challenges facing the TF when taking over drill halls from the old Volunteer units. Each TF association appointed a secretary and a staff to administer the affairs of the TF association.

The workload faced by a secretary and his staff could be massive. .... Futhermore, in addition to trying to induce the Volunteers to transfer to the TF and assess the state and number of inherited uniforms, kit and equipment, the secretary and his staff had to make and early survey of what buildings and premises, and their status, the association ahd on its books. Many of the former Volunteer buildings were very dilapidated, were in the wrong place for the new companies or batteries or were hired on such complicated terms and leases that numerous financial and legal difficulties had to be resolved before units could occupy them.

Wherever possible, the Army Council wanted associations to take over existing drill halls and, if necessary, repair and extend them. Buildings were also surveyed with a view to their potential earning capacity from sub-letting and whether they could easily be adapted as the headquarters of more than one unit. Those buildings which were deemed to be unsuitable or in the wrong place were handed over to the War Office for disposal; similiarly, those that were assessed as being in need of such extensive repair that it would be cheaper to relinquish them and build new were also rejected. Essex Association seems initially to have taken over a mere eight buildings and ranges while Surrey accepted thirty-five. The Surrey's survey concluded that the majority of the inherited buildings required extensive repairs but in place of the £5,906 its surveyor estimated would be needed to complete the work, the War Office offered only £1,500. Of the thity-five buildings, only twenty were judged to require no further legal moves to complete the transfer; unfortunately for the remainder, attempts to sort out the intricacies of tenure were frequently made more difficult by the status of the properties. Some buildings were privately owned, others were administered by trustees, many had been built by public subscription and their ownership was now open to dispute and others had become limited companies.* Associations' solicitors began a mammoth task but to ease the transfer of those buildings which were required to accommodate the limited number of units recruited across county boundaries, Kent came to formal agreements with the Sussex and County of London Associations. The County and City Associations opted to form a joint committee, which also consulted with the Middlesex Association, to determine without acrimony the allocation of old Volunteer accommodation across London.**

* When the Surrey Association wanted to buy Chertsey drill hall, for example, no decision could be reached because insufficient shareholders turned up at the meeting to form a quorum. Surrey Record Office 608/4/1, 25 August 1908; 608/2/1, 8 February 1909

** Kent Record Office MD/TA 3/1, 10 April 1908; Guildhall 12.606/1, 14 July 1908

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there Graeme and Gwyn,

Have you got any location details of any drill halls in Leeds as on the 1894 old O/S map on line it is showing a Drill ground and in a previous issue it shows a Drill Hall at Clay Pit Lane, I have a very good idea where it could have been as the whole area was demolished back in the 60's to make way for the Merrion Centre.

Just out of curiocity yeterday I was looking for some CWGC graves in Dewsbury Cemetery and came across the grave of the instructor of The Dewsbury Volunteer Rifle Corps. 1873, which of course where the forerunners of our TA and New Armies.

Cheers Roger.

[Graeme Fisher]

Charles

The article you've shared with us proves the difficult transaction between the Volunteers and the Terriers.

What many people don't realise is the fact that many Rifle Volunteers' drill halls (and, indeed, those of the artillery, engineers, medics et al ) were built by public subscription. Somewhere down the line, these buildings were taken over by the War Office, and assumed to be Crown Property.

Where did this leave the subscribers or shareholders, and would they still have claim on the leisure centres/telephone exchanges/sorting offices that now occupy the plots? Or the houses built on the sites?

It would be interesting to see an original share certificate for one of these buildings.

Graeme

[Graeme Fisher]

Roger

Leeds has a number of locations.

Claypit lane was the home of Gibraltar Barracks, demolished in the 60s, I believe.

Artillery had premises in Fenton street; the medics were at Harewood Barracks on Woodhouse Lane. This wasn't a purpose built job, but a converted house, long gone.

Carlton barracks became home to the Leeds Rfles, after a period at the roundhouse on Wellington road.

There is also reference to the Brudenel social club using a drill hall.

Graeme

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there Graeme,

Thanks for that, out of them there is only the roundhouse still standing and now used as a vehicle hire depot.

I had read about something being on Fenton Street which is now part of the University site, I know one of the higher ups in the Estates Office there and I will ask if the building is still there.

Also about Brudenell Social Club I found and mentioned it to Gwyn a while ago, there is no sign of where it was now as when they built the club they built it further back from the roadSo removing any trace apart from the picture of the old Drill Hall cum Club, i think I found it on a site called Leodis.

Cheers Roger.

[kevinrowlinson]

Hi Graeme,

I do not know whether you are aware of the A2A site, http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp .

If you enter "drill hall" and "drill halls" in the search engine there may be something there that could be of interest, and anyone living near to the relevant record office may be able to post the results. Of course one could enter anything of interest and see what's available out there apart from the Nat. Archives.

Kevin

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there Graeme & Gwyn,

There are some fabulous photo's of Fenton Street Drill Hall Leeds on a site called, www.leodis.net when you enter the home page you will see a box entitled "Terms", just put Fenton Street in and hey presto you are there, you will have to trawl through them about 25/26 of them.

Cheers Roger.

[Rich QDG]

Hi all here is a link to a request for info on the Port Talbot Drill Hall in Forge Road, Port Talbot.

This xqdg's first post which he placed in Units and Formations, I think there will be a lot of interest here, I believe it is more the history and name of the place first units later.

 

 

[Dragon]

I tried to reply to that post but as I have very little idea what the abbreviations mean, having no military background whatsoever, I gave up. I'm afraid that the title of that thread is a complete mystery to people like me.

If he has not already done so, your friend will find Kelly's Directory, 1895, quoted on our website, http://www.drillhalls.org.

'Here are the head quarters of the F and G Companies of the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Welsh Regiment. The Drill Hall will hold about 1,000 persons, besides being used by the volunteers it is let for concerts, entertainments &c.' (Kelly, 1895)

Historical data on Welsh drill halls is very difficult to track down, partly because some of the records were deliberately scrapped and partly because directories like Kelly's treat Wales very superficially. There are some drill halls which are recorded as simply existing in a town (no address) and many which are not mentioned at all. I am sorry to say that the records of some of the regiments are plain wrong. We have found several drill halls which officials claim to have been demolished, but are still in use of one sort or another.

Your best best is probably the local newspaper. If you know when it was built (look for a foundation stone or for dates on utilities like drain pipes) you can go straight to the newspaper archives and look up the papers around that date. Opening is usually about a year or 18 months after that. Newspapers are usually on fiche in the larger local libraries. If you're lucky the newspaper will have reported this in great detail because such openings were very important in the community at the time. I am not sure which language you need, though.

Alternatively, look on old maps to see when the drill hall appears. If, say, if is not there on 1885 maps but is there in 1890, you have a window which narrows down your scope. However, drill halls are not always marked, and sometimes you may just see a building with the right footprint. Old maps are in libraries, but there are some online at http://www.old-maps.co.uk.

If you want to trawl through historical directories, try http://www.historicaldirectories.org. I would add that Graeme did this exhaustively when building up his database. If you're not sure how to use the directories, we can explain in more detail. Libraries often carry copies of the street directories but what exactly is recorded about an address is very variable.

Hope this helps.

We would be very grateful for sight of any information which you have and photos of the building (or what exists of it now) would be especially welcome. The Wales entries will be revised and developed in the future; they were part of the very first upload.

Gwyn

[Rich QDG]

Gwyn, the origional reference came up when I did a Google search for Port Talbot Drill Hall and came up with,

http://www.drillhalls.org/TownPortTalbot.htm

RHA is Royal Horse Artillery the Glamorgan RHA I suspect were a Militia/TA unit, as it mentions HQ, Battery & Ammunition Column Glamorgan RHA I suspect there may have been no guns on strength.

Dave is going to check out the church next door for any reference to the drill hall as it is around 150 years old, he is also following up at the local council an newspapers, he is going to take pics from every angle.

This I think is his first attempt at anything like this so any encouragement apreciated.

I am pretty useless for local stuff as I live in the Philippines.

Drill Halls well known to me in 1978/80 were Prestigne, Hay on Wye and Llandridnod Wells when I was a recruiting Sgt working out of Hereford, visited the Cadet units there on a monthly basis, snared 1 from Hay and 1 from Llandridnod Well, both went on to be WO's.

[Dragon]

Snared? WO?

Graeme knows the military stuff. I am merely the office junior.

I think Llandrindod is under threat from a major supermarket according to some communications I had with the local authority in the spring. I haven't yet followed up its fate.

Has Dave contacted poeple like the local history society (if there is one)? It might also be worth talking to Glamorgan Record Office. http://www.glamro.gov.uk/About%20us.html Look also at the links on the Online Archives tab. (Bear in mind that the area name is the address which it was a hundred years ago, ie Glamorgan.)

For pictures, most record offices have a collection of images which often include the drill hall.

English local authorities are supposed to maintain an Historic Environment Record (HER); I don't know about Welsh ones. If there is one, and the drill hall is considered of interest, it ought to be on that with some information about it. If there is an HER, and the drill hall is interesting and isn't on it, then ask them to consider including it. (We have had some success in ensuring at least one local authority's HER is correct.) Not all HERs are online or complete.

I am a bit pressed for time at the moment, but I hope this will do to be going on with. I'll have a think. I'm pretty familiar with Port Talbot.

Gwyn

[Rich QDG]

Gwyn

Snared = recruited I 1 from each of those places, sorry missed Knighton that was another.

When I moved out here in 2003 Glamorgan still existed, I was born in Boverton then moved to Llantwit Major untill I joined 1 Welch in 1960, a whole mile in 17 and a half years. That was East Glamorgan

Dave is currently as far as I know contacting local authorities Church and newspapers.

Only passed through Port talbot in a Austin Champ following the breakdown truck towing my armoured car to the workshops in Bridgend with hydraulic failure, departing Castle Martin Ranges.

Snared? WO?

Graeme knows the military stuff. I am merely the office junior.

I think Llandrindod is under threat from a major supermarket according to some communications I had with the local authority in the spring. I haven't yet followed up its fate.

Has Dave contacted poeple like the local history society (if there is one)? It might also be worth talking to Glamorgan Record Office. http://www.glamro.gov.uk/About%20us.html Look also at the links on the Online Archives tab. (Bear in mind that the area name is the address which it was a hundred years ago, ie Glamorgan.)

For pictures, most record offices have a collection of images which often include the drill hall.

English local authorities are supposed to maintain an Historic Environment Record (HER); I don't know about Welsh ones. If there is one, and the drill hall is considered of interest, it ought to be on that with some information about it. If there is an HER, and the drill hall is interesting and isn't on it, then ask them to consider including it. (We have had some success in ensuring at least one local authority's HER is correct.) Not all HERs are online or complete.

I am a bit pressed for time at the moment but I hope this will do to be going on with. I'll have a think. I'm pretty familiar with Port Talbot having had a relationship with someone there years ago!

Gwyn

[Rich QDG]

The Drill Hall in Hay on Wye as I remember was a 2 storey building, offices stores etc on the ground floor and drill/parade area upstairs, it also had cellars for stores and I think at one time the armoury, all sorts of long forgotton but retained items since they were on some book somewhere.

I could usualy find the County Quartermaster on the premises, Maj Jones a local magistrate, the detachment commander was the local police Sgt, the police station was maybe 50 feet from the drill hall, no pics I am afraid.

[Charles Fair]

Graeme and Gwyn,

Bill Mitchinson has just written a rather superb book "England's Last Hope: The Territorial Force, 1908-14 " which has just been published by Palgrave Macmillan. (272 pages ISBN-10: 0230574548 and ISBN-13: 978-0230574540)

This is the dust-jacket blurb from the publisher's website:

England's Last Hope tells the story of the early years of the Territorial Force, Britain's part-time volunteer home defence army. Despite public ridicule and contempt, many thousands of largely working men gave their time and enthusiasm to create and sustain a force which they believed would be capable of hurling any putative invader from Britain’s shores. This is the first study of how the county associations raised, clothed, trained and administered the auxiliary during the crucial years of its development in the years preceding the Great War. A combination of previously underused national and local sources underpins an examination of the creation and character of the county associations and the problems and frustrations thrown at them by an often hostile and unsympathetic War Office. It looks at the frequently bizarre experiences of the mobilization period during the summer of 1914 and demonstrates how, despite Kitchener's controversial decision not to use the associations as the vehicle with which to expand the field army, the Territorials played an essential role in raising and equipping the New Army.

The blurb on Amazon says that "it contains a large number of fascinating and seldom-seen photographs". There are a few (c. 25 or 30) but they are printed into the normal paper that the text is on so the quality is not the highest. This is my only real criticism of the book.

I will write a review in due course. However, it contains a lot about drill halls and expands on the points he made in the article I mentioned in post #953. The book is about the high level interaction between the War Office, the TF Associations and in some cases the units. Its very ‘top down’. The main records looked at are the records of the TF Associations, of which he has looked at about 40 out of 80. It complements your project as it gives much useful context as to what might have happened and why (with some specific examples in certain counties) - why some DHs were closed, others opened, the problems of financing etc.

There is too much to post here, but I think you would find it useful. However the price is (gulp!) £55 so this may be one to get via the library.

Charles

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there Gwyn,

Got those photo's of the Roundhouse in Leeds tonight, I took 3 in total they run from left to right across the frontage, I will post them in the morning when I get home.

Cheers Roger.

[Dragon]

Rich QDG - "snared" is the word the army use for "recruited"? I feared so. Thank you for the description of the set-up at Hay. I have only seen the drill hall externally.

Charles - thank you for drawing attention to the book.

Roger - thank you for taking the photos. It sounds as if I will be stitching again.

Gwyn

[lmgibbons@hotmail.co.uk]

I will check tomorrow, but I think the Drill Hall in Bilston (formerly Staffs - now reluctantly losing its independance to Wolverhampton) is now part of a redeveloped venue used for live bands called The Robin 2. Still standing and in an area of the town that had seen better days but is now the subject of sympathetic renovation. Will post a photo of "now" and will try to obtain a photo of "then" too.

[Dragon]

Hello Staffs Lass

There's a rather nice old picture of Bilston [here on our website, showing the place complete with cannon. (I own the card, which was written by a mysterious admirer to a woman.)

Information about its current status would be good, as Graeme's photos were taken a few years ago, I think. A 'then' photo would be interesting. Isn't this the drill hall that has some connection with Noddy Holder?

Thanks for your interest.

Gwyn

[John G]

Hi Gwyn,

I keep following this thread as you know and I have noticed a bit about Hay recently.

I took some pictures of the hall and some information in June(dull day I am afraid) which I have not forwarded yet because of the ongoing work with Yorkshire etc.

I also have Lyme Regis which is very interesting.

John

[Roger Thompson]

Hi all,

just to let you know that Yorkshire is now on the Drill Hall database.

Cheers Roger.

[Dragon]

Yes, Roger and thank you and the others for your input. Forty seven drill stations, eighty nine drill halls, five hundred and ninety seven images, holidays, major house works, two infections, one knife in leg, dozens of late nights, later, Yorkshire now floats in cyberspace.

Should anyone find any mistakes in photos, material or credits, please could you let Graeme know - there's an email link on the website. Me, I am going to sleep for a few weeks. I'm burned out.

Gwyn

[Graeme Fisher]

Gwyn's post somewhat understates things.

Apart from the building works, knife juggling (and subsequent stabbing), illness, exhaustion and despair that she's coped with remarkably, the amount of effort to convert all this stuff into webpages has been enormous.

Lesser mortals would have given up; Gwyn has managed to put this together in record time, under great duress.

I think the results are well worth it. Go take a look at www.drillhalls.org

Thanks, Gwyn.

And thanks, of course, to all who have contributed to make this one of the most researched counties so far.

Graeme

[Roger Thompson]

Have a good sleep Gwyn, its Graeme's watch now.

Hi Graeme,

In Bridlington today and it looks like Swindon Street Drill Hall is still there, more reconisable fron the rear and the cadets have there name board on the front.

Sorry a problem with my camera otherwise a snap would have been forth coming, bt at least i know where it is now for next time.

You both have done us Yorkies proud.

Cheers Roger.