bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 Are we to understand you have taken the items home?! I thought this was not allowed under Flemish Law? This was certainly the case for the Diggers when we were making 'Forgotten Battlefield'. Surely any cleaning should be done by a professional, Kristof? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Paul, everything has been seen by the authoroties + everything is on an scientific inventory. To complete it we took the pics of the washed stuff. We don't have time to let it been done by a special firm. But we used archeological techniques. Some of the guys of the group doing these exclavations are semi- archeologist + prof. archeologists + historians. The body + all items go to the CWGC and will go with the soldier in the grave. The museum conservator contacted a few persons to have permission to clean the item up with a bit of water for inventory + to find out more if possible. He recieved authorisation to do that. You can be sure all is treaten very carefully + with respect + legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 You know what else happens? the items end up in a private collection or on a fair. or in case when no researcher is around, they end up with the body in a plastic bag and are never researched. That is what the police told us anyhow. And he was the resposible for these kind of findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I still do not understand why the body and items were not handed over to the Police. You state: You know what else happens? the items end up in a private collection or on a fair. Are you accusing the Police of selling off evidence? That is quite a claim! We don't have time to let it been done by a special firm. But with respect, surely that is not your decision, but the decision of CWGC and MOD Casualty Section? You are quite wrong to suggest that each British body found is not investigated; it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 hello kristoff,how sure are they about the year of death,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I still do not understand why the body and items were not handed over to the Police. You state: Are you accusing the Police of selling off evidence? That is quite a claim! But with respect, surely that is not your decision, but the decision of CWGC and MOD Casualty Section? You are quite wrong to suggest that each British body found is not investigated; it is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First paul: The body and the item are handed over. But we asked permission to investigate the items (wash them a bit) that is all we did. All things will be given to the CWGC + the body (by the police). I am NOT saying that the police is selling of evidence. I am just saying that often BEFORE the police arrives the body is "pillaged". I am NOT saying that the CWGC is not reasearching the bodies+ finds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 kristof All cases I have seen have been delt with by CWGC and MOD. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 hello kristoff,how sure are they about the year of death,bernard <{POST_SNAPBACK}> possbly October 1917. He had an SBR on his + LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 It is not making 'problems' Kristof, but I am sure I am not alone in being a little surprised that this has been handled in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 Are we to understand you have taken the items home?! I thought this was not allowed under Flemish Law? This was certainly the case for the Diggers when we were making 'Forgotten Battlefield'. Surely any cleaning should be done by a professional, Kristof? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> by the way the items are not in my home and certainly NOT in some sort of collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 i do not understand that there is such a problem with taking pics for the archives? The items will be given to the CWGC. + pics of where and how they were found + a list of all objects + the exact location. There were semi - profs and real historians + prof. doing the excalvation. There is also an archeological report made offcourse. I believe you can trust these people/ us. But I think i was wrong thinking this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 i do not understand that there is such a problem with taking pics for the archives? The items will be given to the CWGC. + pics of where and how they were found + a list of all objects + the exact location. There were semi - profs and a few real historians doing the excalvation. I believe you can trust these people/ us. But I think i was wrong thinking this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Kristoff I am very grateful that you posted this thread with all the interesting photos. thank you. Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I don't see any problems with taking photos, but this soldier was only found today; surely this is something that should be done at a later stage? Before you deleted a number of your posts and all your photos you stated: We don't have time to let it been done by a special firm. My point again is that surely any cleaning work should be done by a special firm? Otherwise something can be missed; I know that you do not intend any mischief here Kristof, and your motives were good, but I still maintain this work should be carried out by professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I can understand a bit of Paul his worries. But on the other hand what if the guy who will make the walking path found him, would he be so carefull? I am affraid not. I can't believe that what happend could do some harm. Nothing is gone except a bit of clay. I am really shocked with this negative response. I thought i helped the historians with some good work. Now it seems they involved me in some sort of crime? This is the first time i ever active helped with exclavations. I was so pleased to see the professionalism. Till now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I don't see any problems with taking photos, but this soldier was only found today; surely this is something that should be done at a later stage? Before you deleted a number of your posts and all your photos you stated: My point again is that surely any cleaning work should be done by a special firm? Otherwise something can be missed; I know that you do not intend any mischief here Kristof, and your motives were good, but I still maintain this work should be carried out by professionals. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Paul, but that is my point! We justed washed the items carefully. We didn't use chemicals or some sort of special things. Nothing is destroyed or lost. maybe it doesn't look like that...BUT... The item were just so good preserved, believe it or not! So it will go to the CWGC, they will clean it further and do the scientific resaerch not??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I was pleased to see the photos, Kristof. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 if you would have been there... you would noticed the shiny fork and the shiny capbadge... i will try to post a picture were you can see the badge... like found, on the spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I was pleased to see the photos, Kristof. Marina <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am sorry, but they were offensive to some people + i don't want to get in trouble with posting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I can understand a bit of Paul his worries. But on the other hand what if the guy who will make the walking path found him, would he be so carefull? I am affraid not. I can't believe that what happend could do some harm. Nothing is gone except a bit of clay. I am really shocked with this negative response. I thought i helped the historians with some good work. Now it seems they involved me in some sort of crime? This is the first time i ever active helped with exclavations. I was so pleased to see the professionalism. Till now... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Kristof, I share Paul's concerns - for that is what they surely are, 'concerns', not accusations of criminality or ill intent! However, the contents of that wallet OUGHT to have been removed and processed by an archaeologically trained forensic technician. Only then could we be absolutely sure that there was nothing of substance to be gleaned from these contents. I don't know whether such an expert COULD have done anything with mushy congealed paper - but neither, I suspect, do you or you colleagues - which is precisely why they ought to have been safely bagged pending the attentions of just such an expert. BTW - why delete posts from this thread which will render it unintelligible? One final thought - you say 'on the other hand what if the guy who will make the walking path found him, would he be so carefull?' But surely the point is it WASN'T the guy building the path who excavated the remains of this poor soul from the mire, but people (you say there were 'historians' present) who ought to have known to secure all items pending professional examination in lab conditions. Do you not agree? Regards, George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 ok guilty as charged... but the papers are not lost... most of it are still in a plastic bag. Because we knew specialists could do more research on it. And they were not in the wallet no more, but inbetween it in very bad condition. what is unintelligible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 what is unintelligible? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Unreadable or undecipherable. Best, George PS Glad to read that the contents of the wallet have at least been bagged for an expert - just hope the process didn't make them more unintelligible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 tommorow i possibly can take pics of the wallet contens, but it looks like a bit of mouldy paper... And maybe it wil start another little storm. So... What else was wrong then? Also to come back to Pauls sentence: why not take pics later... Well a few of the people who were exclavating today were the same who helped exclavating Private thompson, the Grodon hihglander. Then they did not took pics of the found items and they asked to have the possibility... It never happend. Adn the items went straight back to his grave, whitout a picture of it. Except a few items who were given to the family. I think this can become a difficult discussion, but i want to stay out of any trouble. What i did I did with respect and with trust in historians and semi - pro's. They contacted me to help to identify some objects, that is what i did. and i took some pics of the items. I don't want to make trouble, get people in trouble or myself. I hope you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 Kristof, I don't think anyone here would want to see you or anyone you worked with in trouble. For myself I'm 100% convinced of your good intentions, and thank you for bringing this wondrous bittersweet story to our early attention. If your pictures and descriptions had shown the items recovered from the body being bagged 'as found' pending forensic examination by professionals, in appropriately equiped environs, then I don't for one moment imagine any 'concerns' would have been raised here. Lessons have no doubt been learned, so we can perhaps move on and await developments as far as an ID of this soldier of the Great War is concerned. Regards, George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 What i did I did with respect and with trust in historians and semi - pro's. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Kristof, Thank you for showing us the pictures and caring for one of our boys. I don't think anyone here who knows of you would doubt your sincerity in helping out with the dig and treating the body with reverance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 27 May , 2005 Share Posted 27 May , 2005 Thanks for putting the pictures back up kristof! As I said to you in the chatroom, the criticisms over the items not being bagged for professional cleaning have all been made now, and responded to graciously by yourself - so we might as well enjoy your fine images of parts of this remarkable find. In any case, my concern was more over the need for an expert conservor to take charge of the papers found rather than any cleaning of metalic objects. Please don't let the 'constructive criticisms' made here take the edge of what must have been a very exciting and moving involvement for someone with your obvious enthusiasm for the subject! Best, George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 May , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2005 I am convinced that if all was just putted in a bag or box with the bits of dirt on it. Nobody ever could imagine how well preserved everything was. Now it is in a box (not a bag) waiting for the CWGC to pick it up, but we have pics of it to share with you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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