Help identifying officers of the 2/5th LF Part 2 – “C” Coy, Ramsden, Simon & Harker

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

This is a sister thread to an earlier thread Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill & Abbotts - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org), but focussing on different officers, as set out in the heading to this thread.

With apologies for any duplication, the background is that my GF, Norman Hall went to France with the 2/5th LF on 3 May 1915, and included in his memoir a group photograph of the officers of the 2/5th LF taken in Bedford on 1 May 1915. In that photograph none of the officers were named, apart from himself (2^nd from the left in the back row, as you look at the photograph). I have made considerable progress with identifying the officers in the photograph by comparing it with other photos of named individuals that my GF pasted into his memoir, and with a lot of help from others, including in the earlier thread referenced above.

below is a JPEG version of the group photograph on which I have superimposed numbered labels, just over half of them bearing the names of individuals. In most cases I am reasonably certain that the men labelled with names have been correctly identified, but in one or two cases I am less certain, and in two cases the names are followed by question marks to indicate that they those names are provisional at this stage. If anyone believes that any man who is to be identified in this thread is actually someone who already has a different name allocated in the photograph below, please do feel free to say so, as there is plenty of room for error in this process.

Where insignia of rank are visible I have also inserted a rank on the labels which do not yet have a name. In most cases the insignia speak for themselves, but the earlier thread highlighted that there may be room for discussion as to whether the man at the far right of the front row (as you look at the photograph) is a captain or lieutenant.

       

Below is a PNG version of the same photograph, kindly produced by @PRC with the labels omitted so that more of the men can be seen, with just the numbers inserted in yellow for ease of reference.

In his memoir my GF gives a list of 31 officers who proceeded to France with the 2/5th LF on 3 May 1915. Included in the 31 names are the MO and the Chaplain, but as all the men in the group photograph wear the insignia of the LF the MO and Chaplain were not present when the photo was taken. Because the two men at either end of the back row are “photo-shopped” into the photograph, presumably because they were not present when it was taken on 1 May 1915, but did proceed to France with the others on 3 May 1915, it is very likely that all the LF officers who went to France on 3 May 1915 can be seen in the finished version of the photograph, but my GF’s list suggests that there was one officer in the photograph who did not in the end do so.

Below is my GF’s list, omitting the MO and the Chaplain. The men who are asterisked are those who are the subject of this post (technically Malcolm Young of “C” Company is also covered by this post according to its heading, but I have not asterisked him because I am confident that I have been able to identify him already).

Finally, courtesy of the Bury Times and Bury Archives, I am including a copy of a photograph to which @brianmorris547 has drawn my attention, which shows the officers of the 5^th Reserve Battalion of the LF on 5 December 1914, many of whom proceeded to France with the 2/5^th LF on 3 May 1915.

So, starting with Captain Geoffrey Clegg Hutchinson, who was gazetted as a temporary captain in the LG of 26 March 1915, and who features in the Bury Times 5^th Reserve photograph, on the far right of the middle row (from the viewer’s perspective), here is another photograph of him from my GF’s memoir, probably taken in Senlis in September 1915.

Googling him reveals that he has an entry in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Hutchinson,_Baron_Ilford (which I don’t think existed when I published my GF’s memoir in November 2020, as I remember it being very much more difficult at that stage to find information about him!). The Wikipedia entry as always has to be viewed with some caution, not least because it omits to mention that he was gazetted as a full captain in the LG of 4 August 1917, but it nevertheless provides a conveniently accessible short biography, and also a photograph of him derived from a portrait photograph in the National Portrait Gallery.

He was born on 14 August 1893, so 21 when the group photograph was taken. His original career in civilian life was as a barrister, but later he entered politics and became MP for Ilford/North Ilford, ultimately being knighted in 1952.

There is another photograph of him, also derived from a portrait photograph in the national Portrait Gallery, on this link: https://npgshop.org.uk/products/geoffrey-clegg-hutchinson-baron-ilford-of-bury-npg-x168526-card .

It may be of interest to members of this forum that he was responsible for the initial collection of papers for the official history of the Lancashire Fusilier Regiment during WW1, The History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914-15, the publication of which was eventually completed in 1949 by Major General John Cecil Latter, who, as 2^nd Lieutenant J.C. Latter, had been Hutchinson’s fellow officer in the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers as at 3 May 1915, so also present in the Bedford Group photograph (already identified as 3^rd man from the right in the back row). 

I have formed an idea as to which of the unidentified captains in the Bedford group photograph is Geoffrey Hutchinson, but my initial view has been proved wrong on more than one occasion, so I would welcome someone else’s input on this.

Edited 3 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To move H. Waterhouse to Part 1 of thread

[PRC]

Well I've been holding back to allow others first dibs but looks like no-one is ready to bite

I'm only tentative about this and have two nominations - and at first glance the two officers might look very different. It would also mean that I would have to concede one of my nominations is a Captain despite my views put forward on the  "B" Company thread!

I found a couple more pictures of Geoffrey Clegg Hutchinson, but both are from later in life.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Picture sources:

1914: Bury Times 5th December 1914 sourced Bury Archives - see above.
1915: See OP, source @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
Unknown, (but possibly same photoshoot as the 1954 picture): Courtesy The Peerage website. https://www.thepeerage.com/p19145.htm
1954: National Photographic Gallery. https://npgshop.org.uk/products/geoffrey-clegg-hutchinson-baron-ilford-of-bury-npg-x168526-card
1962: National Photographic Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw227214/Geoffrey-Clegg-Hutchinson-Baron-Ilford-of-Bury?LinkID=mp76581&role=sit&rNo=1

While searching for references to Geoffrey online I did come across mention of a small photograph album from the Clegg side of the family, and apparently it does include pictures of him. It is held at Bury Museum and Archive under reference FHU/2/1/4/2/2 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/9df28959-cf81-437b-818a-77803d280fa2

And while trying to delve a bit more into that I came across a blog post with pictures of his brother, John Summerscales Hutchinson and his mother. The family were informed on the 20th September 1914 that John, a Captain in the 2nd Battalion, South Lancashire Regiment, was missing. There then followed increasingly desperate attempts by the family to find out his fate with hopes rising that he had survived only to be dashed. Sadly it would eventually be confirmed that he was killed in action on the 25th August 1914 at Solesmes. https://burygreatwar.wordpress.com/2015/10/11/a-mothers-search/

In passing the blogpost mentions that the artefacts, (letters exchanged with the war office, official telegrams, etc) were part of a large collection of family documents handed over to the archive by Geoffrey Hutchinson in the early seventies.

So merely a possibility and perhaps one you have already explored, but there may be photographs there of him while in the Great War - perhap even his own copies of the Bedford and Senlis pictures which would go a long way to confirm the right man has been identified. And of course the holy grail would be if he had other pictures of the officers of the 2/5th Battalion, even your grandfather, from those early months overseas in France.

My fingers are crossed for you - so probably even more typos than normal

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 22 February by PRC
Yes - typos!

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

@PRC I knew I was no good at this - I picked out the only one of the three possibles who you have not considered to be a candidate, Officer 20!

I should at this point post the only other photograph I have of E.C. Simon, taken between 8 May and 20 July 1915. He was aged about 27 at the time of this photograph. I don't have any other photographs of Captain Ramsden.

17 hours ago, PRC said:

While searching for references to Geoffrey online I did come across mention of a small photograph album from the Clegg side of the family, and apparently it does include pictures of him. It is held at Bury Museum and Archive under reference FHU/2/1/4/2/2 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/9df28959-cf81-437b-818a-77803d280fa2.

I did come across the reference to this album myself, but, if I have understood it correctly, it says that the period covered by the album is 1875 to 1895 when Geoffrey would have been aged 2, so I'm not sure that it will be much help. The other documents and papers might be of interest, though. As you say, fingers crossed!

 

Edited 23 February by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[The Inspector]

Hi All,

A bit more family history and another photo of Eric Conrad Simon. Apologies if you already have this.

https://www.bedales.org.uk/home/about-bedales/history-bedales/wwi/eric-conrad-simon-14091887-16081915

Regards Barry

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

5 hours ago, The Inspector said:

A bit more family history and another photo of Eric Conrad Simon. Apologies if you already have this.

Thank you so much for alerting me to this @The Inspector . I waasn't aware of it, though I really should have been, as I see that it comes up readily on a google search. I think because he died so young, and so early in the war, I assumed that there would be nothing on the intenet, but I should have considered the possibility of a school tribute. My grandfather , who was the Battalion signalling officer when the 2/5th first went to France, had an informal arrangement where he messed with "D" (aka "Z") Company while the Battalion were at Arques between May and July 1915 for further training before they were deployed at the front.

Now that I have done a google search I see that this site also comes up https://www.jewsfww.uk/eric-conrad-simon-2931.php , which repeats much of the information in the Bedales tribute, but also has a second photograph.

Tricia

Edited 23 February by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[PRC]

22 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

 I knew I was no good at this - I picked out the only one of the three possibles who you have not considered to be a candidate, Officer 20!

Don't do yourself down - these are subjective comparisons rather than a science and your choices are just as valid as mine

My tentative suggestions of Officer 30 as a match for Geoffrey Clegg Hutchinson is as much to do with general demeanour as it is to do with any precise element of facial match. The picture at Senlis, the undated picture and the 1954 picture all look like a man who has seen the joke that others have missed. Officer 30, with his walking stick the wrong way up and looking away from the camera could be doing the officer photograph equivalent of bunny ears! But if the match was done on eyes alone, then Officer 29 would be a serious contender.

And to make the subjectivity point I can't even come up with a potential match for Eric Conrad Simon as the three known images of him vary fundamentally with each other - in the picture of him in civilian attire he could be a match for Officer 13, the man currently believed to be Duckworth. In formal military uniform he could be 20 or 7, while with the picture taken of him in France I haven't got a clue.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Picture Sources

[a] The JewsFWW website https://www.jewsfww.uk/eric-conrad-simon-2931.php have sourced the picture from the Bedales School Archive https://www.bedales.org.uk/home/about-bedales/history-bedales/wwi/eric-conrad-simon-14091887-16081915 . It has also originally appeared in the edition of The Sphere magazine dated 25th September 1915. Courtesy UK Photo Archive.

https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/the-sphere-portraits-s/h9CD9DB68#h9cd9db68

[b] The JewsFWW website also references him attending Rugby School, so you'd expect he have an entry and picture in the published School Roll of Honour - but as far as I can tell he doesn't. https://rugbyschoolarchives.co.uk/authenticated/Browse.aspx?BrowseID=17&tableName=ta_ephemera
The picture is stated to also appear in the British Jewry Book of Honour - the relevant page can be seen here https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/pages-from-the-british-jewry-book-of-honour/hE42875E4#he42875e4

Cheers,
Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 23/02/2024 at 22:56, PRC said:

My tentative suggestions of Officer 30 as a match for Geoffrey Clegg Hutchinson is as much to do with general demeanour as it is to do with any precise element of facial match. The picture at Senlis, the undated picture and the 1954 picture all look like a man who has seen the joke that others have missed. Officer 30, with his walking stick the wrong way up and looking away from the camera could be doing the officer photograph equivalent of bunny ears! But if the match was done on eyes alone, then Officer 29 would be a serious contender.

And to make the subjectivity point I can't even come up with a potential match for Eric Conrad Simon as the three known images of him vary fundamentally with each other - in the picture of him in civilian attire he could be a match for Officer 13, the man currently believed to be Duckworth. In formal military uniform he could be 20 or 7, while with the picture taken of him in France I haven't got a clue.

So, starting with Simon, and acknowledging that your skill at this task, subjective as it may be, @PRC ,is much better than mine (as witness your almost certainly correct identifications of Barnsdale and Barwood), to me the three known images of Simon don't seem so very different from each other, although the curly hair in the civilian photograph, totally hidden by the military cap in the other two, gives a very different overall impression, while the moustache in the two military photos covers some of the top lip.

Although the Jewish website refers to him as having attended Rugby School, I wonder whether that is an error, based on the fact that his three brothers attended that school (and two of them sadly have their details on the rool of honour). There is no reference in the narrative of the Jewish website to his first having attended Rugby School, but instead the narrative merely repeats the line in the Bedales tribute to the effect that it is not known why Bedales was chosen for the fourth son. It is possible that he attended Rugby School briefly, didn't like it, and was moved to Bedales, but, if so, the attendance at Rugby must have been very brief, as he attended Bedales from 1899 to 1906, which would be the normal span for attendance at a senior school.

That still leaves the question, however, as to which he is on the group photograph.

Regarding, Geoffrey Hutchinson, I like your description of him looking, in some of the photographs, like a man who has seen a joke that others have missed. From my GF's description of him, using his nickname Hutty, he does seem to have been a larger than life character, a bit of a daredevil, always up for a lark; for example:

We used to swim to an old barge. Had great sports – made rafts – diving boards etc. Hutty was always in great form on the unofficial bathing parades. Once he rode down a board on one of my bicycles into the canal.

and

Hutty excelled himself by riding on his horse full tilt into a piece of barbed wire and came a terrific “purler”. He damaged his nose and lip, which was thicker than anything on earth – so the M.O. said.

I also quite like this story about Dunkirk from the Manchester Evening News for 11 March 1980 (which also mentions another of the 2/5th LF officers present in the group photograph, 2nd Lieutenant B.H. Rothband).

 

Having said that, I am not sure that Officer 30 looks as though he is enjoying a private joke. To me he seems to be a rather dreamy character, whose thoughts are elsewhere, not really on the photographer, which might fit with Simon, though, like you, I don't see muvh facial resemblance to Simon.

I understand that what he is holding nonchalantly across his lap is a fox hunting style riding whip with a deer horn handle at its base, which, if correct, might suggest that he came from country gentleman stock, not someone like my GF, whose family were in commerce, and who only began to learn to ride while the 2/5th LF were in training at Arques in June 1915. I am not sure whether this much narrows down the choice of men who could be Officer 30, though. 

If we have got all the identifications so far correct, and all the recently made up captains were in fact wearing the insignia of captains in the photograph, and Officer 30 is wearing the insignia of a captain (I appreciate that this last may be a big "if" for you, @PRC ), then we have three unidentified captains, Officers 20, 29 and 30, and three captains who have not been identified in the group photograph, namely, Hutchinson, Simon, and Ramsden.

Would you mind humouring me, Peter, and putting side by side all the known photographs of Hutchinson and Simon, together with the the faces of Oficers 20, 29, and 30?

Tricia

Edited 25 February by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[FROGSMILE]

Good job Peter.  I do think those last three images are of the same man.

[PRC]

On 24/02/2024 at 16:52, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Would you mind humouring me, Peter, and putting side by side all the known photographs of Hutchinson and Simon, together with the the faces of Oficers 20, 29, and 30?

Apologies - missed this one.

Putting them all side by side using the quick and dirty method ends up with images too small to be of much use. I can do it in a more time consuming way but to get thins started here are the known images of Hutchinson - 

and the three officers -

and Simon

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 25 February by PRC
Typo

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Apologies - missed this one.

No problem, Peter, I don't think taking 20 hours to respond requires an apology! Actually I thought I was a little cheeky asking you to do it, as I should have been able to do it myself using the technique you told me about for converting pdfs to JPEG, but anyway, I'm glad that I did so, as I am sure that you have made a better job than I would have done. I don't think you need to spend any longer than you have already, because, with the cropped photos from the group photograph in the middle, and the known photos of the two men above and below, it is easy to do the comparisons.

Taking Simon first, we know that in pre-war civilian life he did not have a moustache. I appreciate that that may also have applied to Hutchinson, but I can definitely see the moustache-less man of the known photo of Simon marked "a" in Officer 29, while the other two known photos of Simon also seem to fit with Officer 29, especially the eyebrows and ears. The moustache on those two photos, on the other hand, doesn't look as dark and bushy as the moustaches on Officers 20 and 30.

Regarding Hutchinson, I still find myself preferring Officer 20 over Officer 30, because the wide, quite thin, but potentially mobile, mouth and the eyebrows seem to fit with all the known photos of him, while the moustache and the bags under the eyes fit with those on the known photo of him at Senlis (I think the dark area immediately under the nose in that photo looks like shadow rather than moustache if you zoom in). The cheeks of Officer 20 look rather puffier than Hutchinson's cheeks in the Senlis photo, but possibly that might be the angle of the camera, the effect of 4 or 5 months "in the field" in between the two photos, or the effect of drawing on a cigarette in the Senlis photo. I am also not sure about the ears of Officer 20, unless the top of the visible ear of that man is hidden in shadow, which I think that it may be.

If looking at Officer 30 for Hutchinson, I would also have doubts about the ears, as the top of Officer 30's right ear (the ear to our left) seems much further away from the officer's hat than is the case in respect of Hutchinson's same ear (and also the other ear) in the Senlis photo. Also, in none of the known photos of Hutchinson does his mouth have the downward turn that Officer 30's mouth seems to have. 

What do you think?

 

[PRC]

On 25/02/2024 at 15:51, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

What do you think?

I think that sometime I concentrate so much on parts of the faces that sometimes I can’t see the wood for the trees

For me looking at Simon the one area that looks closest to constant is the chin -  although there is a caveat to come.

Meanwhile, and they may just be blemishes on the picture, officers 20 and 29 appear to have chin dimple\ cleft chins – which at best might be present on Simon picture 'b', but I’m not convinced.

Generally speaking I tend to downplay the apparent width of the face as that is a consequence of many factors, including photography format used, aperture settings, depth of focus, (if any), distance from subject, etc, etc. So I’m not thrown by the apparent comparative narrowness of face of picture 'b', certainly by comparison to the picture in France.

For the next few bit of comparison, I tend to draw lines in my head more like latitude and longitude on a globe rather than a grid.

Moving up to the bottom lip, in all the three known pictures of Simon and using those mental lines, the width is not much greater than the nose and doesn’t appear to cross the halfway point of the eye socket – even in the picture in France where he is comparatively relaxed.

Officers 20 and 29 both appear to have bottom lips that pass the mid-point of the eye socket. Difficult to tell with 30 but I think it’s the closest to Simon.

Much the same is true of the top lip with or without the moustache. Relaxed, possibly even smiling, the picture of Simon in France does appear to reach pass the mid-point – but the Bedford pictures of Officers 20 and 29 show men who are already just as wide when serious.

However Simon does seem to struggle to grow a moustache, which potentially puts officer 20 in the frame.

Using one of those latitude lines, the lobes of Simon’s ears looks like they are below the nostrils. The same doesn’t appear to be true of officer 20. Officers 29 and 30 seem more of a match.

Comparing picture 'a' and the one from France of Simon, his left ears looks fairly similar but picture b throws me a bit. Tips of ears however in all three images looks to be just below the level of the eyebrows. Possibly true of all three officers 20, 29 & 30, although difficult to make out the detail on officer 20.

From what we can see in picture a of Simon his left eyebrow arches down and has hairs down to a level of the top eyelid. Difficult to make out that detail in picture 'b', and I may just be kidding myself it's there with the picture in France. I’m not sure if that is true of officer 20 and 29, and there is no discernable detail in that area on officer 30.

Only in the picture in France does the bottom eyelids of Simon appear puffy. Now something may have happened before he left the UK, but I would suspect it relates to the impact of war on his body – or that he is smiling and this has creased up his eyes. Officer 20 definitely has puffy lower eyelids all the time. I don’t think officer 29 has and can’t be sure about 30.

Which brings us to the nose – is it a roman nose or not. Picture 'a' suggests not, and the other two pictures may give a false impression that it is because of where the shadow falls. Width seems consistant, but even allowing for the angles of the head I’m not sure of the relative position of the nostrils and whether there is any overhang at the tip. Our three officer candidates don’t appear to have a roman nose. Officers 20 and 29 have apparently a similar width to the nose, although officer 20’s seems more bulbous. Officer 30 I just can’t make out enough detail.

So I’m still not sure who is the best match for Simon.

As for Hutchinson, he too lacks the cleft chin \ chin dimple. If officers 20 and 29 have them, and it’s not just a blemish on the photograph, then that points us at officer 30. But his top lip appears to reach almost three quarters of the way across the eye socket, which would favour officer 20 then officer 29. Bottom lip is almost as wide as top lip and is mush wider than nose, which is possibly more officer 29. Hutchinsons’ eyebrows appear more arched than Simon, and appear to end up on his temple. That matches officers 20 and 29, but detail isn’t visible on officer 30. Ear lobes appear to either at or just below nostril level, matching officers 29 and 30. Ear tip is on the eyebrow level, again favouring officer 29. Nose shape of Hutchinson is probably closer to how I’d expect Simon’s to have looked – and so the same problem as Simon when it comes to examining this aspect of officers 20, 29 and 30.The only picture I can see of Hutchinson where he appears to have bags under his eyes is the one at Senlis, - but the contemporary picture of Simon shows him with bags as well. Could be a co-incidence but in both instances each look comparatively relaxed and so may be smiling or at least at ease and happy. Ear wise 29 seems the best match for both inner and outer ear shape, but detail is lacking on the picture of officer 30. I also wish I could get a true gauge of how deepset Hutchinsons' eyes were as that’s where for me the picture at Senlis looks closer to officer 29.

Because I’m musing these things while working on the images I wouldn’t normally write these all down. They would just come together to form an impression of whether the match was good or not. I’d tentatively go with 29 at Hutchinson and 30 as Simon but not with any great conviction.

Cheers,
Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 27/02/2024 at 00:39, PRC said:

I’d tentatively go with 29 at Hutchinson and 30 as Simon but not with any great conviction.

Thank you, Peter, for such an in depth commentary, which serves to underline what a very difficult exercise this is. I have taken a little time to study your reasoning, and can now see exactly where you are coming from. I am more than happy to go with your provisional conclusion that Hutchinson is Officer 29 and Simon is Officer 30, from which follows the provisional conclusion that Officer 20 is Ramsden. Unless we find more photos of any of them, that is probably the best we can do for now, and I am very grateful to you for your help.

So it is time to move on, I think.

The "unknowns" are gradually diminishing in number, and I have been looking at Lieutenant R.W. Kirkman. I don't have any other photos to compare him with, I'm afraid, apart from the photograph of the 5th Reserve battalion in Southport, where, fortunately, he seems just a bit clearer than some of the others. I wonder whether it is possible to conclude that he is Officer 12. there is little to go on other than the facial hair and the fact that the height differential between Officer 12 and Officer 11, if the latter is Duckworth, seems about right.

In the sister thread mentioned above, @brianmorris547 had been able to establish that he was aged 20 at the time of the 1911 census, so about 24 at the date of the group photo in Bedford.

He left the 2/5th to be invalided back to the UK in July 1915 following an attack on the front line trench while they were stationed at Laventie,.

Brian has also learned from the Manchester Evening Chronicle for 29 January 1916, courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive, that he was best man at Duckworth's wedding about then.

I know from My GF's memoir that he was in Colchester in January 1917, so probably with the 3/5th LF on Home Service at that stage. I don't know whether he went to France with them on 1 March 1917. His service record survives reference WO 374/39937. so another one for me to check when I next go to Kew.

The LG entries show the following:

13 October 1914 - 2nd Lieutenant wef 7 October 1914

7 January 1915 - Temporary Lieutenant wef 23 December 1914

29 May 1916 - Temporary Captain wef 5 April 1916

30 May 1917 - 2nd Lieutenant R.W. Kirkman relinquishes temporary rank [of Captain] on alteration in posting wef 30 March 1917 [does this mean he didn't go to France with the 3/5th LF, or, at least, didn't stay with them very long over there?]

11 February 1918 - Lieutenant wef 1 June 1918

19 August 1918 - Special Appointment - Cl. H.H. [What is that?] Lieutenant R.W. Kirkman, Lan. Fus. T.F., whilst empld in a Record Office. 22 April 1918

6 May 1919 - Lieutenant R. W. Kirkman, 5th Lan.Fus., T.F., from Cl. H.H., whilst empld. in a Record Office. 6 May 1919

 

Edited 6 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Just to say that, regarding Captain Simon, I have emailed the archives at Bedales in case they can turn up any more photos of him - maybe one holding the fox hunting style riding whip while he was a farmer?

Regarding Captain Hutchinson, I am wondering whether I was a little hasty in assuming that he has a moustache in the photograph of the 5th Reserve officers in Southport? Quite a few of the officers in that photograph have very dark lines around the mouth, including my GF, who is in the back row, 2nd from our left, and who was definitely clean-shaven. Captain Hutchinson certainly had a moustache in the photograph taken at Senlis in September 1915, but perhaps not as early as May 1915? If not, that would make him an even better candidate for Officer 29.

Regarding Kirkman, I thought that I would try Peter's trick of putting the images side by side - sadly, not with anything like Peter's expertise, but here we go:

The photograph on the left is from the Bury Times 5th December 1914 sourced Bury Archives, while that on the right is from the group photo of the 2/5th LF officers taken in Bedford on 1 May 1915, pasted into his memoir by my GF.

Is there enough here to conclude that Officer 12 is Lieutenant R.W. Kirkman? As mentioned above, if officer 13 in the Bedford photo is Lieutenant Duckworth as surmised in the sister thread, the height differential between the two men in the December 1914 photograph and the May 1915 photograph would be consistent.

[brianmorris547]

@A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy I have just found this very bad picture of Eric Simon in the Alderley and Wilmslow Advertiser 03/09/1915. The bio is readable.

LG 29089 02/03/1915 as 2/Lt 5 LFs - Possible 1911 Census match at Hove as Eric Simon.

Various papers report his death and various 1916 papers report on his Will. His address was Lythe Hall Farm, Haslemere, Surrey and his wife was Winifred.

Brian

Edited 5 March by brianmorris547

[FROGSMILE]

I’m pretty confident based on your side-by-side comparison that No 12 is indeed Kirkman.  All the key comparators match.

[PRC]

On 28/02/2024 at 21:14, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I have been looking at Lieutenant R.W. Kirkman. I don't have any other photos to compare him with, I'm afraid, apart from the photograph of the 5th Reserve battalion in Southport, where, fortunately, he seems just a bit clearer than some of the others. I wonder whether it is possible to conclude that he is Officer 12. there is little to go on other than the facial hair and the fact that the height differential between Officer 12 and Officer 11, if the latter is Duckworth, seems about right.

In the sister thread mentioned above, @brianmorris547 had been able to establish that he was aged 20 at the time of the 1911 census, so about 24 at the date of the group photo in Bedford.

He left the 2/5th to be invalided back to the UK in July 1915 following an attack on the front line trench while they were stationed at Laventie,.

Brian has also learned from the Manchester Evening Chronicle for 29 January 1916, courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive, that he was best man at Duckworth's wedding about then.

I know from My GF's memoir that he was in Colchester in January 1917, so probably with the 3/5th LF on Home Service at that stage. I don't know whether he went to France with them on 1 March 1917. His service record survives reference WO 374/39937. so another one for me to check when I next go to Kew.

The MiC for Reginald William Kirkman shows him first landing in France with the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers in May 1915. Highest rank reached in a Theatre of War was Captain. When he applied for his medals in June 1922 he gave a contact address of 7 Meadow Hill Road, Tunbridge Wells.

On the 1921 Census of England & Wales there is a Reginald William Kirkman, born Leigh, Lancashire c1890 who is potentially a match. He is recorded in a household at Hastings, Sussex, which includes:-
Adleffery Popham, born Yeovil, Somerset c1871
Clara Kirkman, born Sussex c1890
Doris Lena Hyde, born Somerset c1897
Flora A Hyde, born Sherborne, Dorset c1866
and 5 others

1891 Census of England & Wales (taken 5^th April 1891).
45 St Helens Road, Pennington, Leigh, Reginald W, aged 9 months, born Leigh Lancashire, son of Charles, (35, Elementary Schoolteacher) and Patience (34).
1901 Census of England & Wales
10 Hamer Street, Radcliffe, Reginald Wm, aged 10, with parents Charles, still an Elementary Schoolteacher, and Patience.
1911 Census of England & Wales,
10 Hamer Street, Radcliffe, Reginald W, aged 20, at home with parents Charles and Patience but recorded as an Undergraduate at Cambridge. He is shown as their only living child.

The marriage of a Reginald W. Kirkman to a Clara Howe was registered in the Colchester District in Q4 1916 – which would tie in with the time he was known to be stationed there.

No obvious children recorded in England & Wales – the first one registered with this combination of surname and mothers’ maiden name was in 1931 but then there are births in the same District through to 1943.

The edition of the Sussex Agricultural Express dated 10^th June 1921 records his appointment as an Assistant Master at Rye Grammar School. May be more details in the fuller article.

The 1939 Register has an 1890 born Reginald W. Kirkman recorded at Shoreham Grammer School, Church Street, Kingstone By Sea, Shoreham-By-Sea, Sussex.

At the fifteenth meeting of the Royal Geographical Society, in the 1941-42 seesion, which took place on the 16^th February 1942, a Reginald William Kirkman, M.A., was elected a member.  https://archive.org/details/sim_geographical-journal_1942-03_99_3/page/160/mode/2up?q=%22Reginald+William+Kirkman%22&view=theater

The death of a Reginald William Kirkman, born 26^th June 1890*, was recorded in the Brighton District in Q3 1972. The 1972 Probate Calendar records that a Reginald William Kirkman of 64, Welbeck Avenue, Hove, died on the 1^st July 1972.

* So Reginald was just short of his 25^th birthday when the Bedford picture was taken.

But so far no additional pictures.

Cheers,
Peter

[brianmorris547]

LG 29108 19/03/1915 names 2/Lt Edgar Robinson Ramsden 5 LFs

The only matching birth registration is in the March quarter 1871 in Huddersfield making him 40 or thereabouts in 1911.

The only possible is Edgar Ramsden age 39 single b Greenfield, Yorks, with brother Harry, shown as brothers in law to Ralph Barton at 2 Park Terrace, Mossley, Lancs.

The Rochdale Times 24/03/1915 shows him as 2/Lt 6 Bn LFs but I suspect this is a misprint. 

He would be 44 in 1915.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you once again, Frogsmile, Brian and Peter for your contributions.

Thank you especially for the additional photograph of Eric Simon, @brianmorris547 - it's a bit of a surprise to find a photograph of him in uniform where he is clean-shaven. Presumably it is most likely to have been a photograph supplied by the family, possibly one they had taken when he obtained a commission in the Lancashire Fusiliers in January 1915? I wonder whether @PRC thinks that it cast any further light on which officer is Captain Simon in the Bedford photograph, or is it just too dark?

Thank you also for the information about Ramsden. Could Officer 20 be 44, do you think?

And thank you , Peter, for the additional information about Kirkman. I found a school photograph of Shoreham Grammar School in 1946 on this site  https://www.shorehambysea.com/shoreham-grammar-school/ , when Kirkman would have been 56, so would have been expected to be still teaching, but all the staff who might have been that age have been named and none is Kirkman. I couldn't see a contact for a school archivist on Shoreham College's website.

Rye Grammar School is now the Thomas Peacock Community College. There is an entry in the National Archives catalogue relating to the school  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/ab953833-4919-4d5e-9265-bf3ca4cb411a , the documents themselves being held by East Sussex and Brighton and Hove Records Office, but the description of the documents does not suggest that they include school or staff photographs from the 1920s and 1930s.

Edited 17 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[brianmorris547]

I was looking for a E R Ramsden aged about 22 not 44. I am not sure that I have the right man. Both Edgar and Harry Ramsden on the 1911 Census were single and Cotton Mill workers.

Re Eric Simon. Both his brothers died in the war and these photographs might show a family resemblance. 

Victor Herman Simon MC 3 Field Squadron RE - London Illustrated News 30/06/1917. Other papers show that he was awarded the MC at Loos on 27/09/1915 for consolidation the position held by a Cavalry Brigade.  

Harry Simon (Henry Hemrick Simon RFA (T), according to SDGW d of w 08/09/1917). - Macclesfield Times 14/09/1917. He was in Egypt with 2 East Lancs Brigade RFA according to Eric's obituary but I could not find him in the 1917 WDs of 42 Div Artillery.

BNA via FMP

EDIT; The Photo of Harry is actually LT F White

Brian

 

Edited 7 March by brianmorris547

[PRC]

10 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I wonder whether @PRC thinks that it cast any further light on which officer is Captain Simon in the Bedford photograph, or is it just too dark?

I’m obviously juggling too many things at that moment as I thought I’d come back on this. To me the picture of Eric in the Aldersley and Wilmslow Advertiser of the 3^rd September 1915 looks like it could be a newspaper block copy of the picture previously posted from the Jews in the First World War website – itself physically cropped from it’s originally dark background which I presume is still present in the newspaper version. Because of the tones used in producing the newspaper image I’m not sure that his top lip is clean shaven.

If it is a case of two versions of the same image then apart from an added sharpness in a few areas it doesn’t for me add much to the search for a matching face in the May 1915 picture.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Picture Sources

[a] The JewsFWW website https://www.jewsfww.uk/eric-conrad-simon-2931.php have sourced the picture from the Bedales School Archive https://www.bedales.org.uk/home/about-bedales/history-bedales/wwi/eric-conrad-simon-14091887-16081915 . It has also originally appeared in the edition of The Sphere magazine dated 25th September 1915. Courtesy UK Photo Archive.

[b] The JewsFWW website also references him attending Rugby School, so you'd expect he have an entry and picture in the published School Roll of Honour - but as far as I can tell he doesn't. https://rugbyschoolarchives.co.uk/authenticated/Browse.aspx?BrowseID=17&tableName=ta_ephemera
The picture is stated to also appear in the British Jewry Book of Honour - the relevant page can be seen here https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/pages-from-the-british-jewry-book-of-honour/hE42875E4#he42875e4

[c] Aldersley and Wilmslow Advertiser 030915 sourced British Newspaper Archice via FMP

Cheers,
Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 07/03/2024 at 11:39, PRC said:

To me the picture of Eric in the Aldersley and Wilmslow Advertiser of the 3^rd September 1915 looks like it could be a newspaper block copy of the picture previously posted from the Jews in the First World War website

Yes, I see, you may well be right.

While on the subject of facial hair, however, I am wondering whether I was right to be so sure that Goldsmith is Officer 21, as, having re-examined the evidence that I had for this, I realise that it was limited to the photograph of the 5th Reserve Battalion officers taken in Southport in December 1914, because I thought that Goldsmith, who is named in that photograph, had a beard, and that Officer 21 was the only real contender, given that Officer 25 is certainly Captain Cummins. But, after all, I am not so sure that the man named as Goldsmith in the 5th Reserve Battalion has a beard. If not, then potentially Officer 21 might be him.

Officer 21 and 22 are, I think, between them, Goldsmith and Ramsden, and it is merely a question of which way round.

Courtesy of @brianmorris547 we know from the post to which I have provided a link below on the sister thread that George Hartley Golsdmith was already qualified as an architect in 1911, and that his father was aged 55 in that year, so that Hartley Goldsmith was perhaps an older man, perhaps in his 30s in 1915. This would also fit with his being a friend of Kenneth Waterhouse in Hale, who was about 37 in 1915.

Goldsmith had become 2nd Lieutenant in the 5th Battalion LF wef 7 October 1914 (published in the LG of 14 Ocober 1914), then temporary Lieutenant wef 23 December 1914 (LG of 7 January 1914), then temporary Captain wef 6 March 1915 (LG of 26 March 1915). He was then seconded for duty with the RE wef 17 February 1916 (LG of 16 May 1916), and wef the same date was confirmed as temporary Captain with the RE (LG of 8 May 1916). He was Adjutant with the RE wef 4 June 1917 (LG of  21 July 1917) until 10 October 1918 (LG of 16 November 1918). On 31 October 1917 he was Mentioned in Dispatches, again courtesy of Brian's post below, and he was awarded the MC (LG of 3 June 1918).

He became acting Major with the RE wef 6 November 1918 (LG of 7 January 1918), then, on completion of his service, he relinquished his commission as a temporary Captain and the rank of acting Major, and was granted the rank of Major wef 11 April 1919 (LG of 7 August 1919, corrected LG of 23 January 1920).

So, overall a successful military career.

 

Captain Ramsden, was like Goldsmith, promoted to Captain quite quickly, having received his commission as 2nd Lieutenant with the 2/5th LF wef from 23 January 1915 (LG of 22 March 1915, corrected LG of 13 April 1915), then promoted to temporary Captain wef 25 April 1915 (LG of 20 May 1915), so up to that point only a little behind Goldsmith.

The Battalion WD of the 2/5th LF in an entry dated 16 July 1915 states that Captain Ramsden had gone to hospital sick the previous day, and there is a further entry dated 22 July 1915 states that he went to England sick. My GF makes not mention of him thereafter, nor does the WD, and I don't know what happened to him.

The LG of 4 August 1917, when there seems to have been quite a shake up of the Territorials, with some individuals being confirmed in the permanent equivalents of ranks that they had held on a temporary basis for many months, even years, and others being demoted, E.R Ramsden was confirmed as Lieutenant, but relinquished the rank of temporary Captain, so, in effect, a demotion.

So the question is, which is more likely to be Goldsmith and which Ramsden out of Officers 21 and 22. If Goldsmith has a beard in the photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve Battalion in Southport the answer is easy, but, if not, it is not so easy, though Officer 22 looks pretty well self-assured, and, if you can tell such things by appearances, might fit the character of Goldsmith better.

Goldsmith's service record survives, reference WO 339/59603, but I have not yet looked at it. There is no sign of a service record for Ramsden.

Edited 17 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[PRC]

Another Royal Warren of rabbit holes I’m afraid

The MiC for George Hartley Goldsmith, M.C., shows him as a Captain in the 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers when he first landed in France on the 2^nd May 1915. He was subsequently a Major in the Royal Engineers.

Unfortunately from the perspective of tracking him down on the 1921 Census of England & Wales, when he applied for his medals in October 1921 he gave a contact address of 85 Rue Carnot, St. Omer, Pas de Calais, France.

If he was born in England & Wales then the only likely match in the GRO records is a George Hartley Goldsmith, mothers’ maiden name Barrs, whose birth was registered with the civil authorities in the Altrincham District of Cheshire in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1885.

The baptism of a George Hartley Goldsmith, no date of birth recorded, took place in the parish of St. John, Altrincham on the 13^th May 1885. His parents were Henry, an architect, and Lucy Jane. The family were then living at Chesham Place. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NHW6-N68

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales the 6 year old George Hartley Goldsmith, born Bowdon, Cheshire, was recorded living at Odstone, Stamford Road, Bowdon. This was the household of his parents Henry, (35, Architect) and Lucy Jane, (27). George had a younger brother, Henry Leonard, (3) and a younger sister Mary, (under 1 month). The household was supported by two live in servants.

The birth of a Henry Leonard Goldsmith, mothers’ maiden name Barrs, ,was registered in the Altrincham District in Q3 1887.

The birth of an Olive Mary Goldsmith, mothers’ maiden name Barrs, ,was registered in the Altrincham District in Q2 1891. (The GRO reports birth by quarter registered, which isn’t automatically the same as quarter born).

There is a visitor recorded in the Goldsmith household on the 1891 Census, a Mary Ann Barrs, unmarried, aged 28, and born in the same village as Lucy Jane Goldsmith.

The family were still living at Odstone, (although now it is recorded as being on Arthog Road, Hale), on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. – I suspect that is the same physical building as the one they were living at in 1891, it’s just the area has been renamed. Father Henry, (aged 44 and an Architect), is recorded as an Employer. Living with him are wife Lucy Jane, (37) and their three children George Hartley, (15), Henry Leonard, (13) and Olive Mary, (10). The household still ran to two live in domestic servants.

The 1901 Census didn’t require details of whether any of a households residents were at School, but the absense of a profession or occupation for George, or anything about his employment status, would tend to indicate he was still in full time education. Being at home would tend to rule out George being a full time boarding school student, although as the Census was taken on a Sunday it could be that he was returning to school on Monday as a Day Boarder, which might expand the range of schools he was attending. Otherwise its likely to have been a local Grammar School – but which one.

The predecessor of the Altrincham Grammar School for Boys only opened in 1912, so it wasn’t that one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altrincham_Grammar_School_for_Boys

In 1903 George and his cousin were witnesses at a coroners inquest.

Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

The family connection to Rhos might explain some of the architectural work of his father identified there by @brianmorris547 from newspaper reports.

Sadly the death of the 19 year old Henry Leonard Goldsmith was recorded in the Bucklow District of Cheshire in Q4 1906. The death appears to have been accidental.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

So the questions start – when and where did George Hartley Goldsmith study to become an Architect – at his fathers’ firm perhaps?

The marriage of a George Hartley Goldsmith to a Margaret Dalzell Hollywood was recorded in the Fulham District of London in Q1 1909.

Which raises the question of why George was in London – was it to study for his profession. Unfortunately the London University War List 1914-18 does not include him amongst the Goldsmiths who were students, graduates, teachers and employees of the University and who served in the Great War.

The 1911 Census of England & Wales finds the 25 year old Architect George Hartley Goldsmith, born Bowdon, Cheshire, recorded as the married head of the household at 16 Lansdowne Street, Withington, Manchester. He lives there with his wife of 2 years, Margaret, aged 23 and born Workington, Cumberland. Sadly the only child of the union so far had already died.

This was a Francis Goldsmith, mothers’ maiden name Hollywood, whose birth was registered in the Chorlton District of Lancashire in Q4 1910. His death was registered in the same quarter. As far as the records of England & Wales are concerned there do not appear to be any more children.

Oddly there is no appearance in the GRO birth records or the earlier census records that would tie up with the details for Margaret given on the 1911 Census. Nor is there an obvious subsequent death in either England & Wales or in the GRO’s overseas death index.

The parents of George Hartley Goldsmith were recorded at Odstone, Arthog Road, Hale, on the 1911 Census of England & Wales.  It now falls within the Bucklow civil registration district – the district where the death of Henry Leonard Goldsmith was registered. Henry and Lucy Jane state they have been married 26 years, and of their 3 children, only 2 were still living. Daughter Olive Mary, (20), is recorded as a part time Art Student.

Although an online family tree doesn’t have pictures it does have this to say about father Henry.
Henry Goldsmith was a renowned architect who worked in Cheshire and Manchester. He developed property in the Hale area during this period. Henry was a Manchester born architect who entered into his father’s practice in the 1870s. His numerous works included residences, places of worship, public and philanthropic institutions and business premises. He was also the author of “Economical House”, a book that addressed the need for affordable but elegantly designed properties for the upper middle class. Goldsmith is renowned for his use of black and white timber detailing, decorative ridge tiles and roof stained glass windows. Within Hale he designed numerous residential properties, these were mainly along Arthog Road (Portinscale, Braeside, Ardmore, Arnside Cottage, Mapperly and Danesborough), Harrop Road (The Vicarage), The Avenue (Eastdale and The Orchard) and Ashley Road (numbers 174 - 176). Many of these have been identified by examining a ledger of plans, held by Trafford Council. The research has not been exhaustive though and there may be other Henry Goldsmith buildings in the area that have not yet been identified as such. The names of the buildings identified in the ledger may also have changed over the years, and it has not been possible in every case to identify the exact location of every Goldsmith building mentioned above. https://www.trafford.gov.uk/planning/strategic-planning/docs/June2015ConsultationDocuments/caa-south-hale-draft-2015.pdf

Source https://scotsonfamilyhistory.com/getperson.php?personID=I10451&tree=SW1

The same site believes George Hartley Goldsmith married an Ethel Eyre in the Sheffield District in Q1 1921. However the GRO index of marriages only shows the groom as George H. Goldsmith. It may be a co-incidence but the 1921 Census of England & Wales shows an Ethel Goldsmith, born Sheffield c1901, in a household at Sheffield with a George Harold Goldsmith, (born Sheffield, c 1897), a George Elliot Goldsmith, (born c 1864), a Joseph A. Goldsmith, (born Sheffield c 1903) and a Lawrence E. Goldsmith, (born Sheffield c 1906). Possible matches for George on the 1901 and 1911 Census, (as Harold), and Ethel on the 1901 Census but not readily on the 1911 one.

No obvious sign of George and Margaret on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. However the marriage to Ethel can’t entirely be ruled out – that is the first name of the woman he was living with in 1939.

That address in St. Omer is run down now, although judging from pre-war postcards the area may not have been at the time the Goldsmith’s were in residence.

Saint-Omer : Rue Carnot et Caserne Bueil
Image sourced courtesy https://bibliotheque-numerique.bibliotheque-agglo-stomer.fr/viewer/20661/?offset=#page=1&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=

Here’s how it looked in May 2023 – the three storey building to the left of Infinity Bar as we look at it.

Image courtesy Google Streetmaps.
Source https://www.google.com/maps/@50.7503235,2.257797,3a,75y,162.99h,100.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6-kFOwKNTbjcU8GDmFwzKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

The question is then what was a presumably British trained architect doing in the town? No doubt there was much reconstruction work still going on across the areas fought over, but how likely would it have been that foreign architects, unfamiliar with local planning laws and building regulations and possibly not even fluent in the local language and with qualifications not recognised by the local system, would find work on a jobbing basis.

And while St. Omer no doubt has its’ charms, it hardly seems likely to be an expat centre. In fact perhaps the only drawing factor might be that during the war it was the home of the B.E.F. G.H.Q.

Following that line of logic I wondered if that connection might have led to it being one of the bases of the Imperial War Graves Commission in the post-war period.

Unravelling that led to:-

George Hartley Goldsmith. Born 1886/87 – Died 1967.

Trained at the Manchester Art School and Victoria University; articled to James Horsfall, Roger Oldham and Henry Goldsmith.

He was the Assistant draughtsman to Lutyens 1907-1910. Independent practice in Manchester 1910. War service as Major; MC. Appointed Assistant Architect 27th May 1919, reference provided by Edwin Lutyens.

Designed 67 cemeteries and the Memorial to the Missing at La Ferté on the Marne. He left the Commission on the 31st July 1927. He later worked for the Midland Bank and designed banks at Knotty Ash (1936) and Elstree Way (1942). Died 1967.

Information provided to the source website by Gavin Stamp. https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/george-hartley-goldsmith.html

See also this CWGC source which credits that information to Gavin Stamp’s book Silent Cities https://archive.cwgc.org/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Persons&id=DS%2FUK%2F34&AddBasket=DS%2FUK%2F34

The Manchester School of Art Archive is not available online but can be viewed at the Manchester Metropolitan University Reading Room -  although they do have contacts on their website for enquiries. https://www.mmu.ac.uk/special-collections-museum/collections/manchester-school-of-art-archive

The Journal of the Royal Institute of British Architects dated 7^th December 1907, page 105, notes that George Hartley Goldsmith, (Probationer, 1900, Student1905) and based in Manchester was voted in as an Associate of the Institute on the 2^nd December 1907. https://archive.org/details/sim_riba-journal_1907-12-07_15_3/page/104/mode/2up?q=%22George+Hartley+Goldsmith%22

The book “Sketches by Edwin Lutyens” by Margaret Richardson records that George worked under Lutyens from 1907-1910 and then again at the IWGC. https://archive.org/details/sketchesbyedwinl0000rich/page/104/mode/2up?q=Goldsmith

The catalogue “Lutyens, the work of the English architect Sir Edwin Lutyens (1869-1944)” for an exhibition at the Hayward Gallery, 1981-82, records that George was the assistant architect to Lutyens for the Etaples Military Cemetery. The accompanying notes reference a photograph of the monument under construction from the “album of George Hartley Goldsmith”. https://archive.org/details/lutyensworkofeng0000luty/page/152/mode/2up?q=Goldsmith
That album was then in the possession of a Mr. K.G. Worrall.

Possibly this picture which appears on the CWGC website:-

Image courtesy the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, sourced https://www.cwgc.org/our-work/caring-for-our-sites/la-ferte-sous-jouarre-memorial-restoration/

If George was present at the unveiling of the Memorial to the Missing of the Marne in 1928, this newsreel footage isn’t good enough quality to pick him out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sstuMx5ryUc

The Commonwealth War Graves Archive has a number of documents relating to Major Goldsmith. They seem mainly to be exchanges about design and cost going on how they have been catalogued, but haven’t dug very deep. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/cwgc-archive/

His entry on the Architects of Greater Manchester website confirms much of the above about his architectural training and adds “He left the Commission on the 31 July 1927, entering a brief partnership with Samuel Nathaniel Cooke, and Edward Cecil Davies, practising as Architects, at 44, Great Russell-street, London. This partnership was dissolved on 31 July 1928 after which he worked alone from the same address until at least 1936

George Hartley Goldsmith retired to Rhos-on-Sea, Colwyn Bay. He died on 28 August 1967.

ARIBA   1907 - RHOS-ON-SEA. SUCCESS - Mr G. Hartley Goldsmith, son of Mr Henry Goldsmith, architect, Manchester and Rhos, has successfully passed his final examination in connection with the Royal Institute of British Architects, held in London last week. [Welsh Coast Pioneer 4 July 1907 page 12] [Weekly News for Colwyn Bay 5 July 1907 page 14]

FRIBA    February 1926 proposed by Paul Ogden, Sir Edwin L Lutyens RA, Albert J Thomas [Journal of the RIBA 15 February 1926 page 198]

Partnership 1928      S N Cooke E G Davies G H Goldsmith [RIBA Kalendar] NOTICE  is  hereby  given,  that  the Partnership heretofore  subsisting  between us, the  under-signed, Samuel Nathaniel Cooke, Edward Cecil Davies  and  George  Hartley  Goldsmith, practising as  Architects, at  44, Great  Russell-street,  London, under  the  style  or  firm  of  COOKE  DAVIES  AND GOLDSMITH,  was dissolved  as  and  from  the  31st day  of  July, 1928,  by  mutual consent, and that each  of the  said late partners  will as from the said date  continue  to  practice as  an  Architect  at the said  address  on his  own account  and  separate  and apart from the others.—Dated the 29th day  of August, 1928. SAM.  N.  COOKE. E. CECIL DAVIES. G. H.  GOLDSMITH. London Gazette.

Address

1919-1927    Major George Hartley Goldsmith MC, Headquarters Imperial War Graves Commission Longuenesse, St Omer, Pas de Calais, France
1928-1936    Major George Hartley Goldsmith MC 44 Great Russel Street London WC 1

Residence

1911    16 Lansdowne Road, Withington, Mancester
1926    George Hartley Goldsmith ARIBA "Odstone" Rhos-on-Sea, Colwyn Bay
1967    Gwnfa, 101 Tan-y-Bryne Road, Rhos-on-Sea, Colwyn Bay (probate)
https://manchestervictorianarchitects.org.uk/architects/george-hartley-goldsmith-2

NB – his paternal grandfather was also George Hartley Goldsmith, so be careful to check dates when doing architect \ Cheshire \ Manchester based searches, and learn from my time consuming mistakes!

On the 1939 Register there is a George H. Goldsmith, born 1885, who was recorded living at 131 Lauderdale Mansions, Maida Vale, City Of Westminster, Paddington District, London. Also at this address is an Ethel Goldsmith, born 1897.

Going back to the possible 1921 wedding, it may be a co-incidence but there was an Ethel Eyre whose birth was registered in the Sheffield District in Q4 1897.

George died on the 28^th August 1967 at 101 Tan-y-Bryne Road, Rhos-on-Sea, Colwyn Bay, Denbighshire, North Wales according to the 1967 Probate Calendar.

This was barely a fortnight after the death of an Ethel Goldsmith of the same address, who died at the Royal Alexandra Hospital, Rhyl, Flintshire, on the 12^th August 1967. Her probate was dealt with by a Kenneth George Worrall, chartered surveyor – I suspect our Mr. K.G. Worrall who had Georges’ photo album in his possession in the early 1980’s.

It looks like George’s second marriage did produce two children -
Kenneth Irven Goldsmith, mothers’ maiden name Eyre, birth registered in the Ecclesall Bierlow District, Q4 1922.
Derrick Haydn Goldsmith, birth registered Sheffield District, Q2 1925.
Both children would predecease their parents. https://scotsonfamilyhistory.com/getperson.php?personID=I10483&tree=SW1

Still no pictures of the man himself but hopefully the rabbit holes have been interesting and potentially a few leads to follow up.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 10 March by PRC
Typos

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 10/03/2024 at 00:10, PRC said:

Another Royal Warren of rabbit holes I’m afraid

Another impressive tour de force in finding your way around this most intricate and extensive warren!

I haven't yet opened all the links as there is lots to look at, but I will do so in the next day or so.

The thing that strikes me most immediately is that here is a man who had seen more than his fair share of death and tragedy, even compared with his peers who went through WW1. A witness to a death on the Little Orme aged 18 in 1903, his 19 year old brother found hanged in 1906. death of his first born child (by his first wife Margaret) aged one or less in about 1910, his involvement in the war in France from1914 to 1918, no information as to what happened to his first wife, but then two children by a second marriage pre-deceased him in 1941 and 1965 respectively. 

Edited 17 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I shall shortly post a full resume of where we have got to in identifying all the officers in this group photograph, but before I do, there are currently 5 Officers for whom we have not as yet made any guesses, and 4 names of officers whom we know to have gone to France with the 2/5th LF on 03/05/1915 to be allocated between them.

The 5 officers as yet unnamed are 6, 7, 14, 16 and 17 (but note that in the sister thread Mark Hone has recently suggested that Officer 6 may be J.E. Hartington, in which case that would make the other unnamed officer Officer 9)

The 4 names are: 

Lieutenant Baron Harold Rothband, aged about 28 on 1 May 1915

2nd Lieutenant Mansfield Priestley-Evans, aged about 23 on 1 May 1915

2nd Lieutenant John Booth Packman, aged about 18 on 1 May 1915

2nd Lieutenant John Frederick Harker, age not known

The ages noted above are based on the 1911 census, thanks to @brianmorris547

Priestley-Evans and Packman feature in the photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve Battalion taken in Southport in December 1914.

Priestley-Evans is exceptionally tall in that photograph, seeming to be at least as tall as, or even taller than, J.D. Barnsdale (Officer no 24). For that reason alone, I wonder if he might be Officer 14, whose height is comparable to that of Hugh Waterstone, Officer 15, who was 6 ft 3 in. Against that is the fact that in the photograph of the 5th Reserve Priestley-Evans seems to have a moustache, while Officer 14 is clean-shaven. I have no other photos of Priestley-Evans.

In common with my GF and many others in the Bedford photo, Priestley-Evans was appointed as 2nd Lieutenant with the 2/5th LF wef 7 October 1914 (LG 14 October 1914). He was then appointed temporary Lieutenant wef 1 October 1915 (LG 16 May 1916), then he was appointed Captain wef 1 June 1916 according to the LG of 4 August 1917, at which time there appears to have been a general shake-up of the ranks of the Territorials in this LG. The LG of 24 December 1917 carried a notice that he had been "seconded whilst on prob. with Indian Army, R. of O., in the rank of Lt.", while the LG of 29 April had various notices charting his progress in the Indian Army (Lieutenant after passing his probation 23 January 1918, acting Captain while commanding a Company 9 March 1919, and Captain 7 October 1918.

For Packman, based solely on the 5th Reserve photo, I would guess at Officer 17. I have no other photos of him. He is roughly the same height as my GF, who is next to him in the 5th Reserve photo. My GF's height was 5 ft 7 1/4 in. Like my GF, Packman also attended Bury Grammar School. He lasted only about a week with the 2/5th LF in France when they first went out in May 1915, but rejoined them in June 1916, becoming acting Quartermaster later that year,

Like Priestley-Evans, Packman was appointed a 2nd Lieutenant with the 2/5th LF wef 7 October 1914 (LG 14 October 1914). He then seems not to have progressed until, in the shake-up in the ranks of the Territorials which was published in the LG of 4 August 1917, he was promoted straight to full Captain wef 7 February 1917. The edition of the LG of 29 October 1917 then published his retrospective appointment to Lieutenant wef 1 July 1917. Finally, the LG of 3 December 1920 reported that he had been appointed as Captain in the Territorial Force Reserve wef 4 December 1920.

Regarding Rothband, his appointment as 2nd Lieutenant in the 5th Battalion of the LF was published in the LG of 23 February 1915, where he was described as "Private Baron Harold Rothband, from Inns of Court Officer Training Corps", the date of his appointment being 23 January 1915 according to a correction in the LG of 8 July 1915. He then became temporary Lieutenant wef 25 April 1915 (LG 18 May 1915), and temporary Captain wef 30 June 1916 (LG 21 March 1917). In the shake-up in the ranks of the Territorials which was published in the LG of 4 August 1917 Rothband relinquished his temporary captaincy but was confirmed as a full Lieutenant wef 5 August 1917. A correction was issued in the LG of 21 November 1917 which was to the effect that he retained his acting captaincy but was to have the pay and allowance of a Lieutenant. Later he was appointed to full Captain wef 7 February 1918 (LG 25 March 1918).

My GF records that Rothband went to hospital while they were at the front facing Guillemont on 5 August 1916. The Battalion WD states that Rothband was suffering from shellshock at this point, and the Manchester Guardian for 9 August 1916 reported that he had been brought to England suffering from shellshock, also mentioning that his brother Jacob (Jack) Eustace Rothband had recently been killed in action (19 July 1916). My GF mentions him only once more, when he met him at Ripon where my GF was on Home Service recovering from being seriously wounded at Ginchy on 9 September 1916.

In WW2 B.H. Rothband was a stalwart of the Home Guard, being appointed Lieutenant Colonel of a Battalion of the Home Guard according to the Manchester Guardian for 22 March 1941. 

I have no other photographs of him other than this one, from the Manchester Evening News for 18 August 1941 courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive, which tells us little apart from that he was not a very tall man.

However, in case "family likeness" may come into play, I know of two pictures of his brother, Jack, from the IWM site Lives of the First World War and the British Jews in the First World War website respectively:

        

There is also a portrayal of his son, Geoffrey W. Rothband in the Manchester Evening News for 11 March 1980, courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive

Other things I know about him are that his father was Mr. W.S. Rothband of Cheetham Hill. He probably went to Manchester Grammar School like his brother Jack, so they may be able to help with photos. He was married to Mabel, and in 1920, when they were living at 32 Broadway, Withington, Manchester, they had a son (presumably the Geoffrey pictured above who was at Dunkirk aged 19), and later they had a daughter, Margaret, who married a surgeon, Cyril J. Livingstone, in 1949. Still of Broadway, Withington, he died in 1965. 

Finally, turning to J.F. Harker, who my GF knew as Freddy, he comes across in my GF's diary as a wily, tough and resourceful sort of character, prone to "borrowing" other people's horses without permission. The closest we get to a physical description is at the end of a long march, when many of the men had fallen by the wayside, and everyone else was exhausted, he "arrived looking like an Italian Organ Grinder - with a huge waterproof cape thrown over his kit, and carrying about three rifles". 

@brianmorris547 was unable to identify him in the 1911 census, so we don't know his age. The first mention of him is in the LG of 23 February 1915, recording his appointment as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 5th Battalion LF, which, by a correction in the LG of 22 April 1915, took effect from 27 January 1915. He is described as "Private John Frederick Harker from 2nd London Divisional Army Service Corps". He was, like J.E. Hartington, seconded to the MGC wef 10 February 1916 (LG 25 May 1918), then he was appointed to temporary Lieutenant wef 1 August 1916 (LG 15 December 1916. In the shake-up of the LG of 4 August 1917 he was appointed as Lieutenant backdated to 1 June 1916, to remain seconded to the MGC. Finally he was appointed to Captain wef 7 February 1917 (LG 20 September 1918).

 

Edited 16 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[brianmorris547]

I extended the dates of the newspaper check on the four named Officers and the only hits were on John Booth Packman.

Sussex Express 08/11/1940 - Westham - Captain John Booth Packman of Stone Cross was sworn in as a Special Constable.

Eastbourne Herald 23/08/1947 - New Companies - John Booth Packman and Dorothy V Packman of The Coop, Stone Cross named as Directors of Stone Cross Nurseries Ltd.

Brian