BeppoSapone Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 If this is the body of an officer why was he not wearing an OSD bronze cap badge? Either, he was not an officer or he was wearing an ORs cap badge to fool the German snipers. Does anyone know if this was done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Quite agree with everyone that no criticism is intended Kristof's motives in this. I also agree that it would be hugely regrettable if any lack of professional excavation and conservation meant that a possible identification was lost. The fact seems to be that the authorities in Belgium and France take a very relaxed view to the finding of human remains in the battlefield areas. Familiarity seems to have bred something akin to contempt. Excavation is left to well meaning amateurs - usually called "semi-professionals" it seems ! I sympathise because if I were living in Ypres, I would no doubt be one of those amateurs, saving up for my own trowel to become "semi-professional". That said, I am sure some of these guys are very good at what they do. For the authorities this conveniently means that they save money by not having to provide so much in the way of professional resource. I would have thought that the CWGC might usefully have a locally based archaeologists, but cost issues would arise gain. I shudder to think what secret looting is going on to feed private collections and Ebay ! Here's hoping that this soldier will have his identity etablished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 "I shudder to think what secret looting is going on to feed private collections and Ebay ! " of this soldier: nill, nothing NADA!!! You can be 1000% sure of that! The people who did the exclavations do not collect relics and are strongly against the pillages that happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 ianw. Come to see for yourself: today they are working further on the railwaytrack behind Tyne Cot. We will be looking for other traces + a shelter or a dug out people talk about + is on maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Kristoff, Great sketch - lower right leg possibly blown off do you think? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 no idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Making the huge conceptual leap that this soldier could be a member of 3/5th LF killed on or after their attack on 9th October, you may be interested to know that the battalion MO Captain Sandiford wrote a detailed account of his role in the action. It is in the National Archives at WO 95/3137, as part of the War Diary. Unfortunately I haven't yet seen this account (I hope to do so as part of my 5th battalion research in the near future, but I'm not handily placed for the NA!). However it is quoted in Sykes and Puttkowski 'Shot At Dawn' and precised in the Regimental History. After a nightmarish approach march through waist deep mud, Sandiford established his RAP 'in a pillbox' in the vicinity of the railway line, which the battalion used as its right-hand arc of advance. One or two men, stretcher cases, were killed by artillery fire as they were lying outside the RAP. Battalion's total casualties were 316. They actually got a patrol into Passchendaele village itself, a month before the Canadians, commanded by Bury Grammar school old boy Captain Frank Bentley, who won the MC but thay were forced to withdraw. This was the battlion's only attack of the war , as it was disbanded in the 1918 'cull'. They did very well, considering that two thirds of the battalion hadn't even reached the start-line at zero hour but the whole 66th Division attack was a horrible fiasco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 WAW, thanks mark! interesting facts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD60 Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Hello I am sure all is done with respects and care. Maybe more by this association than by professionals ... Very good work and congratulations !!! I hope it will be possible to identify this soldier/officer. Keep us inform ! Is there any chance that other bodies will be found during those works ? We are happy when soldier remains are installed in a cemetery near comrades. Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 The story is now (Saturday morning) on the BBC News website and CEEFAX. Unfortunately I've left my SDGW at school (which is now closed for half term) so can't have a speculative look to see who this soldier might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Hello I am sure all is done with respects and care. Maybe more by this association than by professionals ... Very good work and congratulations !!! I hope it will be possible to identify this soldier/officer. Keep us inform ! Is there any chance that other bodies will be found during those works ? We are happy when soldier remains are installed in a cemetery near comrades. Best regards <{POST_SNAPBACK}> there are professionals involved. like i told historians, and real archeologist were present + semi pro's + a few volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 I don't see any problems with taking photos, but this soldier was only found today; surely this is something that should be done at a later stage? Before you deleted a number of your posts and all your photos you stated: My point again is that surely any cleaning work should be done by a special firm? Otherwise something can be missed; I know that you do not intend any mischief here Kristof, and your motives were good, but I still maintain this work should be carried out by professionals. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The cleaning itself yes ofcourse. With the proper chemicals and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 the chances to find more bodies is very small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 kristof All cases I have seen have been delt with by CWGC and MOD. Annette <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This one too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 possibly, later the official archeological report will be posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 From reading the BBC website it seems that everything is being done " properly ". We are lucky to have a man on the ground . Any more pictures would be welcome. Regards , Roland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Here the link directly to the bbc article Found @+ patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Kristof - I regret you have taken aspects of our constructve criticism personally, for I know and recognise your motives were 100% genuine. What concerns me, and many others judging by comments on the Chat Room last night, that the correct procedure is followed and that the correct people get to see items. As Ian mentions above, we would not want the chance of a soldier's identity being lost because someone cleaned something in the wrong way and information was damaged. I am not saying you have done this, but I am sure you can see it is possible? Two factors about making this so public (not so much here, but in the UK national press and media as it is today) that worry me intensely is that the rank and details of this 'officer' are being turned into fact when they are only speculation. Secondly, let's not start speculating as to who it may be: it would be mere conjecture on our part, and potentially harmful to a family to read in a newspaper that this was soldier X, their grandfather, when later investigation showed it to be solider Y. This has actually happened: the Diggers (Aurel and Jacky will remember) were contacted by the Daily Mail who ran an article on the two RWFs found at Boesinghe in 2001: they ended up naming a soldier, whose family in Wales finally thought their loved one had been found, when he had not. None of us would want this to happen, and I know you wouldn't, but getting the press involved and making bold statements of 'fact' can only lead to something like this. I thank you for putting the photos back up; people are indeed fascinated by this. We all study these men; some of us were lucky to know the survivors. But I can tell you there is nothing so moving as witnessing the exhumation of a Great War soldier; wondering who he was, and what happened to him. I am forever grateful to the Diggers for enabling me to do that, and I am sure members of this forum are grateful to you for sharing this information here, as I am. I am also sure that the language barrier often leads to understanding where nothing nasty was intended or implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Kristof - I regret you have taken aspects of our constructve criticism personally, for I know and recognise your motives were 100% genuine. What concerns me, and many others judging by comments on the Chat Room last night, that the correct procedure is followed and that the correct people get to see items. As Ian mentions above, we would not want the chance of a soldier's identity being lost because someone cleaned something in the wrong way and information was damaged. I am not saying you have done this, but I am sure you can see it is possible? I don't think it was personal, but i am involved in some sort of way. And lessons learned! I totaly agree and next time the water stays in the reservoir. But i can assure you for at least 80%, no damage was done. Two factors about making this so public (not so much here, but in the UK national press and media as it is today) that worry me intensely is that the rank and details of this 'officer' are being turned into fact when they are only speculation. Secondly, let's not start speculating as to who it may be: it would be mere conjecture on our part, and potentially harmful to a family to read in a newspaper that this was soldier X, their grandfather, when later investigation showed it to be solider Y. This has actually happened: the Diggers (Aurel and Jacky will remember) were contacted by the Daily Mail who ran an article on the two RWFs found at Boesinghe in 2001: they ended up naming a soldier, whose family in Wales finally thought their loved one had been found, when he had not. None of us would want this to happen, and I know you wouldn't, but getting the press involved and making bold statements of 'fact' can only lead to something like this. That is something that no one can stop. The press makes up good stories. We never stated that it is really an officer. We just told them the possibility. We stay with our feet on the ground. We just hope the CWGC who will invest the items and the paperwork will discover something. I thank you for putting the photos back up; people are indeed fascinated by this. We all study these men; some of us were lucky to know the survivors. But I can tell you there is nothing so moving as witnessing the exhumation of a Great War soldier; wondering who he was, and what happened to him. I am forever grateful to the Diggers for enabling me to do that, and I am sure members of this forum are grateful to you for sharing this information here, as I am. I am also sure that the language barrier often leads to understanding where nothing nasty was intended or implied. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Language is sometime a problem indeed. I was also fascinated yesterday with the discovery of the old railroad track. I told Ian Mc Henry who visited the site too: " just wonder how many soldiers marched, strugled on this path". It was emotional. The finding, the track... I hope the CWGC can identify more of him + he get's a proper grave now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Thanks for your response Kristof - I think we realise that we are agreeing with each other! It will be interesting to see what transpires, and I am sure you will keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 28 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2005 yopu may count on it, info will be given to you as soon as we know more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Making the huge conceptual leap that this soldier could be a member of 3/5th LF <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mark It may well be a giant leap. A quick trawl through Officers Died (assuming this an LF officer KIA in October) records 30 men. 7 have known graves or were KIA in other theatres. This leaves our man as being probably one of 23. There are 3 Captains, 5 Lieutenants and 15 2nd Lts. Not good odds of an ID. And a stark reminder of how low the odds were of your body being found and identified if you were an LF officer in october 1917! Thanks for keeping us informed, Kristof. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 John - really pretty shocking statistics - and I suppose there is also the possibility that a "gentleman" ranker has been found. Kristof - my worries about "secret looting" were absolutely not directed at this investigation or any of the people involved in it and I would love to come over to see the work going on. How long is it scheduled to continue for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 I ought to add that he might equally well be from one of the other LF battalions of 197 Brigade 66 Division which attacked in the area on 9th October, i.e. 2/6th. 2/7th and 2/8th. My tentative ID as 3/5th comes from the apparent position of the body on the railway track, which was used by 3/5th in particular during the attack. I don't know of any other LF battalions who served in that particular area. Frustratingly I've left my copy of SDGW and a lot of my books, including the Regimental history at school, forgetting that new security procedures mean I can't access them during the half term holiday. If someone else has a copy of the LF Regimental history to hand they might have a scan through the relevant section. For those of you who have that coffee table book by Anthony Livesey 'Great Battles of World War One' there is a stylized panorama of the 66th Division attack, clearly showing the railway line, on pp122-123. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 28 May , 2005 Share Posted 28 May , 2005 Battalion breakdown of the 23 as ODGW:- 2nd 1 1/2 2 3/5 2 5 2 6 4 7 3 8 2 17 4 18 3 John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now