LANCASHIRE FUSILIER FOUND!!

[docchippy]

Can any pals put up a trench map /overlay of the area with site of body marked?

[carninyj]

Kristof,

I somehow managed not to see this when it was first posted and hence my own separate topic post asking for information.

Thanks for all that you have done and are doing. It's a great job and I'm pleased we have such a reliable agent on hand. Thanks again.

Regards

Carninyj

[Aurel Sercu]

let's not start speculating as to who it may be: it would be mere conjecture on our part, and potentially harmful to a family to read in a newspaper that this was soldier X, their grandfather, when later investigation showed it to be solider Y. This has actually happened: the Diggers (Aurel and Jacky will remember) were contacted by the Daily Mail who ran an article on the two RWFs found at Boesinghe in 2001: they ended up naming a soldier, whose family in Wales finally thought their loved one had been found, when he had not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely, Paul, I do remember that very well. Also because it left a very bad taste! I may have told the story elsewhere on this Forum, but in a nutshell ...

In the period that The Forgotten Battlefield was broadcast (March 2002) I was contacted by telephone by a journalist or editor of a British tabloid. His question was if "it was possible that the remains of the Royal Welsh Fusilier we had excavated were of a man fallen on 31 July 1917, the Battle of Pilkem Ridge."

My answer was : "Yes, but since the RWF were on that site from Jan 1917 till July 1917, the man may also have fallen on any day in that period, before the Battle of Pilkem Ridge." (Paul Reed was at the excavation and can confirm that there was no way to say that the man fell on July 31.)

But the question was renewed : "Is it possible (possible !) that the man fell on 31 July ?"

Again : "Yes, but he may have fallen on May 13 or April 29 of Feb 7 or June 22 as well !"

"Yes, but is it possible that he fell on July 31 ?"

"Yes, but it is also possible ..."

This went on for a few minutes, and then the conversation, if it was any, was stopped. I didn't know what to think of it afterwards, until I learned that the following day there was an article in the tabloid : "Remains of Private [name] found at Boezinge." With a photo of the man himself.

What had happened was that after I was called the tabloid man had contacted the curator of a Museum in Wales, with the question : "Give me the name and a photo of any man who fell in Boezinge on 31 July, and who remained missing..."

And the worst part indeed is that descendants of Private X had been contacted too !

As I said : A very bad taste !

Also this : we cannot be cautious enough with regard to a possible determination of and ID. Remember "William Storey" (5/Northumberland Fusiliers) of Nov. 2003, in which the media played a part too, discussed elsewhere on this Forum.

Aurel

[Jacky Platteeuw]

Can only confirm what Paul and Aurel stated namely to be extremely cautious towards forwarding names and certainly about spreading information. A painfull situation as I remember with the RWF.

Jacky

[Mark Hone]

I have contacted the LF Museum and other interested parties locally and warned them to be very careful in speculating about the identity of the body, ie not do so at all before investigations are complete. Easy to get carried way in the excitement of the discovery, I know, and I fully accept what Aurel, Jacky and others have said. The LF museum are naturally interested in this, not least because they were previously involved in the successful identification of Private Harry Wilkinson, whose body was found near Ploegsteert a few years ago.

[Terry Denham]

Can I clarify CWGC's role in this process in light of some of the comments above.

CWGC is not responsible for searching for bodies or identifying bodies when found. Their Charter does not permit them to maintain any sort of facility to do so. Their role is simply to care for Commonwealth casualties' graves and memorials.

The process briefly will be that the local police will satisfy themselves that this is a WW1 war casualty and not a victim of a modern crime or accident etc. Then if the body is identified as a Commonwealth casualty, the UK MoD (or other Dominion authority if appropriate) will investigate any possible identification. The MoD will have official charge of the body though it could actually be in a CWGC facility for some/all of the time.

CWGC will assist in the indentification task if requested by MoD - usually by providing possible names etc as part of the process and they may care for the actual body whilst it is awaiting any expert examination ordered by MoD.

When the body is finally released for burial (identified or not) it will officially pass into the care of CWGC for burial. In this case, it will probably be buried in Cement House Cemetery along with other recent finds though any identification could change this if appropriate.

I share the concerns expressed in the early part of the thread but I am equally sure that no harm was intended - or has probably been done! Well done, Kristoff

[bernardmcilwaine]

terry is there a chance of narrowing down the list of possibles,bernard

[Mark Hone]

Bernard-see the warnings about jumping to conclusions about identification above. I think, as I've indicated in earlier postings, that this soldier probably died during 197th Brigade's attack in the area on 9th October 1917. I'll wait for the findings of the experts rather than speculate further.

[PFF]

Hear is my 1/2 cent worth-the wallet with St. Barbara-not necessarly California.

St Barabra is the PAtron Saint of Artillerymen-so:

1) The Decesaed was a Roman Catholic and adopted St Barbara as personal saint. or

2) The Deceased was a former Arilleryman with alligance to St. Barbara.

Regarding -one leg gone? Possible cause of death (From Shellfire???)

GAs mask and Gas Groundsheet: He meet his death during a Gas Attack (from Shellfire? leg cut off???) and when he was buried covered by groundsheet.

Those who buried him just had time enough to bury him-but not enough time to lay him

out straight (he is lying on his side) or remove his personal effects to send to next of kin. (Hence cigerette case et al)

[charlotte cardoen-descamps]

Earlier today I spoke to the curator of the MMP 1917 (Memorial Museum Passchendaele 1917) as I was a bit shocked to read the postings on the events of yesterday.

First of all I would like to make clear to everyone that the digging works which are actually being done are a result of careful research over more than a year.

The old railway cutting is in the near future going to be transformed into a walking and cycling path which will connect the MMP 1917 with Tyne Cot cemetery. In order to avoid that interesting sites would be lost for ever, archaeologists as well as historians have studied the traject carefully in order to pinpoint the places which might reveal evidents of the past. This research resulted in 5 places to be examined.

I want to emphasise that this archaeological dig is part of official excavation works and that the work is being done by professional archaelogists as well as historians linked to the MMP 1917. The federal police has been informed and all discoveries have been carefully listed in a inventory. The MOD and the CWGC are involved as well .

An official report is going to be published in the next couple of days in which all information will be shared. Until then I think it is wise not to jump into any conclusions.

I realise that this is a very sensitive subject. However, from my point of view , I can assure you that the situation is being dealt with in a professional way, unlike what some postings would let to believe.

I usually don't get involved with any discussions on digging works as I am not an expert on the matter but this time I wanted to react as I was not happy at all with the image which was a result of an overenthusiast posting...

Best wishes,

Charlotte

[Cotswold]

Can I clarify CWGC's role in this process in light of some of the comments above.

CWGC is not responsible for searching for bodies or identifying bodies when found. Their Charter does not permit them to maintain any sort of facility to do so. Their role is simply to care for Commonwealth casualties' graves and memorials.

The process briefly will be that the local police will satisfy themselves that this is a WW1 war casualty and not a victim of a modern crime or accident etc. Then if the body is identified as a Commonwealth casualty, the UK MoD (or other Dominion authority if appropriate) will investigate any possible identification. The MoD will have official charge of the body though it could actually be in a CWGC facility for some/all of the time.

CWGC will assist in the indentification task if requested by MoD - usually by providing possible names etc as part of the process and they may care for the actual body whilst it is awaiting any expert examination ordered by MoD.

Hello bkristof,

has the excavation been completed now and if so, have the MOD taken official charge of the soldier's body? I really do hope that the Soldier can be identified but realise this may not be possible. Thankyou for bringing the story to the forum and for the pictures and regular updates. Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Donna

[Terry_Reeves]

Charlotte, I agree totally with your post.

Terry Reeves

[robbie]

Charlotte, I agree totally with your post.

Terry Reeves

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too. Thanks Charlotte.

Robbie

[Terry Denham]

Do not jump to conclusions and do not try to 'second guess' any investigation. Even trying to narrow down possible names could be counter productive.

Be patient. It may take a year or two but if identification is possible, the authorities will get there.

Good post, Charlotte.

[Bob Coulson]

Must agree with the above, people seem to be getting a bit carried away with this.

It's happened before will certainly happen again.

Be patient and let the authorities get on with their investigation.

Bob.

[bluedog]

Charlotte & Kristoff

Thank you for all the dignaty you have tried to pass on to this English soldier found after all these years.

Dont worry about the knockers, your thoughts and compassion are

greatly appreciated.

There are also thousands of Australian officers and OR,s

with no known graves in France and the Salient and I hope that if their

final resting place is ever found, i hope it is by the likes of both of you

PETER

[eviltaxman]

I've been tracking this thread since the beginning and one thing has been making me wonder.

Although a breakdown of the numbers from the different officer ranks has been given and the recent advice stating that Saint Barbara was also a Patron Saint....... my thought is "were there any Americans who served as Officers in this regiment?" I know they (the Americans) joined in shortly before this time, but is there any possibility that one enlisted in the Commonwealth forces?!?!!?

Les

[AOK4]

Hello,

I'm very sceptical about the possibilty that this man was an officer. I saw something at the television and they showed the man's cap badge, clearly an OR badge... I do not see any indication why f.i. the presence of two pencils or a silver cigarette box or two pencils would indicate him being an offcer. What would indicate in that direction are officer's badges or officer's rank stars etc.

So this man is more probably an OR from the LF...

Jan

[bkristof]

Jan,

it is indeed an OR cap badge. The officers suggestion came because of the remarkable items this soldier had with him.

Like you said, we must stay sceptical and not start to fantasize.

[Simon R]

Dear you lot,

If I might be permitted to describe this poor man as an 'archaeological find', could someone related to his discovery just paste up a few details of the archaeological context within which he was discovered?

Such as: what deposits covered him?

: what deposit was he laid in?

: what deposits were underneath him?

: did any of these provide terminus dates for the layer he was in?

: was he found in association with any earlier archaeological features?

: any idea of his age from teeth/epiphysis etc?

I post this smilie because I've had a dreadful day at work and think you all ought to know and sympathise. I await your empathy. Cup of tea would be nice.

[bkristof]

Dear you lot,

If I might be permitted to describe this poor man as an 'archaeological find', could someone related to his discovery just paste up a few details of the archaeological context within which he was discovered?

Such as: what deposits covered him?

          : what deposit was he laid in?

          : what deposits were underneath him?

          : did any of these provide terminus dates for the layer he was in?

          : was he found in association with any earlier archaeological features?

          : any idea of his age from teeth/epiphysis etc?

I post this smilie because I've had a dreadful day at work and think you all ought to know and sympathise. I await your empathy. Cup of tea would be nice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will try to post a full official archeological report as soon as possible.

[Chris_B]

I am not sure that my post added to this long thread will ever be read, but it is a rather personal message to those who do.

I cannot claim to be the most eloquent of writers and often find it difficult to express my exact thoughts and feelings on paper, but there is something about his whole business which makes me feel very very uneasy.

I'd like to think we would all heed the more cautious words expressed by Paul Reed, Terry Denham, and Aurel Sercu whose collective knowledge and experience I respect.

But more than this, if this dig had occurred somewhere on the Zonnebeke Road where my Grandfather's cousin Samuel George Burge died, possibly blown to bits, and was denied a proper burial, I would be asking myself this question:

Would I really want photographs of what might be his remains splashed all over the Internet at the first opportunity, or would I prefer the investigation into his remains to continue in a dignified, discreet and confidential way, away from public gaze and curiosity, until at some point when a positive ID (if ever possible) was made and a simple but honourable burial could take place.

I know my answer, and rather than be swept a long by this “exciting discovery” I'd ask you to give a moments thought to what your answer would be...

[eviltaxman]

Chris,

I totally agree with your question... there is a moral perspective about this situation. My G-Grandfather was killed in action and his body never recovered. His name is one of the many on the Tyne Cot Memorial. Unfortunately this is the age in which we live... live coverage of wars on TV for example, so news items and photos are "common place".

Most people would look at us at being ghoulish, but this is an interest in which many follow in general. I do hope that the remains are treated with respect (and as far as I can tell so far - by Kristof - they are).

We all await the outcome, even if it takes a while... he may be related to one of us.

Les.

[john w.]

Just to add here that the Mail on Sunday did a report on this find today, they statd that it was probably an officer..

ascinating read.. thanks bkristof for the posts..

John

[bernardmcilwaine]

theres the problem when something like this happens,THE MEDIA,they start guessing and digging out pictures of who he could be,and all they do is upset anyone connected to the men they put forward,why dont they ,just for a change,follow the story as it unfolds and report it correctly instead of making up b******t to sell more papers than the other b**********s,it just upsets people unnecessarily,am i wrong or a bit harsh,bernard