Where we are with identifying the men in a group photo of the 2/5th LF on 1/5/1915 - and the mystery of the 30th man

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Apologies for any duplication between this thread and https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/ and https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-–-“c”-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/

As those other two threads are now very long and complicated, this new thread aims to provide a summary as to where we are with the identifications, and a resume of what is known about each man, so that if anyone comes to the GWF in future researching these men their task should be just a bit easier than trying to wade through the other two threads. It is also to say a very big thank you to those who have been helping me iwith the identifications - including the grandchildren of two of the men who have assisted by providing photographs of their grandfathers,

First, for ease of reference, I am re-posting below the group photograph itself, with numbers kindly inserted by PRC, and also a photograph from the Bury Guardian of 5 December 1914, taken while the officers of the 5^th Reserve Lancashire Fusiliers were training in Southport, with thanks to Brian Morris for obtaining it from Bury Archives. This photograph includes many of the men who would later be photographed in Bedford, but a word of warning: we believe that the names of the men in the middle row are in an incorrect order, and that instead the names should be in the order under the same photograph (but of worse quality) in the Bury Times of 5 December 1914, namely Evans, Barnsdale, Kirkman, Ducksworth, Barnes, Young, Kemp, Ashworth, Cummins and Hutchinson (see the discussion in this post https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-–-“c”-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288252 and the other posts of 5 April).

The reference to the mystery 30^th man in the heading to the thread is a reference to the fact that in his memoir my grandfather lists only 29 officers of the Lancashire Fusiliers who went to France with the 2/5^th LF on 3 May 1915, and that seems to tie in with the War diary records (see the discussion in this post https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3277712 and following  posts through to 28 February).

As there are 30 officers in the group photo, that means that one officer who is present in the photograph did not go to France with them.

While there are 30 officers in the group photograph; in fact only 28 officers were present when the photograph was taken, with the other two being “photo-shopped” in at either end of the back row. Presumably those men were not available at the time of the photoshoot. Presumably also, whoever did the photo-shopping was satisfied that, with those two added, all the men who went to France on 3 May were included in the photo.

We do not yet know for certain who the 30^th man was, though we do know that it was not Richard Henry Barnes, even though his MIC states “In France May ’15”, because it has now been established with certainty from the WD of the 1/5^th LF that he was in the Dardanelles on 1 May 1915 (see thttps://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/4/#comment-3281093). It may possibly be Newton Dukinfield Thompson, who my grandfather tells us in his memoirs went to Bedford on 25 April 1915 to collect surplus stores, and may well have hung around until the battalion left on 3 May 1915 (see https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3278987).

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Below is a further version of the group photograph on which I have added labels based on our current best guesses as to the identity of each man. As suggested by PRC I have colour-coded the labels so as to indicate the degree of certainty with which we made the identifications.

I would be quite surprised if the identification of any man whose label is red or orange has to be re-thought. The green label of Officer 14 is also unlikely to be wrong, because of the height of Officer 14, which means that he has to be either Evans or Hill, and he seems a much better match for Evans than Hill on the basis of other photos known to be them.

That leaves us with the other tall man, Hill, 6 feet 2 ½ inches in height. Unless he is one of the tall seated officers, which I do not believe to be the case, he has to be one of the photo-shopped men, as there are no obviously tall men in the back or middle rows who have not already been identified. The photo-shopped men will probably have been added so that their heads are roughly level with the other heads in the row, so one or other of them could be unusually tall without it being obvious from the photograph. It is also likely that Hill, as Machine Gun Officer, would have been absent from the photoshoot because he would have been busy getting ready for departing in advance of the others at midnight on the day of the photoshoot (see https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3276839 ). By comparison with the known photograph of him provided by his granddaughter I think that, of the two photo-shopped men, Officers 1 and 10, he is most likely to be Officer 10. I have therefore tentatively labelled him as such, using purple colour-coding.

If Hill is Officer 10, then the other photo-shopped man, Officer 1, is most likely to be Abbotts, the Transport Officer, as he too would probably have been busy getting ready for departure at midnight, and I have therefore tentatively labelled him in purple as Officer 1.

Officers 20 and 29 are definitely captains, Officer 30 is probably also a Captain as we can see two pips which do not seem to be centrally placed on the cuff, but are offset closer to the wrist, so there is probably a third pip that we can’t see, and, although no insignia are visible on Officer 21’s cuffs, he too is likely to be a captain, and these four between them are likely to be Captains Ramsden, Goldsmith, Hutchinson and Simon. From other photos of Hutchinson and Simon these two have tentatively been identified as Officers 29 and 30 respectively; with even less certainty Ramsden has been identified as Officer 20 and Goldsmith as Officer 21. Both Hutchinson and Goldsmith are present in the newly discovered clearer photo of the Officers of the 5^th Reserve Battalion in Southport from the Bury Guardian, so maybe this will help.

In the back row, Mark Hone has expressed the view that Hartington is Officer 6 from other known photographs. I have therefore tentatively identified him as Officer 6, based on Mark Hone’s gut feeling and the eyebrows of Officer 9, which don’t seem to fit with other known photos of Hartington. If he is not Officer 6, Officer 9 would be the next most likely match.

The other names, Packman and Duckworth are allocated on grey labels, very tentatively indeed. I have plumped for Packman as Officer 9 and Duckworth as Officer 17, but without any real evidence. Both appear in the new clearer Southport photo, and there are two other known photos of Duckworth, so it might be possible to make further progress with these identifications.

Officer 16 is currently the “mystery 30^th man”

I am also posting below a table setting out my grandfather’s list, by company, of the 29 officers who went to France on 3 May 1915, along with the best information that we so far have as to their height and age. (As the table cannot be viewed in its entirety if viewed on a phone I am also uploading a pdf version)

I am intending to keep both documents up to date if our knowledge or view of the identities of the officers change, but will note any edits, and the reason, at the bottom of this post.

 

Officers of the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers on 3 May 1915
	Name and rank	Height, if known, & source	Approx age, if known, & source
HQ	Hall, John Lieutenant Colonel, CO
	Milnes, Henry Nicholas Major, 2nd in Command		39 1911 census
	Cummins, John Joseph Pemberton Captain, Adjutant		47 1911 census
	Bowd, James Lieutenant, Quartermaster
	Abbotts, Whateley Lieutenant, Transport Officer	5 ft 9 ½ in Imperial Yeomanry Discharge papers	41 1911 census
	Hill, Claude Worsley Boyce Lieutenant, Machine Gun Officer	6 ft 2 ½ in NA Service record	28 1911 census
	Hall, Norman Lieutenant, Signals Officer	5 ft 7 ¼ in Travel warrant, ALFFWW*	23 dob 28/02/1892
“A” Company	Goldsmith, George Hartley  Captain		30 GRO records
	Ramsden, Edgar Robinson Captain		44? GRO records
	Gray, Gabriel Lieutenant		32 1911 census
	Waterhouse, Hugh 2nd Lieutenant	6 ft 3 in Lancashire Daily Post, 14/07/1933	23 1911 census
	Noton, Henry Hartley 2nd Lieutenant		18 1911 census
“B” Company	Barnsdale, John Davison Major	Tall Photo of “B” Coy ALFFWW*	37 1911 census
	Bloy, Laurence Henry Captain	5 ft 8 in approx. Exhumation report on CWGC website But small in Southport and Bedford photos	22 1911 census
	Duckworth, William Lieutenant		21 1911 census
	Barwood, Arthur Vincent Lieutenant	Small Photo of “B” Coy; Nickname “Little” ALFFWW*	48 Find a Grave website
	Hartington, John Ernest 2nd Lieutenant		18 1911 census
“C” Company	Hutchinson, Geoffrey Clegg Captain		21 1911 census
	Kirkman, Reginald William Lieutenant		24 1911 census
	Rothband, Baron Harold Lieutenant		28 1911 census
	Young, Malcolm Henry 2nd Lieutenant	5 ft 9 in approx. Exhumation report on CWGC website (but see comment re Bloy above)	20 1911 census
	Evans, Mansfield Priestley 2nd Lieutenant	Tall Photo of 5th Reserve in Southport, Dec 1914	23 1911 census
	Packman, John Booth 2nd Lieutenant		18 1911 census
“D” Company	Waterhouse, Kenneth Captain		36 1911 census
	Hedley, Joseph Walton Captain		35 1911 census
	Simon, Eric Conrad Captain		27 Bedales archive
	Latter, John Cecil 2nd Lieutenant		18 1911 census
	Kemp, Norman 2nd Lieutenant		19 1911 census
	Harker, John Frederick 2nd Lieutenant		18 GRO Records
*ALFFWW – A Lancashire Fusilier’s First World War, Norman Hall’s memoir

Grandpa's Diary - 2nd 5th LF officers who went to France on 3 May 1915.pdf

 

Edited 13 April by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To add pdf version

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Finally, Ihere is a table which sets out the evidence on which our guesses for each man's identity is based, the background infomation that we have about each man so far, links to posts discussing the man, and possible future avenues to explore. As the full table is not visible on a phone, I have also uploaded a pdf version.

 

Resume re information on Officers in Group Photograph of 2/5th LF, Bedford, 01/05/1915
No.	Possible/likely identification	Percentage Certainty[i]	Remarks/ evidence for identification	Key information re background and career	Relevant posts	Avenues still to follow
1	Lieutenant W. Abbotts Transport Officer	20%-34%	The two lieutenants on the left of the front row (where TO might be expected to be as an HQ officer) have been identified as other men; the officer on the right of the front row might possibly be a lieutenant but more probably has 3 pips on his cuff. Officers 1 & 10 are photo-shopped in, & WD says Abbotts (TO), Hill (MGO) and Milnes (2nd in C) entrained at midnight on 01/05/1915, in advance of others, so maybe the TO and MGO too busy to attend photoshoot, meaning that they are the photo-shopped men. See below for identification of Officer 10 as Hill, leaving Officer 10 to be Abbotts. Also, Abbotts should have had South Africa medal, hard to tell whether either Officer 1 or 10 has one, but relevant part of left breast pocket (Officer’s left) seems more obscured on Officer 1 than on Officer 10	Born 1873, Burton on Trent, Staffordshire, Barley agent, married with 3 children born Carshalton/Tooting, all baptised Carshalton 1897, widowed prior to 1900, joined Staffordshire Yeomanry 1898, enlisted for 1 year with Imperial Yeomanry 1900, fought in South African War as a trooper 1900-1, invalided home with enteric fever, stayed with Staffordshire Yeomanry and awarded Territorial Long Service Medal, on return from South Africa was commercial traveller, Tutbury, Staffordshire, bankrupt 1910, in WW1 enlisted with 10th Hussars as private initially then obtained commission in  2/5th LF as Transport Officer January 1915. Gassed October 1915, re-allocated to 1/5th LF serving in Egypt and (from February 1917) France with them, seconded to command Prisoner of War Company May 1917, gassed again February 1918 and never fully recovered, to Labour Corps June 1918, highest rank in WW1 Captain, relinquished commission August 1919 on account of ill health contracted on active service, 1920 was in Pendyllyn Hall Sanatorium Penmaenmawr, but address for medals to be sent to was Derby, died Stratford on Avon 1922	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/ 1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/4/#comment-3280840 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/4/#comment-3281240 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3281278 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3281556 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288346 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3290132	Service record at NA WO374/50 still to be examined
2	Lieutenant N. Hall Signals Officer	100%	He identified himself in the photo	Born in Bury, 1892, father a wool merchant, educated Bury Grammar School, Owens College, Manchester University (Chemistry), worked at Lever Bros Port Sunlight pre-war, highest rank in WW1 Captain, returned to Lever Bros after the war, moved to British Dyestuffs Corp Manchester, later ICI Huddersfield, married 1921, three children, died 1967
3	2nd Lieutenant H.H. Noton	75%-89%	Photo in ALFFWW[ii]	Born c. 1897, lived Withington, Manchester as a child, married 1919 in Sheffield; MC  LG 3 June 1916, highest rank in WW1 Captain, resigned commission on account of ill health contracted on active service LG 6 September 1918	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)
4	2nd Lieutenant N. Kemp	75%-89%	2 photos in ALFFWW[ii] , Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914 , photos in Thiepval database	Born West Didsbury, Manchester c 1895, father a vicar (later vicar of Blackpool North Shore, then Radcliffe), educated Rossall School, won mathematics scholarship, accepted for Cambridge with mathematics scholarship, intending to take holy orders, kia as temporary Lieutenant September 1916	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)	I have emailed Rossall School enquiring whether they have any photographs
5	2nd Lieutenant M.H. Young	75%-89%	Photo in ALFFWW[ii] , Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born  Bury c. 1895, father an army Colonel, educated at Marlborough, highest rank in WW1 Lieutenant, became engaged to Norman Kemp’s half-sister April 1916	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3289360 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3289604	Marlborough School may have further information, but there is not much on their website
6	2nd Lieutenant J.E. Hartington	50%-64%	Photo of “B” Coy in ALFFWW[ii], photos on Bury Grammar School Roll of Honour website If Hartington is not Officer 6, then the next most likely is Officer 9	Born Mexico 1896, father manager for textile company, educated Bury Grammar School, seconded to MGC, highest rank in WW1 Lieutenant, MC LG 21 November 1916, kia July 1917	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/4/#comment-3280600 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3281264 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3281331 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3281344 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3281556	Service record at NA WO374/31596  still to be examined
7	2nd Lieutenant J.F. Harker	90%-100%	Photographs from St George’s School, British Columbia	Born London 1896 to father surname Haarbleicher , foreign banker, and mother with maiden name Da Costa Ricci. Educated Rugby School from 1910. Private in the 2nd London Divisional Army Service Corps before obtaining commission in 5th LF, highest rank in WW1 Captain. Went on to diplomatic service The Hague and Washington, later became bursar, then Headmaster, of King George’s School British Columbia, retired 1962. Married 1930 in Washington, one son, Christopher. Died 1975	Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)	Possibly Rugby School may have some photographs; Potentially the NA may have received his service record from the MOD as an officer who continued to serve after 1920, and may make this available in due course; he has an officer’s  service no. - P49432.
8	2nd Lieutenant J.C. Latter	75%-89%	3 photos in ALFFWW[ii]	Born 1896, educated at Cheltenham College, highest rank in WW1 Captain, MC LG 26 November 1917, went on to have career in army rising to Major General in WW2, retired 1947, published A History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914-1918 in 1949, died 1972	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)	Possibly Cheltenham College may have some photographs
9	2nd Lieutenant J.B. Packman	10%-19%	Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born 1897, Bury, father a vet, mother died 1903, widowed aunt lived in the household from at least 1911, educated Bury Grammar School. Highest rank in WW1 Captain, became Captain in the Territorial Force Reserve December 1920. Married 1922 in Sussex, no evidence of any children, by 1927 a nurseryman, still a nurseryman in Hankham, Sussex in 1939, sworn in as Special Constable 1940, formed a Ltd Company to run nursery business in 1947, self and wife directors, widowed 1962 living in Chichester, died 1967, still in Chichester	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3281433 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/2/#comment-3282014 Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288022 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-–-“c”-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288346	Service record at NA WO374/51811 still to be examined Might Bury Grammar School have any photographs? Closed entries in the 1939 Register?
10	Lieutenant C.B.W. Hill Machine Gun Officer	20%-34%	See above re Officer 1; C.B.W. Hill was exceptionally tall, 6ft 2 ½ in, which limits the officers he could be; other tall officers have been identified with a fair degree of certainty. Officer 10’s height is unknown as he is photo-shopped in (the same applies to Officer 1). Photos produced by granddaughter, especially those on the beach, look more like Officer 10 than Officer 1	Born Farnham 1896, educated at Trent College, with the Berkshire Imperial Yeomanry for 3 years until 1908, married 1910, two children by 1912, emigrated to Canada in that year to farm on Vancouver Island (having previously tried farming in Rhodesia but found it not to his liking), wife and children followed him to Canada in about 1913, all their possessions lost in transit as a result of a shipwreck, lived in tent while they built their farmhouse, joined up with Seaforth Highlanders (Canada) as a private in September 1914, discharged in November 1914 to enable him to obtain a commission in the LF, highest rank in WW1 Lieutenant, shot in the head by sniper July 1915, survived, but never fully recovered, wife return from Canada with two young children to nurse him. Family returned to Canada by 1917 and Claude tried to resume farming, but couldn’t manage the work, tried running a shop for a while, but couldn’t manage that either, another child born while in Canada, came back to England in about 1923, living in Dorset initially, found employment with Singer Sewing Machine Company. Became manager for Singer Sewing Machine Company in Leicester. Died 1947 in Whitby while on holiday attended by his wife, cause of death meningitis caused by metal plate in head. Service record survives WO373/33365, and has been examined	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3288599 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3288622 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3290132 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3290222	Trent College, now Trent College and the Elms, may have more information and/or photos. Photograph in The Times for 2 June 1910 reporting on his wedding?
11	Captain J.W. Hedley	90%-100%	Photo in ALFFWW[ii]	Born c. 1884, the son of a vicar of Langho Village, near Blackburn, teaching at Copthorne School in Crawley, Sussex pre-war, home address Cheltenham, highest rank in WW1 Captain, died of wounds September 1916	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)
12	Lieutenant R.W. Kirkman	75%-89%	Rank, photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born 1890, Leigh, Lancashire, son of an elementary school teacher, went to Cambridge University, highest rank reached in WW1 Captain, married in 1916 in Colchester (on Home Service there with 3/5th LF), no evidence of children, after war appointed as assistant master Rye Grammar School, Sussex 1921, address Tunbridge Wells when he applied for medals in 2022, in 1939 Register teaching at Shoreham Grammar School, Sussex, elected member of Royal Geographical Society February 1942. Died 1972, then resident at Hove.	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276252 Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3279888 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-–-“c”-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3279888 Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/2/#comment-3281706	Service record at NA WO374/39937 still to be examined Possible avenues to explore are Thomas Peacock Community School as the successor institution to Rye Grammar School and/or East Sussex and Brighton and Hove Records Office which have some documents from Rye Grammar School, or Shoreham Grammar School. It is just possible that the Royal Geographical Society may have a photograph
13	Lieutenant B.H. Rothband	90%-100%	Identified by grandson, Nigel Rothband	Born Manchester 1886, parents born Krakow, Poland. Father founded business in Manchester, initially selling small items made from waterproof rubber sheeting (wash bags etc.), moving into other applications of rubber sheeting, including x-ray protection, and making other items for medical use, including prostheses, surgical instruments etc. Family lived Cheetham, Manchester, Baron educated Manchester Grammar School, employed in family business wef 1901, partner 1910, Private in Inns of Court OTC when obtained commission in 2/5th LF April 1915 (LG 18 May 1915), highest rank in WW1 Captain. After WW1 returned to family firm, married Mabel Franks in Hull 1919, lived in Withington, Manchester, two children, Geoffrey and Margaret, born 1920 and 1923 respectively, Master of Masonic Lodge (Old Mancunians), President of South Manchester Synagogue, resigned this position when formed battalion of Home Guard in WW2 (46th Battalion South Manchester and Withington), becoming its Lieutenant Colonel and commanding it until Home Guard was stood down. Chairman and Managing Director of company when family firm was incorporated in 1955 (still in existence under the trading name of Rothband today). Died Manchester 1965	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3279176 Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/2/#comment-3287512 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288022 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288059 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288089 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3289058 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3289143 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3289150
14	2nd Lieutenant M. P. Evans	65%-74%	Height, Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born Kidderminster 1892, son of Unitarian minister, went to Oxford to study theology 1911, graduated 1914, highest rank in WW1 Captain, January 1917 Physical Training instructor in Ripon with the 3/5th LF, seconded to Indian Army Reserve January 1918, 2/1st Brahmans, served India and possibly Persia, joined political service 1919 after 2/1st Brahmans were disbanded, as Assistant Political Officer kia July 1920 in Mesopotamia during Arab uprising. Engaged to Beatrice Irene Rathbone (known as Irene Rathbone) who wrote fictional account of their relationship in We That Were Young	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276639 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3281433 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/2/#comment-3282154 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/2/#comment-3282745 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288346	Possibly there may be a photo with Irene Rathbone’s War Diary in the IWM https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030001257 Papers relating to his father may include a photo of him (at Bank Street Unitarian Church, Bury, or Manchester University Library) Lincoln College, Oxford archive may have a photo
15	2nd Lieutenant H. Waterhouse	90%-100%	Rank, height, photos from Retford School 1911, wedding photograph 1929 from Dorothy Dunlop’s 1916 and Beyond the Pale, photo in Lancashire Daily Post 14/07/1933, Chorley Grammar School photos 1933 to 1950	Born 1891 Pendleton, son of a storekeeper, educated Manchester Grammar School, excelled at sports, assistant master, scout master and house master at Retford Grammar School 3 years from 1911, went to Cambridge to study French in 1914, studies interrupted by the war, highest rank in WW1 Captain, MC  LG 2 April 1919, led final attack on Ath, after the war went back to Cambridge to continue his studies, Cambridge blue against Oxford as a shot putter, taught at Rugby School 1920/21, tour of America summer 1921 with Oxford and Cambridge athletics team competing against American Universities, senior French master and house master at King Edward VII School at Lytham 1921 to 1933, Headmaster of Chorley Grammar School 1933 to retirement in 1957, ARP warden in WW2, married 1929, a son born 1931, Edward H. Waterhouse. Died 1981	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 3 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 4 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 5 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 5 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3287023	St John’s College have a photograph of the Cambridge Athletic Club’s Blues in 1920, which is very likely to include H. Waterhouse, which it would be nice to see, but requires a personal visit to the College. No-one has yet been able to find a photograph of the Oxford and Cambridge Athletics team which went to America in the summer of 1921, but photographs must surely have been taken. Potentially Manchester Grammar School may have photographs, or AKS, the successor school to King Edward VII Grammar School. Rugby School may also possibly have a photo
16
17	Lieutenant W. Duckworth	10%-19%	Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914, photo of “B” Coy in ALFFWW[ii] photo in Heywood Advertiser 18 August 1916	From Heywood, pre-war worked as commercial clerk in the Manchester offices of Healey Bros, ropemakers of Heywood, being a grandson of Alderman William Healey JP (father also worked there). Married January 1916, Kirkman was his best man, highest rank attained in WW1 Captain, relinquished commission on account of ill health caused by wounds wef 3 February 1919 (LG of that date)	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288346	Service record at NA WO374/76597 still to be examined
18	Lieutenant G. Gray	90%-100%	Rank, photo in ALFFWW[ii]	Born c 1883, pre-war assistant master at Cheltenham College, highest rank in WW1 Captain, POW March 1918, returned to Cheltenham College after the war and was a master and house master there until his retirement in 1937	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3277582 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3277689	Possibly Cheltenham College may have some photographs
19	Captain L.H. Bloy	90%-100%	2 photos in ALFFWW[ii] , Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born c. 1893 Hindley Green, Wigan, educated Abram and Hindley Grammar School, distinguished himself in mathematics and football, had begun studying for a degree in science at Manchester’s Victoria University when war broke out, interrupted his studies to become an officer with the 5th Battalion LF, highest rank obtained in WW1 Captain, died of wounds June 1916	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276252 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3289604 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3289659 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/6/#comment-3289674	Abram and Hindley Grammar School, but that has morphed into a few different establishments over the years, and no obvious resting place for archives, particularly none with a curator interested in WW1 research; the school’s war memorial table is in the custody of the Three Towers Alternative Provision Academy, presumably only because it took over the school building
20	Captain E.R. Ramsden	35%-49%	Rank, and having probably identified other Captains, except possibly Goldsmith (see Officer 21)	Highest rank in WW1 Captain; very little else is known about him, save that he may have been born in Huddersfield in 1871	Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3280109 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3280264 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3280722 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3278280
21	Captain G.H. Goldsmith	35%-49%	Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914; see also Officer 20 as a possible	Born 1885 Bowdon, Cheshire, father and grandfather architects, moved (possibly) about a mile to Hale, Cheshire, by 1901, witness at inquest into a death at Little Orme’s Head 1903, brother died 1906 (found hanged, but possibly an accident). Trained Manchester School of Art and Victoria University, Manchester, articled as an architect to his father and others. Assistant Draughtsman to Lutyens 1907 to 1910, then went into private practice probably with his father. Married Margaret from Workington in London 1909, lived at Withington, Manchester, child of the marriage died soon after birth. In 1911 census still in Withington with Margaret, and probably with her in 1915, but that marriage didn’t last, though it’s not known what happened to Margaret. In 1899 architect father Henry founded and designed a Golf Club at Rhos on Sea, and (probably) designed and built the new Club House commissioned in 1905, also designed and built a residence for himself in Rhos on Sea, completed 1912. Father and son worked together as architects on a sea outlet at Rhos in 1911. Hartley Goldsmith and also Kenneth Waterhouse (Officer 28) were on the ROH for Rhos on Sea Golf Club in 1915. Highest rank in WW1 Major, attached to RE from February 1916, MC LG 3 June 1918. After war Assistant Architect to Imperial War Graves Commission 1919 to 1927, living St Omer when claimed medals in October 1921. Designed 67 cemeteries and won competition to design Memorial to the Missing at La Ferte, unveiled in 1928. After leaving IWGC lived and worked in London in private practice until at least 1936. 1939 Register shows him at address in Lauderdale Mansions, Paddington with Ethel Goldsmith. He worked for Midland Bank designing banks at Knotty Ash (1936) and Elstree Way (1942). Retired to Rhos on Sea and died 1967. Ethel died 2 weeks before Hartley, same address as his, aged 72. Her dob is given as 1895 or 1897 on 1939 Register (1895 consistent with age 72 at death). Not known where she was born or where they married. Unlikely that there were children of the union, at least who survived the couple, as wills of both left their estates to the other, or, if the other died first, to friend and near neighbour Kenneth George Worrall, chartered surveyor.	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276639 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3280722 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3280953 Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/2/#comment-3287063 Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/page/3/#comment-3288346	Service record at NA WO339/59603 still to be examined Possibly there may be some photographs of him in his role as an architect, particularly at the unveiling of cemeteries that he had designed (listed on the CWGC website) either in the press (in which he is maybe not specifically named) or in other archives? The Manchester School of Art or Manchester University (the successor institution to Victoria University) may possibly have more information about him in their archives, though a personal visit is required for any research Just possibly the Rhos on Sea Golf Club may have an archive somewhere with information or photographs relevant to him. Can the photograph album which was in the possession of Mr K.G.  Worrall in 1981 be traced?
22	Lieutenant A.V. Barwood	75%-89%	Photo of “B” Coy in ALFFWW[ii], previous role as bandsman in 9 KLR as per LG, 3 medal ribbons, probably coronation and South Africa medals	Born 1867, came from family of bandmasters, educated Kneller Hall, Royal Military School of Music, went on Sudan and Nile Expeditions 1882 to 1885 and left diary of his experiences, performed with 1st Royal Berkshire Military Band Halifax, Nova Scotia, 1895 and 1896, in Barbados with 1st Royal Berkshires October 1898, following which that Regiment returned to England, performed with 1st Royal Berkshires at Woking Soldiers' Home 1903, may have been awarded medals for participating in coronation of Edward VII and/or George V as well as medals for Sudan/Nile campaign, bandsman with 9th King’s Liverpool Regiment at beginning of WW1, obtained commission with 5th Reserve Battalion LF January 1915, seconded as Railway Transport Officer July 1917 (LG 24 September 1917 and 11 January 1918), highest rank in WW1 Captain, after the war was by 1938 in Liverpool with David Lewis Military Band as musical director having held appointments with several Military Bands, retired from David Lewis Military Band owing to ill health March 1938, died later the same year, three sons were also bandmasters.	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/#comment-3273772 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3275999 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276415 Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/4/#comment-3280419 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/4/#comment-3280584 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3287023 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3288231 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3288349 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3288355	Service record at NA WO374/70660 still to be examined It may be possible to locate family papers referred to in Victoria Schofield’s The Highland Furies: The Black Watch 1739 – 1899 Might The Royal Military School of Music have any relevant records (though its archives appear still to be in search of a home following the closure of Kneller Hall in 2021)
23	Lieutenant J. Bowd	99%	Photo in ALFFWW[ii] , Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Probably served in the ranks prior to WW1. Medal ribbon(s) visible in photograph. Quartermaster with Honorary rank of Lieutenant wef 1 December 1914 (LG 22 December 1914). Remained with 2/5th LF in that capacity until end August 1916. Transferred to Territorial Force Reserve as Quartermaster with Honorary rank of Lieutenant wef 21 September 1917 (LG 20 September 1917)	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3287023	Service record at NA WO374/7972 still to be examined
24	Major J.D. Barnsdale	90%-100%	Photo of “B” Coy in ALFFWW[ii], Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born Arnold, Nottinghamshire 1878, educated at Nottingham High School, Sedbergh School and Trinity College, Cambridge. In 1904/5 played in 25 matches of Association Football for Nottingham Forest and in 1905 toured the US with a British team (the Pilgrims) to promote Association Football. Also in the early 1900s played club cricket with Nottingham Forest CC and Magdala CC, in one first class match against Oxford University (1905), and in international amateur teams against France (1909) and Wales (1910). Also played golf and lawn tennis, and took part in rowing and running at Cambridge. In 1910 married Helen Bowden, daughter of Frank Bowden, founder of Raleigh Bicycle Company, was to become Director of that Company. 1911 census living in Hale (see Captains Goldsmith and Kenneth Waterhouse, Officers 21 and 28). Sons born August 1915 and March 1918. Was with 1st Volunteer Battalion, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment as Captain before WW1, Captain 5th East Lancashire Battery RFA 1914 (according to Sedbergh magazine), Captain in 5th LF wef 7 October 1914, highest rank in WW1 Major. Seconded as Commandant of a Reception Camp wef 26 May 1918 (LG 28 September 1918). Retired to Surrey, took up farming. Died 1960, Farnham, Surrey	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/#comment-3273772 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/#comment-3274492 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/#comment-3275155 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3275363 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3275497 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3275861 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276000	Service record at NA WO374/4179 still to be examined Possibly the Nottingham High School records or school magazines (which are held by Nottinghamshire Archives) may have more photos or information, or the Sedbrgh School archives may have photographs (school magazines are digitised online)
25	Captain J.J.P. Cummins	90%-100%	Rank and position in photograph, Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born c 1868, Treasurer of Stafford Canine Society 1910, still living in Stafford in 1911. Probably had served in the ranks prior to WW1. Medal ribbon(s) visible in photograph. Quartermaster with Honorary rank of Lieutenant wef 7 October 1914 (LG 14 October 1914). Resigned that commission 26 November 1914 and became Adjutant with rank of Captain wef same date (LG 9 December 1914). Replaced as Adjutant of 2/5th LF June 1916, proceeded to Base Depot in Calais. Seconded to Machine Gun Corps January 1917, performed duties as Equipment Officer and Adjutant, Tank Corps by April 1918,highest rank in WW1 Major, restored to establishment 7 August 1919 (LG 22 August 1919)	Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276000 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3287023	Service record at NA WO374/17219 still to be examined
26	Lieut.Col. J. Hall	99%	Rank (the only Lieutenant Colonel), Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914, separate photo in same edition of Bury Times	Solicitor in Bury in civilian life, senior partner of Hall and Smith, Solicitors, also Clerk to the Justices up to WW1 (Heywood Advertiser 21 July 1916). Served in 1st Volunteer Battalion, LF from 1884. Volunteer Officers’ Decoration. Medal ribbon(s) visible in photograph. Appointed Lieutenant Colonel 1st Volunteer Battalion LF wef 1 January 1908 (LG 4 February 1908), appointed Lieutenant Colonel 5th LF wef 1 April 1908 (LG 6 November 1908), retired 20 January 1912 on completion of period of service in command (LG 19 January 1908). Appointed temporary Lieutenant Colonel 5th LF wef 27 September 1914 (LG 10 November 1914). Left 2/5th LF to return to Britain in June 1915. Took over command of 3/5th LF (ALFFWWii). Appointed Commandant of Firth Hill Camp for POWs July 1916 (Heywood Advertiser 21 July 1916)	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/5/#comment-3287022	Service record at NA WO374/30210 still to be examined
27	Major H.N. Milnes	90%-100%	Rank (the only man wearing the insignia of a Major), photo in ALFFWW[ii] , Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914	Born c. 1876, living in Bury by 1911. Had served in 1st Volunteer Battalion, LF pre-war. Medal ribbon(s) visible in photograph. Appointed Captain in 5th LF wef 1 April 1908 (LG 6 November 1908), Major wef 15 October 1914 (LG 14 October 1914), remained at that rank throughout the war	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/2/#comment-3276000	Service record at NA WO374/48010 still to be examined
28	Captain K. Waterhouse	90%-100%	Rank, photo in ALFFWW[ii] , Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914, photo from The Spire	Born c.1879, educated at Giggleswick School, worked in shipping, partner in Manchester firm, living at Timperley, Cheshire in 1911, moved to Hale by at least 1916, was on the ROH for Rhos on Sea Golf Club in 1915, as also was Hartley Goldsmith (Officer 21), who had also lived in Hale. Married Gladys Constance Macdonald in 1908, no record of any children. Highest rank in WW1 Captain, kia August 1916	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3277146	Possibly Giggleswick School may have some photographs, though I wrote to them some time ago and got no reply. See also G. H Goldsmith re Rhos on Sea Golf Club
29	Captain G.C. Hutchinson	50%-64%	Rank, photo in ALFFWW[ii] , Bury Times photo of 5th Reserve Bn. Southport Dec 1914, photographs from National Portrait Gallery as an MP	Born 1893 Prestwich, father a cotton manufacturer, educated Cheltenham College and Clare College, Cambridge, highest rank in WW1 Captain, MC LG (Edinburgh Supplement) 28 August 1916, married Jane Bidlake 1919, continued to serve with TF after war, Major 1937, served France in 1940, then War Office post as deputy assistant to Military Secretary, Honorary Colonel of 5th LF 1948, collected material for The History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914-1918, ultimately published by Latter (Officer 8), After the war in civilian life became a barrister, then went into local government politics (Hampstead Borough Council and London County Council), elected Conservative MP  for Ilford 1937 to 1945, and Ilford North 1947 to 1954, knighted in 1952, sat on Boards of various water companies, after retiring as MP chaired National Assistance Board  until 1964, became life peer, Baron Ilford of Bury 1962, died Cannes, France 1974, no record of children	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309235-help-identifying-officers-in-group-photo-of-25th-lancs-fus-in-bedford-151915-b-coy-hill-abbotts-h-waterhouse/page/3/#comment-3276815 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3276401 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3276681 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3276936 Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3277090 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3277288 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3277716	Possibly Cheltenham College may have some photographs. Bury archives have a collection of family documents which Hutchinson passed to them in the 1970s; I will inspect them later this year
30	Captain E.C. Simon	50%-64%	Rank, photo in ALFFWW[ii]  , photographs on Bedales’ archives and Jewish WW1 website	Born Manchester 1887 to Prussian parents, his paternal grandfather having left Prussia for Switzerland in 1949, then moved to Britain working as a civil engineer and eventually building two businesses in Manchester (flour milling machinery for eg Macdougalls and coking ovens for eg Durham Colliery and Manchester Crematorium). Educated at Bedales, interested in beekeeping and photography and participated in drama, after leaving school travelled widely 1909 and 1910, married Winifred Levy 1912, also ex Bedales pupil, her family based in London and owning cottage in Windermere, with the father working in South Africa. Settled down to farm in Haslemere, breeding cattle, two sons born 1912 and 1914, Oliver and John. Had served with TF (The Buffs) from 1907 to 1913 rising to Captain, rejoined (LF) on outbreak of war, highest rank in WW1 temporary Captain, kia 17 August 1915. Two of his four brothers, ex pupils of Rugby, also kia in 1917.	https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3276690 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3276725 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3276936 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3277288 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3277716 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3279892 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3280264 https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309430-help-identifying-officers-of-the-25th-lf-part-2-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cc%E2%80%9D-coy-ramsden-simon-harker/#comment-3280296	I have emailed Bedales archives to enquire whether they have further photographs

 

---

[i] Percentage of certainty, key to colour coding:

10%-19%

20%-34%

35%-49%

50%-64%

65%-74%

75%-89%

90%-100%

 

[ii] A Lancashire Fusilier’s First World War, Norman Hall’s memoir

 

Grandpa's diary - resume of research re 2nd 5th LF Bedford group phooto - Copy.pdf

Edited 13 April by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To add pdf version

[Mark Hone]

Regarding J.B. Packman, I can confirm that he was indeed an old boy of Bury Grammar School, first being recorded in the 1907 School Year Book as a member of Hulme House alongside his elder brother W.G. He appears to have left part way through the 1912-13 academic year when he would have been in the Fifth Form. He was a lance corporal in the school's Officers Training Corps  in 1912 (John Hartington, later a platoon sergeant, was a full corporal at the same time). The school had a full set of photographs taken in 1912-the whole school and every form and sports team but, needless to say, they didn't attach lists of names to them.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, Mark, for that information. How frustrating that the school didn't put names on the photo, so it's not going to be of any help to us. But at least I now know that that is one avenue that is closed, thank you.

Tricia

 

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

On Ancestry in Service Medal and Award Rolls under 1914-15 Star - Officers (Various Regiments) I found Lancashire Fusiliers in WO 329/2948 from p 333 to p 381. The 29 names we know about are shown although some only show May 1915 with no date and others have an incorrect date e.g Lt W Abbotts (p 343) is shown as April 1915, 2/Lt J C Latter (p 349) is shown as 05/03/1915 not 03/05/1915 and 2/Lt C W B Hill ( p 379) is shown as 01/1915.

On p 380 attached there is a Capt R H Barnes shown with a date of 05/1915. He is not named by Norman Hall. He brings the total up to 30. Could he be the missing link. I will look through the WDs to see if it can be established that he served with 2/5.

EDIT: Lt R H Barnes is shown on the photo of the Reserve Bn Officers. 

Brian

TNA/Ancestry WO 329/2948

Edited 20 April by brianmorris547
typo

[brianmorris547]

On the original thread I posted that Richard Henry Barnes was shown on the 1911 Census as age 22 of Sunny Bower, Tottington, Bury. His Silver War Badge approval dated 1918 does not say whether sickness or wounds. It does confirm his address as Sunny Bower. I extended the newspaper check dates but still no photograph.

His BW&V roll does not show any further detail.

With the Bury Times and Bury Guardian Southport photos having the middle row names in a different order we have two possibles to compare with the Bedford picture.

Brian

Edited 21 April by brianmorris547

[Mark Hone]

Captain Richard Henry Barnes was another old boy of Bury Grammar School. He appears on the detailed and annually updated Roll of Honour of former pupils serving which appeared in the School's Year Book. Unfortunately, as I now live over a hundred miles from Bury I can't get in to look at his entry on the Admissions Register, which hasn't yet been digitised. However, I can tell you that he had been a member of the school's Officers' Training Corps, founded as the Cadet Corps in 1892 and still going strong today as the CCF. The evidence is clear that he was known as 'Harry', because that is how he is listed in the early war years (as '2nd Lieutenant, later Captain, Harry Barnes 5th Lancashire Fusiliers' ) but as 'Captain R.H. Barnes' from 1917 onwards.  

Edited 21 April by Mark Hone

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, @brianmorris547and @Mark Hone.

I hadn't realised that R.H. Barnes was known as Harry, or that he had been a former pupil at Bury Grammar School.

Brian, I am not surprised, given the number of men popping in and out of these threads, that it had slipped your mind that R.H. Barnes looked like an early candidate for the 30th man, because his MIC showed him as getting the 15 star and "in France May '15", but now that I jog your memory you may recall that you found him in the WD of the 1/5th LF, and that he was  left behind in Egypt according to the entry of 1 May 1915, which seems fairly conclusive that he was not in the Bedford photo on 1 May 1915 - unless possibly he had been left behind in Egypt some time prior to 1/5/1915, but only recorded on 1/5/1915, and had been able to make his way back to Britain (via France?) so as to join the 2/5th in Bedford in time for the photo???

 

 

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

I have just remembered that I found him in the WD of 1/5 LFs in Gallipoli. 

There are other possibles in the 1914-15 Officers Roll who are shown as Prior to such and such a date. Back to Square one. I will have another look.

Brian

[Mark Hone]

Harry Barnes does not appear in the group photograph of the officers of 1/5th LF 'stationed in Egypt' which was published in the Fusilier Annual 1915. I have reproduced this in my obituary of Captain A.P. 'Pat' Hudson which can be found on the Bury Grammar Roll of Honour web page. Unfortunately, it is not clear when this picture was taken but it was clearly before May 1915. 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

8 hours ago, Mark Hone said:

Harry Barnes does not appear in the group photograph of the officers of 1/5th LF 'stationed in Egypt' which was published in the Fusilier Annual 1915. I have reproduced this in my obituary of Captain A.P. 'Pat' Hudson which can be found on the Bury Grammar Roll of Honour web page. Unfortunately, it is not clear when this picture was taken but it was clearly before May 1915. 

A copy of the photograph which you included in Pat Hudson's entry in the Bury Grammar School Roll of Honour was recently drawn to my attention by @brianmorris547 as he had come across it when looking at editions of the Bury Guardian in the Bury Archives for a better copy of the photograph of the Officers of  the 5th Reserve Battalion in Southport. I am not sure of the date of the edition in which it appeared (Brian may know this), but we do know from my GF's memoir that three men, 2nd Lieutenants Laughlin, Frizelle and Barnes, the last two of whom were present in the 5th Reserve photo taken in Southport in December 1914, received orders to proceed to Egypt to join the 1/5th LF some time after 11 January 1915, so I would guess that the photo was taken some time between the latter part of January and the end of April.

Brian also very kindly provided me, courtesy of the NA, with a copy of the actual page of the entry in the WD of the 1/5th LF for 1 May 1915 which refers to R.H. Barnes being left behind in Egypt; it says "Left by train for Alexandria. Strength 26 officers 593 O.R. ...  2 Lt R H Barnes left behind & attached to Herts Yeomanry". To my mind this does read as though Barnes was still with the 1/5th LF right up to 1 May 1915 when he was attached to the Hertfordshire Yeomanry, rather than that he had become detached some time previously and thus did not go with them on 1 May 1915; so I still don't think that he can be in the Bedford photo.

My preferred option for the 30th man is still Newton Dukinfield Thompson, because we do know that he was sent down to Bedford a few days before they departed for France. I have done my best to enlarge him from the 5th Reserve photo, but it is very poor quality, and probably not clear enough to say whether he might be Officer 16, or possibly Officers 9, 17 or 6, who are the other candidates whose identities remain most uncertain. Thomson is the man on the left, and slightly behind, by the way.

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

I did not make a note of the date of the picture of 1/5 Officers in the Dardenelles but I think it was after June 1915.

Brian

[Mark Hone]

The group photo of the officers,which is recorded as depicting them in Egypt, must have been taken before 1/5th deployed to Gallipoli at the beginning of May 1915

[brianmorris547]

Mark

I agree. I have a picture of Bolton Artillery Officers "engaged at Gallipoli" that was taken in Egypt. 

This is the photo from the Bury Guardian. I can get a better copy for you if you wish from the library. This was taken with my phone camera.

Courtesy Bury Archives.

Brian

EDIT: This is a clearer image of the photo of the Officers of 1/5 in the Bury Guardian. Bury Archives e mailed it to me with the edition dated 19/06/1915 but I think it was 19/07/1915.

 

Edited 25 April by brianmorris547
additional info

[Mark Hone]

Thanks, Brian. The one I used for my Roll of Honour was a camera phone photo of the one reproduced in the Fusilier Annual for 1915. It's not brilliant quality. There are ten old boys of Bury Grammar School depicted, four of whom died in the war: one at Gallipoli, two later in the conflict and one of disease after the end of hostilities.

[alantwo]

@A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy @Mark Hone @brianmorris547

The roll for the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers embarking Minominee at Alexandria on the 2nd May 1915 indicates the cause of  2nd Lieutenant Barnes absence as "Sick in quarters - Abbassia".

I hope that helps.

Alan

Reference, my photograph of the embarkation roll, the NA Kew.

Edited 23 April by alantwo

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 22/04/2024 at 18:24, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

so I would guess that the photo was taken some time between the latter part of January and the end of April.

Having re-read the above, I really don't know why I put it in those terms, because what I meant to say was that, as Barnes, in particular, wasn't present, it would probably have been taken either before Barnes arrived, which I surmise would have been at the earliest towards the end of January, or after his exit at the end of April 1915, which is altogether different - sorry! The more recent posts from Mark and Brian are not inconsistent with that, in that they are saying that it would have been taken before the unit deployed to Gallipoli in May 1915.

I have now noticed that the legend beneath the photograph mentions specifically that Lieutenant Frizelle (2nd Lieutenant Edwin Samuel Frizelle) was not in the photograph, which suggests that he was by then with the unit but deployed elsewhere at the time the photograph was taken. 2nd Lieutenant Richard Henry Barnes and Lieutenant Charles Wesley Laughlin, who also received orders to proceed to Egypt at about the same time as Frizelle  in January 1915, are not mentioned. Does this mean that these two had not yet arrived? All three men were entitled to the 15 Star, but not the 14 Star according to their MICs (though curiously Barnes' MIC mentions France, May 1915, not Egypt). 2nd Lieutenant Frizelle was to be killed on 3 August 1915.

I see that two of the men present in the photograph had already died by the time the photograph appeared in the paper. 2nd Lieutenant Humphrey King Hoyle was killed on 7 May 1915 and is commemorated on the Helles Memorial, Lieutenant Alfred Renshaw died on 7 June 1915, and is buried in the Lancashire Landing Cemetery. This means that the photograph was definitely taken before 7 May 1915, and equally definitely not printed in the newspaper until after 7 June 1915, which is consistent with Brian's recollection.

On 23/04/2024 at 17:48, alantwo said:

The roll for the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers embarking Minominee at Alexandria on the 2nd May 1915 indicates the cause of  2nd Lieutenant Barnes absence as "Sick in quarters - Abbassia".

Thank you @alantwo for posting that extract, it confrims, I blieve, that Barnes was still present in Abbassia on 2 May 1915.

[alantwo]

16 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Lieutenant Frizelle (2nd Lieutenant Edwin Samuel Frizelle) was not in the photograph, which suggests that he was by then with the unit but deployed elsewhere at the time the photograph was taken. 2nd Lieutenant Richard Henry Barnes and Lieutenant Charles Wesley Laughlin, who also received orders to proceed to Egypt at about the same time as Frizelle

2nd Lieutenants Frizelle and Laughlin are included on the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers roll embarking Minominee on 2/5/15 at Alexandria.

Alan

[brianmorris547]

On 23/04/2024 at 07:35, Mark Hone said:

Thanks, Brian. The one I used for my Roll of Honour was a camera phone photo of the one reproduced in the Fusilier Annual for 1915. It's not brilliant quality. There are ten old boys of Bury Grammar School depicted, four of whom died in the war: one at Gallipoli, two later in the conflict and one of disease after the end of hostilities.

Mark

I have just posted a clearer image of the 1/5 Officers on my earlier post. I was at Bury Archives this morning. 

I bet these chaps could say who all the Officers on the Bedford photo are.

Bury Guardian 02/10/1915. Courtesy Bury Archives.

Brian

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

7 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

I bet these chaps could say who all the Officers on the Bedford photo are.

Bury Guardian 02/10/1915. Courtesy Bury Archives.

As you say, Brian, I bet they could have helped us. Pity the newspaper did not name the servants.

You may recall looking out the following information about the man who was my GF's servant in the 2/5th LF at the beginning of the war, namely Fred Waddicar dob 1884 from Bury,

He had been a pattern maker (wood) and textile machinist according to the 1911 census. My GF tells us that he was invalided back to Britain with appendicitis in November 1915. He transferred to the RFC in February 1918, and thence to the RAF on 1 April 1918. the RAF Muster Roll, as you may recall, again shows him as a wood pattern maker. His RAF service file shows that he was 5 feet 3 inches in height, and had a 30 inch chest. I wonder if he is in this photograph; if so, I think he would be the man in the bottom right.

The only other man I know of who may have been in this photograph as a servant is Private Thomas Richardson, Service no. 2959, who was Captain Kenneth Waterhouse's servant when he was killed in August 1916. Again thanks to Brian I am aware that the Heywood Advertiser for 18 August 1916 printed a letter from Kenneth Waterhouse to Thomas Richardson's widow in which he said that Richardson had been his servant for "many months", so possibly since October 1915. The paper also printed the photograph below, but the quality is not such as to make it easy to see whether he features in the photograph above.

 

11 hours ago, alantwo said:

2nd Lieutenants Frizelle and Laughlin are included on the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers roll embarking Minominee on 2/5/15 at Alexandria.

Thank you, Alan