Drill halls

[DaveR]

The other drill hall in St Helens was home to the TF Engineers, and stood at Croppers Hill.

This drill hall was also home to the TF West Lancs Field Ambulance.

The St Helens Reporter (Nov 20, 1914 p.5) reported:

‘On Friday morning the local detachment of the 3rd West Lancashire Divisional Engineers and Field Ambulance left headquarters at Cropper’s Hill for their winter training quarters at Blackpool. The weather was very inclement at the time of departure, and, beyond a few people who assembled at headquarters, but the few who lined the streets gave the men a hearty send-off. The members of the 3rd W.L.F.A. left at 9.45, being under the command of Capt. Dick. They are 220 strong. The officers will be billetted at the Imperial Hydro and the men in boarding houses in Clifford-road. The Engineers left at 10.30. There are about 350 rank and file under the command of Major Taberner. The officers will be billetted at the Imperial Hydro and the men in Adelaide-street.’

cheers

Dave Risley

[chrisharley9]

Sandyland Drill Hall, Wisbech now demolished - site occupied by a superstore

Gas Road, March still used by the ACF & ATC

All The Best

Chris

[Graeme Fisher]

Big thanks to Gwyn (as always - my North West Correspondant is well travelled!) and also Dave and Chris.

Just knowing whether these places still exist is so important; it's harder to locate the precise site of a drill hall when it's now a Lidl or an industrial estate.

Keep it coming, folks!

Graeme

[Ste]

The other drill hall in St Helens was home to the TF Engineers, and stood at Croppers Hill.

This drill hall was also home to the TF West Lancs Field Ambulance.

The St Helens Reporter (Nov 20, 1914 p.5) reported:

‘On Friday morning the local detachment of the 3rd West Lancashire Divisional Engineers and Field Ambulance left headquarters at Cropper’s Hill for their winter training quarters at Blackpool. The weather was very inclement at the time of departure, and, beyond a few people who assembled at headquarters, but the few who lined the streets gave the men a hearty send-off. The members of the 3rd W.L.F.A. left at 9.45, being under the command of Capt. Dick. They are 220 strong. The officers will be billetted at the Imperial Hydro and the men in boarding houses in Clifford-road. The Engineers left at 10.30. There are about 350 rank and file under the command of Major Taberner. The officers will be billetted at the Imperial Hydro and the men in Adelaide-street.’

cheers

Dave Risley

Hi Dave,

I see from your profile that your special interest is the St Helens Pals (11th SLR). Are you local to St Helens? I ask because that's where I'm from/live, and I'm researching the 5th Battalion.

Cheers,

Ste

[DaveR]

Ste,

I am indeed from and live in St Helens. My grandfather was in 2/3 WLFA and several family members were in 4th, 5th & 11th South Lancs. You may have seen me in The Reporter the other week in a story about a surprise photo at World of Glass. I'm interested in the South Lancs but more so in the 20 men of the WLFA on the Royal Edward. If you think we can share info, please email me.

regards

Dave

[philary]

242 Brigade, previously 3rd South Midland Royal Field Artillery Brigade, Drill hall, Stoney Lane, Birmingham. There are memorials to the fallen in WW1 on the outside. I hope one day to go and get a picture. I think Stoney lane is in the Sparkbrook area.

Hilary

[Graeme Fisher]

242 Brigade, previously 3rd South Midland Royal Field Artillery Brigade, Drill hall, Stoney Lane, Birmingham. There are memorials to the fallen in WW1 on the outside. I hope one day to go and get a picture.

Hilary

The Stoney Lane drill hall is a newer building than the 3rd South Midland gunners used. I wasn't aware of any memorial; If you're not local i could take pictures for you. I certainlywouldn't make a special effort to visit this part of the Second City!

There is an interesting drill hall not too far away, in Taunton Road, once the home of 1st South Midland Mounted Brigade Company ASC. Now used as an Asian cash and carry, you'd be hard pressed to recognise its' military past.

If you want pictures, let me know.

Graeme

[Dragon]

... to visit this part of the Second City!

Graeme, no. Manchester is England’s Second City.

Birmingham is a large town near London.

Gwyn

[Graeme Fisher]

... to visit this part of the Second City!

Graeme, no. Manchester is England’s Second City.

Birmingham is a large town near London.

Gwyn

You're right, Gwyn.

Apart from the London bit.

The Brummies built Milton Keynes to keep the Cheeky Cockney Costermongers from invading, just like Hadrian and Offa before them.

You'll also find that the Brummies kept you Northern rabble away by a strategically placed Stoke on Trent. Ha.

'Form the Allegros into a circle, and prepare to repel everyone else in the country.'

Graeme

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Graeme

Whilst looking for something else I came across this site which has lists of venues used which include a number of Drill Halls. Hope this helps.

Dave

http://www.prewarboxing.co.uk

[Graeme Fisher]

Dave - thanks.

Another late night trawling lists........

Seriously, daft as it seems, just the acknowledgment of a drill hall existing is a big help.

And Gwyn's picture is, indeed, of one of those pre-war boxing venues - Rhyl drill hall.

Great stuff, folks.

Graeme

[Guest lidzy]

Hello All!

What I've got to add isn't very helpful, but here goes. (I don't think this drill hall has been mentioned before, but it's a long thread, so apologies if it has). I've been researching the 3rd Battalion London Regiment, so I thought I'd have a little go at trying to find a photo of their drill hall. (The local guide book "From Primrose Hill to Euston Road" states that the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Royal Fusiliers leased the building between 1860 and 1921 - it had earlier been a Vestry board room and offices). A long day's search at the local history library in Holborn showed that they have no photos of the drill hall, unfortunately. The WW2 bomb damage map for the street it was situated in (now Varndell Street, called Edward Street until 1938) show that the building was slightly damaged by bombing. The whole area was demolished and replaced by a council estate built during the 50's and 60's. I was born in the street - the actual site of the drill hall is now a low block of flats called Staveley. A thorough search of the local newspapers might be fruitful. I started one, but I didn't have much time when I was in England - I'll give it a go next time I'm in the country.

All the best,

Tony

[Graeme Fisher]

Hello All!

What I've got to add isn't very helpful, but here goes.

Tony, there's hours of research in that posting!

I have traipsed those streets, in the rain, to find that lovely council estate. And it's somewhat disappointing to get there and find no trace whatsoever.

I don't have a photo, or indeed any more info, to offer you, but I am glad that you covered that particular drill hall so concisely.

If anything more comes up, I'll be sure to let you know

thanks

Graeme

[Ste]

As promised, a couple of pics of the Mill Street Drill Hall, St Helens - home of the 5th Battalion South Lancs. Next time I'll visit during the day then I can take one of the exterior!

As you might gues from some of the nautical decor, it is used by the Sea Cadets and is now known as TS Scimitar.

The main hall:

[Ste]

Another of the main hall, facing the other way:

[Ste]

Down in the cellars - this pile of junk is in a small room with a reinforced door frame and a vaulted brick ceiling. Perhaps the magazine? The rest of the cellars just have the floor boards above.

[Graeme Fisher]

Nice pictures, Ste.

The cellar one's interesting.

Not too sure about the Sea Cadets' colour scheme, tho....

Graeme

[Ste]

Not too sure about the Sea Cadets' colour scheme, tho....

Agreed! However, the building is likely to be turned into flats or demolished in the next couple of years, so the Sea Cadets might be the last line of resistance. In that case, I vote Cadet!

S

[Graeme Fisher]

Ste

Cadets win, but flats run a good second; the building remains, often with some plaque or someting regarding its' history, and it's just another stage in the building's history.

Demolition is such a tragic waste.

Makes me realise that the project should've started ten years ago....

Graeme

[Ste]

Cadets win, but flats run a good second; the building remains, often with some plaque or someting regarding its' history, and it's just another stage in the building's history.

True, flats wouldn't be a disaster by any means. In some ways, it might be preferable to cadet use for the building's long term future. Currenty, much of the building is hardly used and the parts that are used are only active for a few nights per week. So although the Cadet force maintain the building, it is a bit dodgy in places and is likely to deteriorate over time.

Private residents and their host organisation would look after the building to a higher standard which would secure its long term future. On the other hand, the redevelopment would involve a complete remodelling of the interior, fundamentally destroying much of the layout inside.

The building was purpose built for the local Volunteers in 1861 and has been in continuous miltary/cadet use ever since (I think), so it is approaching a 150th anniversary in its current form.

I'll await news of its future with interest, and return a number of times over the coming months to explore further and take more photos.

The old mess on the other side of the street is still in use as the St Helens Royal Navy Association Club. Long may it continue.

Cheers,

Ste

[Dragon]

Makes me realise that the project should've started ten years ago....

What if you had started it ten years ago, Graeme? True, there would have been more drill halls to record, but without knowing what the rate of loss has been over the decade, hindsight isn’t really valid, apart from a personal regret that you didn’t start it earlier.

Even if you’d started your project in 1919, you’d never have been able to record all the drill halls. Even the army didn’t and doesn’t know how many there were, or where they were or are, and hasn’t got records to help you. It’s as though they’ve been regarded as a Cinderella asset. They’d have been commonplace, not particularly worthy of special attention, though they were often used within the community for other purposes over the decades following the War and some people regarded them with affection. The evidence is that their demolition was often applauded, as the removal of an anachronism from a previous era to make way for something which was perceived as being an improvement for the community, such as shops or car parks.

Where you’re coming in is that the removal of yesterday’s commonplace has eventually given the surviving drill halls their rarity or scarcity value, and you’re trying to e-save them at the point in history at which they’ve become interesting.

And, ten years ago, how could you have achieved what you have done? I don’t know about you, but ten years ago, 1995, I’d only just learned to use my Internet connection and email; resources were limited and pedestrian; and the huge amount of research you’ve already carried out would have been next to impossible without the on-line resources which we use now and the e-contacts you’ve made.

As I’ve said privately, you’re in a similar position to archaeologists who are given a month to excavate an ancient settlement revealed when contractors are digging for the foundations of a new superstore. There can’t be a perfect outcome, but there’s a good enough outcome within the limitations. You’ve already achieved an awesome amount and your project is still developing.

Your database and photographic records are preserving information where it might not have been valued or saved otherwise; and rather than feeling demoralised about what might have been had you started years earlier, you should be proud that you’re advancing knowledge for the future.

They’ll not all be knocked down anyway. Some of them are remarkably fine buildings.

You’ve started. That’s much better than not starting at all.

Gwyn

Edited 10 April , 2005 by Dragon

[Graeme Fisher]

...and just when you wondered whether it was worth it..........

Gwyn makes a valid point or two. But the big thing in starting this was the lack of information. And hopefully the project will eventually fill some of that gap.

Nice to be acknowledged, tho.

Thanks again, Gwyn

Graeme

[Dragon]

The lack of information is both regrettable and surprising, but it can, to some extent, be put right.

These buildings were part of the infrastructure of the community. Every neighbourhood is anchored in its buildings, which include its churches, civic buildings, premises connected with utilities, schools, shops and hospitals, which have had to be deliberately planned for and provided. In the era prior to and including the Great War, the list of cornerstone buildings included the drill halls which you are e-recording and this is part of their significance and importance.

The contemporary archive material which I’ve sent you includes articles which convey the considerable pride with which towns regarded their drill halls and the immense public support which they attracted. For example, they may have been built with generous gifts of money from the public: the Congleton Chronicle records that, ‘The response to the appeal was both prompt and generous’, that there was a ‘hearty response’ and that Sir Walter Shakerley ‘generously’ donated the land. (1905)

Once the buildings were complete, local newspapers carried spirited reports with profuse enthusiasm: ‘fine building’,’ admirable’, ‘utmost value’, ‘greatly increased facilities’, ‘ample light’, ‘cannot fail to greatly benefit’ and ‘Altogether we think that not only the Volunteers but the town in general are to be congratulated’ (all Congleton). Lincoln: ‘very striking and effective appearance’, ‘skilfully carved [stonework]’, ‘magnificent proportions’, ‘acoustic properties…simply perfect’, ‘very special feature’, ‘comfortably and completely furnished’, ‘everything has been provided for and nothing has been overlooked’. (Lincolnshire Chronicle 1890)

And this is before one reads the descriptions of the high quality fitments and décor, including extensive use of mahogany, oak, carefully glazed brickwork, ornamental cast-ironwork, revolving shutters, beautiful chairs and even a library.

There is also evidence of planning for community use as well as their primary military functions. Continuing to refer to Congleton and Lincoln, the drill hall in Congleton was to be used for entertainments, shows and bazaars, while Lincoln drill hall was even fitted with a soup kitchen so that ‘in times of great distress in the city, when it becomes unfortunately necessary to feed many poor people and children… the hall shall be used for the purpose, without any fee whatsoever…’.

You’re not just e-saving semi-derelict spaces with walls round them; you’re e-recording buildings which mattered to every community in a way I think we can’t imagine now. You’ve read the reports of a very well attended three-day bazaar to fund one town’s drill hall, with the drill hall decked out as an army camp; I can’t imagine a fund-raising event today lasting three hours, let alone three busy and packed days.

How many of the population gave much thought to the truth that their proud buildings were part of a scheme which could mobilise on a national scale every man in every community to fight in a war, if required? I don’t know. The reports do focus on the military equipment and facilities, even down to soundproofing so that the adjoining neighbours wouldn’t hear the guns. (You were going to tell me what a morris tube was, by the way.)

Both the military and social history are factors in the importance of your project and you must not ever think that it’s futile.

Gwyn

[philary]

Hello Graeme

Sorry I have not replied until now, but the Christmas period has been a little hectic!

Thank you for the information on the Stoney Lane Drill Hall. The information about the memorial stones was from the book by ND James - Before the Echoes Die Away. I need to look up the relevant pages again, but if my memory serves me right (not a foregone conclusion!) the stones were positioned after the hall was built.

Do you know when the Drill hall was rebuilt and when? We are coming up to Birmingham in February and I would like to take a picture of it if possible, my Great Uncle's name is commemorated there. He was a member of 242 Brigade.

We are used to Birmingham, having lived there for six years so know the area a little bit.

Hilary

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Graeme

Opening of the new Drill Hall for the RFA and the Staffordshire Yeomanry in Bismark Road, Wolverhampton on 1 July 1911.

Source: The Uniforms of the British Yeomanry Forec 1794-1914 No:15 - Staffordshire Yeomanry

Dave