Ste Posted 2 June , 2005 Share Posted 2 June , 2005 This is an extremely interesting thread, and I thank the very many knowledgeable and courteous posters to date. Peronally, I would very much liked to have seen the photographs (which I didn't) and I fully applaud Kristoff's good intentions. Regarding the archaeology, I fully agree that the starting point should be the correct scientific method, but I seriously wonder how far conventional notions of stratigraphy can determine conclusions in terrain where the top - and sub - soil has ben disturbed to such a significant degree. In this respect, I suspect that the practical experience of the dedicated amateur archaeologist of the Great War provides a weighty counter to the traditional approach. It's like the tv adage of 'never work with children and animals'; I expect if there were more tv arachaeologists, they would have a similar saying in recognition of the confounding variables: never rely on stratigraphy alone to determine chronology on a Great War battlefield. Best wishes to all those helping in this case, Ste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 6 June , 2005 Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Gwyn, I've been after that paper for a long time, have been promised it but is not forthcoming! If you could see your way to mailing it to me at the location e-mailed to you I'd be heavily grateful. If I can reciprocate, please let me know. re: archaeology etc - I think one of the problems is that there are so many confounding variables in this case - there are so many 'unknowns', that cases like this poor fella become immediate case studies. As far as I can see, there's really very little known about the specifics of preservation, burial, taphonomy etc on WWI sites. Are these conditions unique, freak, or perfectly 'natural'? Pass! Next Question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Brown Posted 7 June , 2005 Share Posted 7 June , 2005 re: archaeology etc - I think one of the problems is that there are so many confounding variables in this case - there are so many 'unknowns', that cases like this poor fella become immediate case studies. As far as I can see, there's really very little known about the specifics of preservation, burial, taphonomy etc on WWI sites. Are these conditions unique, freak, or perfectly 'natural'? Pass! Next Question! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well the only way we'll get answers to those questions and others is through controlled, scientific excavation of more sites starting now, while preservation is still good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7:29am Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 Expert on organo phospates are we? Didn't think so... It may be a generalisation but it's not rubbish. Still nice to see everyone picking the salient points out in a discussion like this... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No a geologist..The underlying geology all along the western front is characterised by formations that give rise to naturally very fertile soils, chalk and calcareous clays. There has been alot done on this subject, very interestingly they employed geological skills during the first war here is an example of how they used them. In France in World War I a logistical supply problem existed. The roads were mere farm tracks and soon turned to mud in the winter. But there was a drastic shortage of drinking water- more so for thirsty horses than the troops - and this was in chalk land where most water is underground. The army sent for geological maps, but the French maps were in German hands at Lille, and all the geologists were in the services. The name of Bill King of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers alone was chosen. Meanwhile the Germans appointed ten geologists. From local farmers Bill King was able to show summer and winter water levels and so place wells effectively. At Vimy Ridge a plan was made to undermine and blow up the German positions which had the advantage of the high ground. In the area of Passchendaele, Vimy Ridge and Ypres sandstone outliers lie on clay on chalk bedrock. Simple perspective diagrams, understandable even to officers, were drawn to assist mining operations. The Germans also considered mining, but with the benefit of the French geological. maps! The sand was not suitable for mining and tunnelling in chalk was slow and detectable by geophones so the Germans abandoned the idea. But the British noted from shell hole exposures that a bed of clay existed which would allow tunnelling, 4 feet high and 3 feet wide. The Germans were fooled by work simulating difficult mining in the chalk, while mining took place in the clay, which was removed at night. From these tunnels in April 1917 separate stacks of explosives were set off simultaneously producing the biggest man-made crater then known and allowing a Canadian break through German lines. Wooden rails and cloth-wrapped wheels were employed to deaden the noise. In 1917 an effective geophone comprising two tin cans and stethoscope tubes giving stereo sound gave positioning of German operations. The thumping of borehole tamping, different from excavation digging, meant a blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve140968 Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 If this has already been mentioned i do apologize . What constitutes a positive 'ID' to this soldier , or any other for that matter ? Are initials on a cigarette tin enough if no other missing soldiers have the same initials from the same regiment ? Regards , Steve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 10 June , 2005 Share Posted 10 June , 2005 Based on a recent BBC TV documentary their has to be something that clearly IDs the remains i.e. initials or number on a personal item that could not match anyone else. Many soldiers scratched their service numbers onto razors, spoons etc. so it is possible to ID remains although 90 years of ploughing etc. often means that remains and effects are very scattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 10 June , 2005 Share Posted 10 June , 2005 If you mean the Wilfred Owen dugout program, there was a longish thread in which one of the team who had identified the German soldier found talked about it. I can't find it - ignorance of the search facility perhaps? - but I am sure someone else will be able to direct you to it! Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersoffensive Posted 10 June , 2005 Share Posted 10 June , 2005 Earlier today I spoke to the curator of the MMP 1917 (Memorial Museum Passchendaele 1917) as I was a bit shocked to read the postings on the events of yesterday. First of all I would like to make clear to everyone that the digging works which are actually being done are a result of careful research over more than a year. The old railway cutting is in the near future going to be transformed into a walking and cycling path which will connect the MMP 1917 with Tyne Cot cemetery. In order to avoid that interesting sites would be lost for ever, archaeologists as well as historians have studied the traject carefully in order to pinpoint the places which might reveal evidents of the past. This research resulted in 5 places to be examined. I want to emphasise that this archaeological dig is part of official excavation works and that the work is being done by professional archaelogists as well as historians linked to the MMP 1917. The federal police has been informed and all discoveries have been carefully listed in a inventory. The MOD and the CWGC are involved as well . An official report is going to be published in the next couple of days in which all information will be shared. Until then I think it is wise not to jump into any conclusions. I realise that this is a very sensitive subject. However, from my point of view , I can assure you that the situation is being dealt with in a professional way, unlike what some postings would let to believe. I usually don't get involved with any discussions on digging works as I am not an expert on the matter but this time I wanted to react as I was not happy at all with the image which was a result of an overenthusiast posting... Best wishes, Charlotte <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thank you Charlotte for the very useful factual overview. On reading the information it appears all is being conducted professionally with due scientific process and if there hopefully is any information to be gleaned then this poor soldier will be buried with all due respect as befits his departure from this earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 14 June , 2005 Share Posted 14 June , 2005 Are we any closer to a report being published yet? If it's published elsewhere on the web, can someone put a link in to it - or at least point us in the right direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Brown Posted 15 June , 2005 Share Posted 15 June , 2005 If you mean the Wilfred Owen dugout program, there was a longish thread in which one of the team who had identified the German soldier found talked about it. I can't find it - ignorance of the search facility perhaps? - but I am sure someone else will be able to direct you to it! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not sure where it was on here but the process is described in detail by my colleague at http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/fraser.htm What we were able to deduce satisfied the VDK. However I should point out that careful treatment of the finds, including conservation at the Institute of Archaeology lab in London, was crucial in getting an ID and deomostrates the importance of appropriate treatment of finds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Just to bring this back up - how is the report going? Do we know where and when it'll be published? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Please don't let this thread run dry! I await this report with much anticipation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Gents, I think it will be quite a while before anything is forthcoming. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 24 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2005 patience people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 25 June , 2005 Share Posted 25 June , 2005 At the risk of going over old ground, it seems to me that what matters when dealing with the mortal remains of soldiers is to treat them with respect. Most people appear to agree that Kristof has done this. I interpret his posting of the photos as a way of making that respect public. Personally I do not see anything offensive in this. Regarding the "03 webbing", all infantry units had a proportion of mounted men, usually on transport duties, who would have been equipped with the 1903 patt bandolier, water bottle, etc. But then spurs should have been found. Offhand I can't think who'd have been equipped in this way but not wearing spurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 28 June , 2005 Share Posted 28 June , 2005 Regarding the "03 webbing", all infantry units had a proportion of mounted men, usually on transport duties, who would have been equipped with the 1903 patt bandolier, water bottle, etc. But then spurs should have been found. Offhand I can't think who'd have been equipped in this way but not wearing spurs. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe an artillery observer attached to the regt? Forward OP chap? Could even be 'personal equipment'... If this chap was an officer, wearing rankers uniform as was the norm I understand from 15/16 onwards, it could be that he preferred an O3 for his SMLE clips. Could even be a ranker who got hold of an 03 in preference to the canvas bandoliers. The possibilities are endless but I am sure that Kristof and the boys will have something for us soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 12 July , 2005 Share Posted 12 July , 2005 What is the current state of play regarding the forthcoming report on this soldier? Can I ask again: where will it be published? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 12 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2005 we are all still waiting. I hope soon the official report can be published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 15 July , 2005 Share Posted 15 July , 2005 I do not know if this will help or just add to the confusion but... Last night I was watching The Great War BBC DVD episode concerning the 1917 Flanders campaign. One of the clips showed what appeared to be an infantry platoon marching up the side of a busy road to 'the front'. They appeared to wearing a mixture of std inf webbing and leather 08? bandoliers. Tried to make out any regt or div ID but couldn't see any. Also couldn't see any evidence that they were dismounted cavalry or artillerymen. More investigation needed by someone but this does seem to indicate that front line troops used the kind of equipment found on the Lancs fusilier, right time, right area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 15 July , 2005 Share Posted 15 July , 2005 I haven't got my DVD of 'Great War' to hand but you must beware as they tended to use any footage to hand to illustrate particular sequences, whether it was strictly speaking of that battle or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 16 August , 2005 Share Posted 16 August , 2005 Again: I know we are all waiting, but I think this is really besides the point now. We've had some nice photos., a lot of interpretation, and some interesting discussion which I welcome. Can we now please be given a decent idea, by the people who are presumably involved enough in the excavation to be able to take photos of it, of WHERE this report will be published. Someone somewhere must have an idea. Lot's of nice photos, lots of 'we must wait for the report' but no-one saying WHERE and WHEN it will be published! If someone tells me, I'll stop pestering!! Have no interim notes been published? No brief reports in whatever journal is in circulation over there? We need something concrete, this issue is not resolved. An answer like: 'Simon, it will most likely be published in the journal of...' would be alright. All this computing power and no-one tells me WHERE it's going to be published! If at all, as is looking increasingly likely with no further information for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 16 August , 2005 Share Posted 16 August , 2005 I'm still waiting for excavation reports from my local area to published 10 YEARS after they were undertaken! Given the quality of reports that HAVE been published by the same units, I can't see cost ever being a problem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 19 August , 2005 Share Posted 19 August , 2005 Simon, I am awaiting the report with great interest as well. As I have heard, the report of the dig is carefully being written up. There is definitly something coming, but as I understood, it is all pretty much in the hands of one person, who has a hundred things to do appart from this as well. So I think there is definitly something coming. No idea where it will be published though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Again: I know we are all waiting, but I think this is really besides the point now. We've had some nice photos., a lot of interpretation, and some interesting discussion which I welcome. Can we now please be given a decent idea, by the people who are presumably involved enough in the excavation to be able to take photos of it, of WHERE this report will be published. Someone somewhere must have an idea. Lot's of nice photos, lots of 'we must wait for the report' but no-one saying WHERE and WHEN it will be published! If someone tells me, I'll stop pestering!! Have no interim notes been published? No brief reports in whatever journal is in circulation over there? We need something concrete, this issue is not resolved. An answer like: 'Simon, it will most likely be published in the journal of...' would be alright. All this computing power and no-one tells me WHERE it's going to be published! If at all, as is looking increasingly likely with no further information for some time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Simon The report will be send to the authorities involved in this first. It is not sure if there will come a publication for the general public, although there is still a chance. Because there is a feeling that some people tried (and try) to discredit the excavation campaign I do not expect that much further rumour will be given on this affair. I understand you are impatient, but must ask to close the discussion. There will surely be no information anymore for some time, as you expected. Maybe not the nicest news, but I prefer to be honest. In the interest of everyone I would ask to close this thread now. As a compensation, I promess to inform the Forum if a publication will be published. If it will be published. Thanks Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Simon, Regarding Erwin's posting, maybe it is better to contact the VIOE directly, as they should be receiving the report. As far as I can tell, all reports are archieved and are open to the public. I know a great deal are, and frankly what's the use of keeping them if they are not open to serious researchers or students? I will send you a PM with their contact details. They are on line, but on a non-english website I think. regards, Bert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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