A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 12 March Author Share Posted 12 March Thank you Brian. A small point has occurred to me regarding Kirkman and Duckworth: If Kirkman was Duckworth's best man at his wedding, then unless Kirkman was chosen to be best man only because he was one of the few men eligible to fulfil this role who happened to be present in the UK at the time of the wedding, this might suggest that they were very close friends, which might also be consistent with them standing next to each other both in the group photograph and in the photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve in Southport, if say, the arrangement of the more junior officers was left entirely to them, so that in the photographs they stood next to whoever they had been chatting to beforehand. One other point, this time concerning Rothband. Is it possible that family likeness might point to Officer 7 as being Baron Harold Rothband, especially as regards the eyebrows? I appreciate that this is not the most reliable sort of evidence, but we may not have an awful lot more to go on ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 12 March Share Posted 12 March (edited) 22 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: Finally, turning to J.F. Harker, who my GF knew as Freddy, he comes across in my GF's diary as a wily, tough and resourceful sort of character, prone to "borrowing" other people's horses without permission. The closest we get to a physical description is at the end of a long march, when many of the men had fallen by the wayside, and everyone else was exhausted, he "arrived looking like an Italian Organ Grinder - with a huge waterproof cape thrown over his kit, and carrying about three rifles". John Frederick Harker – warning before you go any further, here be rabbit holes down which you may enjoyably disappear For reasons known only to themselves the National Archive currently have his MiC indexed as John Edward, although the MiC itself clearly shows John Frederick. An error has been reported. It will however knock on to the MiC indexing on FindMyPast. Originally going overseas with the “5th Lancashire Fusiliers” as a Second Lieutenant, he landed in France on the 3rd May 1915. Eventually he reached the rank of Captain, MGC, while serving in a Theatre of War. When he applied for his medals in December 1921 he initially gave a contact address of the British Enbassy, Washington. Subsequently that was updated to 62 Boundary Road, (London) NW8. His medals were issued by the Lancashire Fusiliers rather than the MGC. If he was attached to the Washington embassy in December 1921 it would seem likely he was also there on the 4th June that year when the Censuses were taken in the UK. Unfortunately even if he was still in the armed forces I suspect that location fell outside the scope of the exercise. He would also have had to get there, but a check of the outbound passenger lists from the UK failed to turn up any likely matches. But he could have:- travelled aboard a warship travelled from another country been recorded under a different name, either deliberately or more likely as a result of a transcription error on the genealogy websites. If he was born in England & Wales, (a BIG assumption, and one based only on the London ASC connection from his service in the ranks and the subsequent contact address on his MiC), then the GRO birth records don’t turn up any likely candidates for a John Frederick or a Frederick John – including the many possible variations on the spelling of “Frederick” A check of the 1921 Census of England & Wales shows that while there are a lot of John Harkers, (some of whom may have chosen not to give a middle name), there are only 3 John F’s – one a Farthing and another a “Frances” and the third born in 1911, so it may be a relatively rare combination. The next bit is a bit tenuous and tortuous, so bear with me. It’s set out in the order I discovered things, in part so you can see the relative strength of the evidence that would take some major re-writing to get close to if a timeline approach was taken. On the 14th August 1975 a John “Fredrick” Harker died at Okanagan Mission, Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada. In recording his death his place and date of birth was given as London, England, on the 14th June 1896. Parents were listed as Ernest Harker and Julia Costarici. His wife was Marianita Hilda Roller. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLB5-PT7 There is a picture of his grave marker on FindAGrave. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/198839636/john-fredrick-harker#view-photo=250715278 Working backwards a 34 year old married John “Frederick” Harker, who had arrived in Canada in 1929 was recorded on the 1931 Census of Canada, (taken in June of that year), living in an apartment at 2446 Port Grey Road, Vancouver, British Columbia. It consisted of 6 rooms but the family did not own a radio! John was employed by a Steel Company and religion was given as Church of England. Living with him was wife Marianita, aged 32 and born England. Also living with them were their two children “Jessie\Jervois”(?) Antony, (11) and Noel. (10), both born Straits Settlements. The Canadian Census taker looks to have originally recorded the children with the surname Parker and then made a very clumsy job of amending it to Harker which is lost against the pre-printed columns on the page. The name of the oldest child has also been crammed in, making it difficult to be certain about the first forename. Marianita came to Canada in 1929 like her husband, but the two children only joined them in 1930.She and the children are recorded as Roman Catholics. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6RSL-ZJCK Those children ages should in theory means births may well pre-date the US Embassy address. But there are no likely birth registrations in the GRO index of overseas births. So going back a step, when the widow Marianita Hilda Harker, wife of John “Fredrick” Harker, died at Okanagan Mission, Kelowna, British Columbia on the 9th April 1985 she was recorded as born London, England, on the 12th November 1898,. the daughter of a Mr Roller and Maria Delos Dolores https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLV2-FSD Marianita, (and as a result John, briefly) gets a mention on The Peerage website. Marianita Roller is the daughter of C. T. Roller. She married, secondly, John Frederick Harker. She married, firstly, St. Vincent John Jervis, son of Edward St. Vincent Parker-Jervis and Winifred Maria Reynolds, in 1917. Children of Marianita Roller and St. Vincent John Jervis Antony St. Vincent Jervis b. 21 Aug 1919, d. 17 Nov 2008 Noel John Jervis b. 25 Dec 1920 https://www.thepeerage.com/p57059.htm#i570581 Below that are entries for her son Antony St. Vincent Jervis, born 21st August 1919 at Singapore – who was educated at Ampleforth College Ampleforth, Yorkshire, England, (that would be the Roman Catholic connection), served in the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery in WW2. Subsequently taught Maths in British Columbia and died (probably) in Vancouver in 2008. Noel John Jervis also went to Ampleforth and served in the Candian Artillery. He went on to be a Professor at the University of Alberta. https://www.thepeerage.com/p57060.htm#i570596 Debrett’s has Marianita related by marriage to the Viscount St. Vincent’s – sample entry from 1985 https://archive.org/details/debrettspeerageb0000unse/page/1058/mode/2up?q=%22John+Frederick+Harker%22 All those bits together led me to an obituary for “Mr. John Harker” on the St Georges School, British Columbia, website, which includes a picture of him much later in life. Early ‘owner’ of St. George’s School; former Headmaster (1933-1962); parent of a alumnus (Christopher ‘57); founder of the ‘School for Boys and Dogs.’ Mr. Harker was the second Headmaster of St. George’s School, serving from 1933– 1962. British born and educated, he served as an Officer in the First World War, then the Diplomatic Service in The Hague and in Washington, DC, before a five-year span in the Far East. Eventually landing in Vancouver, he was recruited to St. George’s School at a turbulent time in its early history, subsequently successfully bringing financial stability, character education, academic standards, strong traditions, and growing enrollment in his wake. It is generally accepted that Mr. Harker saved St. George’s from financial ruin and discredit in the early part of his tenure as Headmaster. He involved his entire family in the business of serving St. George’s School, including his beloved wife, Marianita (“Naggers”). He also shepherded the School through the trials of another World War and its severe impact on staffing, led the charge to acquire the land upon which the current Senior School now sits, and approved the formation of the invaluable Women’s Auxiliary in 1950, now the SGPA. He is remembered and celebrated for his extraordinary contributions to St. George’s over almost three decades, his unwavering sense of humour, and the legacy of “St. George’s School for Boys and Dogs”! Mr. Harker died on August 14, 1975, and his memorial service was held at the School. https://www.stgeorges.bc.ca/list-detail?pk=64247 John Harker courtesy St George School, British Columbia. https://www.stgeorges.bc.ca/list-detail?pk=64247 A genealogy dump site records that a John Harker married a Marianita Parker Jervis in 1930 in Whatcom County, Washington, USA – information gleaned from the Washington State Archives, to which it has a weblink. https://sortedbyname.com/letter_h/harker/john_harker.html The marriage was on the 20th September 1930. Both John and Marianita give their place of residence as the Province of British Columbia. Otherwise it is very sparse on details – no ages or maritial status let alone parents names. https://digitalarchives.wa.gov/DigitalObject/Download/7992a4d3-513c-44a8-9d2c-2d40eeaa165c An image exists from c1930 of headmaster John Harker of St Georges School, British Columbia, and his dogs. Image courtesy https://ubcischool.arcabc.ca/islandora/object/slais%3A1237169/datastream/OBJ/view From the history of the school:- St. George's School for boys is one of the largest and most respected independent schools in Canada. Located on West 29th Avenue in Vancouver, the school was founded by a flamboyant English gentleman, Captain F. J. Danby Hunter, in 1931. Despite the economic depression, Hunter managed to attract investors and incorporate his school as a private company. More important, he was able to attract twenty-five boys by the time the school opened on 7 January 1931. Hunter was, however, an indifferent teacher and a poor financial manager. Relations with his staff and his Board of Governors soured and in March 1933 he resigned and returned to England. He was succeeded by John Harker (1896-1975), a former Rugbeian who had been hired as the school bursar in 1932. Harker put the school on a firm footing, restored the confidence of investors and parents, and increased enrollment. Harker also imbued the school with the spirit or ethos that characterized Rugby, one of the oldest and most famous "public schools" in England. "When I took over here," he said afterwards, "I automatically tried in a modest way to inculcate something of the fundamental quality of Rugby in St. George's." Harker served as St. George's headmaster until his retirement in 1962. Soon after Harker became headmaster the school was re-incorporated as St. George's School 1934 Ltd. The new organization established a Board of Governors, to approve appointments and curricula, and a Board of Directors, to look after financial matters. The company was voluntarily wound up in 1948, at which time the school was registered as a non-profit society, a status it retains to this day. John Harker was succeeded by his brother, Douglas Harker, who served as headmaster from January 1963 to June 1971. The archival records of St. George's were entrusted to the British Columbia Archives in 1986 and are catalogued there as Add. MSS. 2210. The records include minutes of governors' and directors' meetings (1934 - 1981), programmes of athletic events (1933 - 1951), and scrapbooks containing photographs, circulars, and newscuttings. The collection also includes copies of the school yearbook, The Georgian, from 1933 onwards, and copies of The Dragon (1975 onwards), a newsletter published by the St. George's Old Boys' Association. https://curric.library.uvic.ca/homeroom/content/schools/private/stgeo.htm (My emphasis in the above) That Archive collection contains over 400 pictures. Although many of the individuals present are not named, here is my best guess at the ones (cropped) that included John Harker. Staff and Prefects December 1932 sourced City of Vancouver Archives. (John was still then Bursar and I believe is third from left). https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/st-georges-school-staff-and-prefects-dec-1932 St Georges School Fall 1933 sourced City of Vancouver Archives https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/st-georges-school-fall-term-1933 Staff and Prefects Fall Term 1934 sourced City of Vancouver Archives. https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/st-georges-school-staff-and-prefects-fall-term-1934 St Georges School Fall 1944 sourced City of Vancouver Archives https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/st-georges-school-fall-1944 St Georges School Staff Fall 1944 sourced City of Vancouver Archives. https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/st-georges-school-staff-fall-1944 (many other years and terms are available!) St Georges School Matriculation Class Summer 1951 sourced City of Vancouver Archives. https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/st-georges-school-matriculation-class-summer-1951 John it would appear was a big driver for the success of the Rugby Team. So this may be him at the right hand end of the picture of St Georges School 1st XV Rugby Team Nov 22nd 1947. Source: https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/st-georges-school-1st-xv-rugby-team Moving on to try and establish the link between the Canadian Head Teacher and the soldier we are interested in, the British Army Monthly List for December 1919 has two entries indexed for the same Territorial Force Officer, J.F. Harker. In Column 1087 he is listed as a Captain on the establishment of the 5th Battalion, Lancashire Regiment, but attached to the Machine Gun Corps. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109430129 And in Column 1563c he is a Captain in the MGC attached from the 5th Battalion, Lancashire Regiment. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109435133 So looks like he didn’t formally transfer from the Lancashire Fusiliers to the Machine Gun Corps – hence the Lancashire Fusiliers issuing his medals. Way back near the start I turned up a Canadian death registration for a John “Fredrick” Harker born 14th June 1896. A few years back the Ministry of Defence released of files it had retained for men who continued to serve after 1920 and who were born before the end of 1900. I’ve just checked the list and there is a J.F. Harker, born 14th June 1896. He has an officers service number - P49432. This list formed the original basis of the proposed transfer of files to the National Archive, but I believe the scope has changed since then. Still it would seem more likely than not that his records would be transferred. Once again it’s not a smoking gun but one hell of a co-incidence considering there is no other J.F. Harker in the December 1919 Monthly List. Of course he could have been an man in his early twenties or older commissioned after that date. I then turned to the Rugby School online archive – and perhaps the final connections are falling into place. The Old Rugbeian Newsletter of November 1915 in its list of old boys who were serving notes that J.F. Harker entered the school in 1910 – but adds that his surname was then Haarbleicher. Then a Second Lieutenant with the Lancashire Fusiliers, serving in the B.E.F., he had been wounded. (Page 23). A second list adds he was wounded in October but doesn’t have an exact date and only refers to his surname as Harker. https://rugbyschoolarchives.co.uk/PDFViewer/web/viewer.html?file=%2fFilename.ashx%3ftableName%3dta_oldrugbeiannewsletter%26columnName%3dfilename%26recordId%3d16%23page%3d1&searchText=Harker The October 1918 Newsletter has him recorded as 5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers attached Machine Gun Corps later Foreign Office. https://rugbyschoolarchives.co.uk/PDFViewer/web/viewer.html?file=%2fFilename.ashx%3ftableName%3dta_oldrugbeiannewsletter%26columnName%3dfilename%26recordId%3d27%23page%3d1&searchText=Harker By the December 1923 Newletter his name appears on a list of those with which the School had lost touch. https://rugbyschoolarchives.co.uk/PDFViewer/web/viewer.html?file=%2fFilename.ashx%3ftableName%3dta_oldrugbeiannewsletter%26columnName%3dfilename%26recordId%3d42%23page%3d1&searchText=Harker Most genealogy sites I did a quick check off transcribe his entry in the GRO quarterly index of births in England & Wales for Q3 1896 as that of a John Frederick “Haarblricher”, but I suspect that is because one of the letters used by the printer was worn and so didn’t hold the ink. Image courtesy Genes Reunited. The GRO website shows:- Image courtesy the General Registrars Office of England and Wales. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 4 year old John F. Haarbleicher, born Marylebone, London, who was recorded living at 19 Montagu Square, Marylebone. This was the household of his parents Ernest, (29, a Foreign Banker working on own account, born Marylebone) and Julia, (aged 27, born Marylebone). The household was supported by 4 live in servants. A check of the GRO records shows:- 1906 Martin E. M. Haarbleicher birth registered with the British Embassy in Geneva. Q1 1908 Ernest Russell Haarbleicher birth registered Marylebone District, mothers’ maiden name Da Costa Ricci. Q2 1911 Douglas Edward Haarbleicher birth registered Marylebone District, mothers’ maiden name Da Costa Ricci. That would seem to confirm that the family were still using the Haarbleicher surname after John Frederick started at Rugby School. It looks like the family were still at 19 Montagu Square on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but certainly Genes Reunited and probably FindMyPast and FamilySearch have transcribed the surname as Haarbleiche. However while the couple state they have been married 16 years they also state they have only had 2 children, both still alive, so perhaps the birth in Switzerland in 1906 is just a co-incidence. Image courtesy Genes Reunited. Judging from its neighbours 19 Montagu Square is a very desirable London residence but unfortunately at the only time Google Streetviews visited it was masked by 5 storeys of scaffolding. Here’s number 18 – number 19 is to the left. Number 18 Montagu Square Marylebone Nov 2022 sourced Google streetviews https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5180875,-0.159139,3a,75y,71.08h,114.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sw3o5sPsLoBuscW1KkT308w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu I’ve not found a London Gazette notice or anything in The Times covering the change of name but suspect it was very shortly after the war began. So pulling together those images known or believed to be of John leads me to suggest this man – Officer 7. No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights remain with the current owners. Cheers, Peter Edited 12 March by PRC Typos and formatting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 March Share Posted 12 March (edited) Absolutely brilliant work Peter, yet another tour de force of forensic analysis. I concur that Harker is Officer No 7 based on the facial comparisons. Edited 12 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 13 March Author Share Posted 13 March I don't know how you do this, Peter, I have thoroughly enjoyed exploring all these rabbit holes, and I do hope that you also have been enjoying mapping them out. The man who emerges from these insights exactly fits the glimpse of his character given to us by my GF. I also wonder whether, given that his father was a foreign banker and his mother's name also seems to have been of foreign origin, this may have given the young Harker a slightly exotic appearance, which perhaps contributed to my GF's description of him as looking like an Italian organ grinder with his big cape thrown over his kit. Anyway, I believe that Officer 7 has been well and truly nailed, thank you so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 14 March Share Posted 14 March On 12/03/2024 at 00:33, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: 2nd Lieutenant John Booth Packman, aged about 18 on 1 May 1915 The ages noted above are based on the 1911 census, thanks to @brianmorris547 Priestley-Evans and Packman feature in the photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve Battalion taken in Southport in December 1914. For Packman, based solely on the 5th Reserve photo, I would guess at Officer 17. I have no other photos of him. He is roughly the same height as my GF, who is next to him in the 5th Reserve photo. My GF's height was 5 ft 7 1/2 in. Like my GF, Packman also attended Bury Grammar School. He lasted only about a week with the 2/5th LF in France when they first went out in May 1915, but rejoined them in June 1916, becoming acting Quartermaster later that year, Like Priestley-Evans, Packman was appointed a 2nd Lieutenant with the 2/5th LF wef 7 October 1914 (LG 14 October 1914). He then seems not to have progressed until, in the shake-up in the ranks of the Territorials which was published in the LG of 4 August 1917, he was promoted straight to full Captain wef 7 February 1917. The edition of the LG of 29 October 1917 then published his retrospective appointment to Lieutenant wef 1 July 1917. Finally, the LG of 3 December 1920 reported that he had been appointed as Captain in the Territorial Force Reserve wef 4 December 1920. The birth of John Booth Packman, mothers’ maiden name Booth, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bury Lancashire District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1897. It looks like it was close to being a late registration – the baptism of a John Booth Packman, son of Walter and Harriett Ann Packman, took place at St Mary the Virgin’s Church, Bury, Lancashire, England on the 16th February 1897. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVYS-VQG The church records aren’t available via the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk website. There is a possibility, given how young he must have been, that the baptism didn’t take place in the church but was a private one at the mothers’ bedside for a child and \ or mother who might not live. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 4 year old John B. Packman, born Bury, was recorded living at 42 Manchester Road, Bury. This was the household of his parents, Walter, (aged 43, born Canterbury, Kent and a M.R.C.V.C. (Veterinary Surgeon)) and Harriet A., (aged 40 and born Radcliffe, Kent). The couple have an older son, Walter G., aged 7 and born Bury. The household runs to one live in servant. The birth of a Walter George Packman, mothers’ maiden name Booth, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bury District in Q4 1893. The death of a 46 year old Harriet Ann Packman was recorded in the Bury District in Q4 1903. Slightly unusually for a time when a married woman’s assets were normally regarded as her husbands, there is a 1904 Probate Calendar entry for a Harriet Ann Packman, of 42 Manchester Road, Bury (wife of Walter Packman), who died on the 9th October 1903. Probate was granted to her husband, a Veterinary Surgeon. Her estate was valued at £2,474 11s 7d. (Allowing just for inflation that would be the equivalent of over £200,000 in 2024). The widower Walter Packman and his two sons were still at the Manchester Road address on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. He states these were the only two children he had. Father Walter, (55) was still working as a Veterinary Surgeon. Sons Walter, (17) and John, (14), were still at school. As well as a live-in servant, also in the household is father Walters’ sister-in-law, the 57 year old widow Emma Ellerbeck, born Radcliffe. Presumably she was the late Harrietts’ sister. MiC for John Booth Packman shows him initially as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Lancashire Fusiliers and subsequently a Captain. No first Theatre or date of landing details are shown, but he did qualify for the 1914/15 Star. When he applied for his service medals in July 1920 he gave a contact address of 42 Manchester Road, Bury. This was subsequently amended to The Wylde, Bury. Ancestry are also showing John Booth Packman to have a Pension Ledger entry. Manchester Evening News 16 August 1916 Latest Casualties Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive. I could not find any evidence of brother Walter serving in the Great War. No obvious sign of John on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. Father Walter, brother Walter George, and aunt Emma, (she is now recorded as Emma Packman, so could be his step-mother as well, but I could find no likely marriage in England and Wales, so suspect a transcription error), were all recorded in a household in Bury. More detail will be available via subscription \ purchase from FindMyPast. The marriage of a John B. Packman to a Dorothy V. Wylde-Brown was recorded in the Steyning District of Sussex in Q3 1922. No obvious children in the GRO birth records for England & Wales but as I couldn’t find a birth records or earlier census record for Dorothy she may have been a widow. Aunt Emma Ellerbeck died at the age of 73 on the 22nd February 1927. According to the entry in that years Probate Calendar she was still living at 42 Manchester Road, Bury. Probate was granted in June 1927 to Walter George Packman, Clerk, and John Booth Packman, nurseryman. The 1939 Register has a John B. Packman, (born 1897) and a Dorothy V. Packman, (born 1897) recorded as Loop Nurseries, Hankham,Hailsham, Sussex. There may be additional closed entries at the same address – the original document, (availabe on FindMyPast and Ancestry), should be checked. Johns’ father Walter Packman, of 42 Manchester Road, Bury, died on the 7th March 1940. The entry in the 1940 Probate Calendar records that Probate was granted to Walter George Packman, veterinary surgeons assistant, and John Booth Packman, nurseryman. Walters’ estate was valued at £19,118 8s and 5d although it was subsequently revised slightly upwards. Inflation alone would make that the equivalent of nearly £750,000 in 2024. On 12/03/2024 at 15:53, brianmorris547 said: Sussex Express 08/11/1940 - Westham - Captain John Booth Packman of Stone Cross was sworn in as a Special Constable. Eastbourne Herald 23/08/1947 - New Companies - John Booth Packman and Dorothy V Packman of The Coop, Stone Cross named as Directors of Stone Cross Nurseries Ltd. Johns’ brother Walter G. Packman would pass away in the Bury District at the age of 68 in the Q3 quarter of 1962. That years Probate Calendar records he was living at 42 Manchester Road, Bury when he died on the 12th July 1962. Administration was granted at the Manchester Court in September to John Booth Packman, who gave his occupation as “retired Captain H.M. Army”. It was a bad year for John – a few entries above is one for Dorothy Violet Packman, of Wadhurst, West Wittering, Chichester, and wife of John Booth Packman. She had died at the Royal West Sussex Hospital, Chichester, on the 8th January 1962. Probate was granted to her husband, a “retired Captain H.M. Army”. John himself would pass away at the age of 70 on the 12th March 1967. His home address was still Wadhurst, West Wittering, Chichester but he died in St. Thomas Hospital, Lambeth, London. His estate was sorted out by the Midland Bank. But sadly no pictures and other than his potential attendance at Bury Grammar School and Stone Cross Nurseries, (still going on the outskirts of Eastbourne and on the road to Hankham), it doesn’t feel hopeful. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew B. Posted 14 March Share Posted 14 March (edited) Some info, if you did not have it, on MANSFIELD PRIESTLEY-EVANS: (Extracted from CWGC site), CAPTAIN MANSFIELD PRIESTLEY-EVANS Indian Army Reserve of Officers attached Indian Political Department (Asst. Political Officer, Diwaniyeh). Died 10 July 1920 - killed in the Arab Rising 1920 Buried or commemorated at BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY, Iraq Son of Evan David Priestley-Evans and Emily Evans, of White Gable, Seaton, Devon. Graduate of Oxford University June, 1914. Joined up Sept., 1914, in Lancashire Fusiliers. Born at Kidderminster. I hope that helps. Matthew Edited 14 March by Matthew B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 March Share Posted 14 March (edited) 24 minutes ago, Matthew B. said: Some info, if you did not have it, on MANSFIELD PRIESTLEY-EVANS: (Extracted from CWGC site), CAPTAIN MANSFIELD PRIESTLEY-EVANS Indian Army Reserve of Officers attached Indian Political Department (Asst. Political Officer, Diwaniyeh). Died 10 July 1920 - killed in the Arab Rising 1920 Buried or commemorated at BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY, Iraq Son of Evan David Priestley-Evans and Emily Evans, of White Gable, Seaton, Devon. Graduate of Oxford University June, 1914. Joined up Sept., 1914, in Lancashire Fusiliers. Born at Kidderminster. I hope that helps. Matthew Poor chap! Political officers used to stand out like sore thumbs, as required to wear uniform when deployed into the field, the regulations insisted that they wear white gorget tabs on their collars as if to mark them out as doves of peace among the beastly military… Edited 14 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 14 March Author Share Posted 14 March (edited) As ever, your work on John Packman makes fascinating reading @PRC . I am not surprised that John Packman seems to have led a less colourful life than some of the others you have researched on this thread, as that seems to fit with the impression of him given in my GF's writing, though, to be fair, he was very young whe he first went to France in May 1915 - but so was John Hartington, for example. 21 hours ago, PRC said: Ancestry are also showing John Booth Packman to have a Pension Ledger entry. My GF mentions in his memoir that on 6 August 1916 Packman "got very nervy and had to go to hospital", but when they were out of the line on 10 August 1916 he came back to the unit with a new draft of men. Will there be more information in the Pension Ledger entry? I am not at all sure that the current Stone Cross Nurseries will be the same organisation that John Packman was involved in. John Packman, according to the newspaper entry of 23 August 1947 found by @brianmorris547 , was a director of Stone Cross Nurseries Ltd, then a "new company". By that time John would already have been about 60 years of age, but he was already a nurseryman when he took out probate to his aunt's estate in 1927, and the 1939 Register shows John and his wife as being of "Loop Nurseries" (though I wonder if this should in fact read "Coop Nurseries", as their address when they formed Stone Cross Nurseries Ltd was "The Coop, Stone Cross"?). One gets the sense that maybe John might have developed into a nurseryman following his marriage in 1922 to his wife, but we don't know anything about her background, e.g. as to whether she was a native of Sussex or whether her family were plant-growers, and it is equally possible that they both took the plunge together to move to the south coast to try their luck in an entirely new line of business. The current company Stone Cross Nurseries Ltd was formed only in November 2007, so it is not the same company as the Packmans' company. The address of two of the directors of the current company is given on the Companies House website as Oak Croft, Saxon Nursery, Hankham. Googling Saxon Nursery reveals that it is a family business formed in1956, with a Twitter account that says that "Stone X Nurseries are now at Saxon Plants in Hankham as a Trade Cash and Carry". There is also a hit on Onthemarket.com which discloses that the property is available to rent. The On the Market website https://www.onthemarket.com/details/12390616/ reveals an impressive array of greenhouses and plants. As I say, I am not convinced that this is the legacy business of the nursery that the Packmans were involved in. Sussex is good growing country, and not surprisingly there are quite a number of garden centres/nurseries in and around the area where the Packmans were based. None seem to be at all interested in their history, at least on their websites, so, even if there was one which had developed from the Packmans' nursery I doubt whether any photographs would have survived. Edited 14 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 14 March Share Posted 14 March 4 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: My GF mentions in his memoir that on 6 August 1916 Packman "got very nervy and had to go to hospital", but when they were out of the line on 10 August 1916 he came back to the unit with a new draft of men. Will there be more information in the Pension Ledger entry? Given the report of his shell shock appears in the Manchester Evening News dated 16th August 1916 I suspect his father may have received a letter from his son rather than detailed notification from the War Office. I tried a check of the Official Casualty Lists that appeared in The Times between the 1st August 1916 and the 30th November 1916 and didn't find him. It's not perfect but sounds like officialdom weren't treating it as combat related. 4 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: Will there be more information in the Pension Ledger entry? Past experience would tend to say no, as he is an officer and so they are usually nothing more than former unit and contact address - but of course there are always exceptions! 4 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: the 1939 Register shows John and his wife as being of "Loop Nurseries" (though I wonder if this should in fact read "Coop Nurseries", as their address when they formed Stone Cross Nurseries Ltd was "The Coop, Stone Cross"?). Could be - the curse of only being able to see transcribed entries is that you are putting your trust in some-one elses eyesight A search for "Coop nursery \ nurseries" and "Loop Nursery nurseries" on the British Newspaper Archive didn't bring anything up in the twenties, thirties and forties in the Eastbourne area as far as I can tell. Plenty of references to Stone Cross Nursery from about 1948 at Eastbourne but by the looks of things all in the "for sale" sections of Sussex newspapers. By 1962 and the two probate calendar entres John is living at Wadhurst, West Wittering, and describes himself as a retired Captain H.M. Army, so almost certainly the business had been sold by then. I suspect the modern Stone Cross Nursery probably stems from the business set up by the Packman's but whether it is still in the same physical location several changes of ownership later would probably take some investigation for a long winter night and would be a rabbit hole well away from the warren! My thought was that if the Packmans set up the original nursery after marrying in Sussex in 1922, the current owners of the business might have had a centennial celebration. 5 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: One gets the sense that maybe John might have developed into a nurseryman following his marriage in 1922 to his wife, but we don't know anything about her background, e.g. as to whether she was a native of Sussex or whether her family were plant-growers, and it is equally possible that they both took the plunge together to move to the south coast to try their luck in an entirely new line of business. When I was looking last night there were google matches for various family trees on Ancestry showing Dorothy Violet Wylde-Brown born c1897, but the limited previews showed some with her either born Berkshire, Essex or Leicestershire, and parents first names, when visible varied enormously. In fact the only likely match in the GRO records for England & Wales is for a Dorothy Violet Wylde-BROWNE, whose birth was registered with the civil authorities in the Epping District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1896. Mothers' maiden name was Clarke. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 15 year old Dorothy Wylde-BROWNE, born Buckhurst Hill, Essex, who was recorded living at 51 Croxted Road, Dulwich, (London) S.E. This was the household of her 40 year old widowed mother Violet Wylde-Browne, born Guernsey and living on Private Means. Violet's marriage had produced two children, both then still alive. The other was a younger son, the 14 year old Harold Wylde-Brown, also born Buckhurst Hill. Dorothy and Harold were still at school. Mother Violet most likely died in 1927 at the age of 55 - the death of a Violet A.A. Wylde-Browne being recorded in the Eastbourne District of Sussex in Q3. Unfortunately nothing obvious in the Probate Calendar, the British Newspaper Archive or The Times Digital Archive in connection with her death. For completeness, Harold Wilde-Browne served as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 4th Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment, before being attached to the R.F.C. \ R.A.F. He survived the war. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8196678 I forgot to add previously I didn't have any joy with the archives at the West Sussex County Council site or a specialist resourced area here http://www2.westsussex.gov.uk/learning-resources/LR/learning/learning_resources/wartime_west_sussex_1939-45/source_gallery_search.html Possibly John was a stalwart of his loyal British Legion and, without wanting to sound too cliched, his local Conservative Club, but lacking any kind of obituary or other evidence to indicate the connection, both lines of enquiry would be clutching at straws. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 14 March Author Share Posted 14 March (edited) On 14/03/2024 at 14:44, Matthew B. said: CAPTAIN MANSFIELD PRIESTLEY-EVANS Indian Army Reserve of Officers attached Indian Political Department (Asst. Political Officer, Diwaniyeh). Died 10 July 1920 - killed in the Arab Rising 1920 Buried or commemorated at BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY, Iraq Son of Evan David Priestley-Evans and Emily Evans, of White Gable, Seaton, Devon. Graduate of Oxford University June, 1914. Joined up Sept., 1914, in Lancashire Fusiliers. Born at Kidderminster. No, I didn't have this information, @Matthew B. . Thank you for providing it. How sad that, having survived four years of WW1, he should then meet his end in Iraq, only two years later. Those white tabs do look rather conspicuous, @FROGSMILE , and to make matters worse, based on the evidence of the 5th Reserve battalion photo, Priestley-Evans was a very tall man, so he would certainly have stood out. I meant to say earlier that I have now followed all the links furnished by @PRC with regard to George Hartley Goldsmith, which, with PRC's usual thoroughness, provide all the background to how he has been able to unravel George's life story. One small addition is that George*'s father, Henry, founded the Rhos on Sea Golf Club in 1899, and designed the course. He almost certainly (though I haven't been able to find this specifically stated anywhere) also designed and built the Club House in 1905 to replace the old farmhouse which had originally been used as a Club House. The new building's appearance, which can be seen on the Club website, bears all the hallmarks of a Henry Goldsmith creation. The young George* Goldsmith, who, as @brianmorris547 discovered here. used to play golf on this course with Kenneth Waterhouse, would have been 20 by the time the new Club House was commissioned in 1905, and might just possibly feature in photographs of the occasion. The current Golf Club is decidedly more interested in its history than are the garden centres around Eastbourne which we have looked at in connection with John Packman, as witness this page of their website https://www.rhosgolf.co.uk/visitors/club-history/, so this might be a useful avenue to explore. One other very small point: I do think that Odstone, Stamford Road, Bowdon, where the Goldsmith family was to be found in the 1891 census, might well be a different house to Odstone, Arthog Road, Hale, where they were living in 1901, even though the the houses must have been very close to each other. Odstone must have had some important resonance for the Goldsmith family, as in 1912 (by which time George* had married and left home) Henry moved to yet another Odstone, this time at Rhos on Sea https://clasmerdin.blogspot.com/2018/03/madoc-and-discovery-of-america.html. Henry definitely designed and built the third house, and may well have built the two earlier residences, perhaps "cutting his teeth", as it were, on the earlier houses. Perhaps also even then there may have been tax advatages if a builder lived in a house for a while as a resident before selling it on at a profit. *I think it would be more correct to refer to "Hartley" rather than "George", as my GF repeatedly refers to "Hartley Goldsmith", and it does not seem to have been a double barrelled surname. Edited 17 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Tor refer to Goldsmith as "Hartley" not "George" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 14 March Author Share Posted 14 March 50 minutes ago, PRC said: When I was looking last night there were google matches for various family trees on Ancestry showing Dorothy Violet Wylde-Brown born c1897, but the limited previews showed some with her either born Berkshire, Essex or Leicestershire, and parents first names, when visible varied enormously. Thank you Peter, for this additional information about the Wilde-Browns, or Wylde-Brownes, as the case may be. With a double-barrelled name you would think that it ought to be fairly easy to track people down, wouldn't you, but I see that there is plenty of room for mis-spellings to throw a spanner in the works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 16 March Share Posted 16 March (edited) On 12/03/2024 at 00:33, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: 2nd Lieutenant Mansfield Priestley-Evans, aged about 23 on 1 May 1915 Priestley-Evans and Packman feature in the photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve Battalion taken in Southport in December 1914. Priestley-Evans is exceptionally tall in that photograph, seeming to be at least as tall as, or even taller than, J.D. Barnsdale (Officer no 24). For that reason alone, I wonder if he might be Officer 14, whose height is comparable to that of Hugh Waterstone, Officer 15, who was 6 ft 3 in. Against that is the fact that in the photograph of the 5th Reserve Priestley-Evans seems to have a moustache, while Officer 14 is clean-shaven. I have no other photos of Priestley-Evans. In common with my GF and many others in the Bedford photo, Priestley-Evans was appointed as 2nd Lieutenant with the 2/5th LF wef 7 October 1914 (LG 14 October 1914). He was then appointed temporary Lieutenant wef 1 October 1915 (LG 16 May 1916), then he was appointed Captain wef 1 June 1916 according to the LG of 4 August 1917, at which time there appears to have been a general shake-up of the ranks of the Territorials in this LG. The LG of 24 December 1917 carried a notice that he had been "seconded whilst on prob. with Indian Army, R. of O., in the rank of Lt.", while the LG of 29 April had various notices charting his progress in the Indian Army (Lieutenant after passing his probation 23 January 1918, acting Captain while commanding a Company 9 March 1919, and Captain 7 October 1918. On 14/03/2024 at 14:44, Matthew B. said: Some info, if you did not have it, on MANSFIELD PRIESTLEY-EVANS: (Extracted from CWGC site), CAPTAIN MANSFIELD PRIESTLEY-EVANS Indian Army Reserve of Officers attached Indian Political Department (Asst. Political Officer, Diwaniyeh). Died 10 July 1920 - killed in the Arab Rising 1920 Buried or commemorated at BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY, Iraq Son of Evan David Priestley-Evans and Emily Evans, of White Gable, Seaton, Devon. Graduate of Oxford University June, 1914. Joined up Sept., 1914, in Lancashire Fusiliers. Born at Kidderminster. The General Registrars Office has his birth registered in the Kidderminster District of Worcestershire in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1891 – but they have him with surname Evans and forenames Mansfield Priestley. Mothers’ maiden name was Franks. In the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 28 year old E.D. Priestley Evans, (no hyphen), born Wales, who was recorded as the married head of the household at Sidney Villa, Birmingham Road, Kidderminster, Worcestershire. He was a Unitarian Minister. His wife was Emily EVANS, aged 28 and born Nottingham.There is also a live in domestic servant. An obituary in the 1929 Year book of the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches reads – “Evan David Piestley Evans … Educated at the University College of Wales and Manchester New College, 1881-89. He ministered at Loughborough, 1889-90; Kidderminster, 1890-1904, and Bury, Bank Street, 1904-1921. During his ministry at Bank Street he acted as Secretary of the North and East Lancashire Mission and joined with Dr. Travers Herford in editing the Jubilee volume on the history of the Mission and its churches. He also wrote a history of the Kidderminster Chapel. In both his long ministries he energetically engaged in work in wider spheres, while yet retaining a reputation as a powerful preacher and a good pastor. https://archive.org/details/yearbookofgenera0000gene_w7k2/page/n443/mode/2up?q=%22Priestley-Evans%22 Evan was a regular contributor to a publication called The Inquirer, which billed itself as a “journal of liberal religion, literature and social progress.”. There are many copies on Archive org. His “A history of the New Meering House, Kidderminster, 1782-1900” published in 1900, and available on Archive Org, included this picture of the man himself. Image courtesy https://archive.org/details/historyofnewmeet01evan/page/n193/mode/2up?q=%22Priestley-Evans%22 The Unitarian Church is still on Bank Street and their website has a history section, although Evan David Priestley Evans only gets a mention in the list of past ministers. https://www.bury-unitarian-church.org.uk/history.htm Still could be worth contacting them to see if they have or know the whereabouts of archives relating to the church. I believe there is also a large non-conformist collection in the University of Manchester Library, which potentially could also be holding papers relating to him. By the time of the 1901 Cenus of England & Wales the family had moved to The Manse, Shortheath, Kidderminster. The married Unitarian Minister, aged 38 and born Brecknockshire who was the head of the household was now recorded as “Evan D.P. Evans”. Living with him are his wife, (Emily, aged 38, born Nottingham) and their two children: - Mansfield P. Evans, aged 9, born Kidderminster. Gweneth M. Evans, aged 7, born Kidderminster. The household also ran to two live in servants. The birth of a Gweneth Margaret Evans, mothers’ maiden name Franks, was registered with the civil authorities in the Kidderminster District in Q2 1893. The 1911 Census of England & Wales would find the family at ‘West Royd”, 184 Manchester Road, Bury, Lancashire. Head of the family was the 48 year old married Unitarian Minister Evan David Priestley Evans, (no hyphen), now shown as born Lefa Coed Y Cymer, Brecknockshire. Living with him was his wife of 20 years, Emily Evans, aged 48 and born Nottingham. The union had so far produced two children, both still alive. They were:- Mansfield Priestley Evans, (no hyphen), aged 19, born Kidderminster, a Theological Student entering Oxford October 1911. Gweneth Margaret Evans, aged 17, born Kidderminster, no occupation shown. There was then the inevitable two live in servants. (Zoom in to the gates of 184 Manchester Road on the google streetviews image captured August 2023 and you can see the plaque on the pillars reads “West Royd”.) https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5837018,-2.2990749,3a,30y,266.29h,94.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGTKzKUTFiXIfnVZo4DciWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu The Oxford University Roll of Service records that M.P. Evans entered Lincoln College, Oxford in 1911. Having received his B.A. he joined the Army on October 7th 1914. He served as a Lieutenant, 5th Lancashire Fusiliers and a Captain in the Indian Army Reserve of Officers. He would see overseas service in France, (1915-16), India, (1916-19) and Mesopotamia, (1919). https://archive.org/details/oxforduniversity00univuoft/page/n255/mode/2up?q=Evans May be worthwhile contacting the Lincoln College Archivist. https://lincoln.ox.ac.uk/discover/lincoln-unlocked/the-archive The January 1917 British Army Monthly List still records him on the establishment of the 5th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers, serving with the 3/5th. He is recorded as M. Priestley-Evans, a Second Lieutenant with seniority from the 7th October 1914 and a local Lieutenant from the 1st October 1915. (Column 1087). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103213513 The January 1918 British Army Monthly List also records him on the establishment of the 5th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers, but now he is attached to the Indian Reserve. The rank of M. Priestley Evans is now shown as Captain, with seniority from the 1st June 1916. (Column 1087). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123141501 The 2nd Battalion, 1st Brahmans was a short-lived Indian infantry battalion formed at Sitapur in India on 26 November 1917. The Battalion's only commanding officer was Acting Lieutenant-Colonel Archibald Mactavish who was appointed from the 3rd Brahmans on 26 November 1917. (The source website researchingww1 co uk is rated unsafe by my service provider so I’ve not provided a link). From the Wikipedia article on the 1st Brahmans - A second battalion raised in 1917 saw service in the Persian Gulf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Brahmans A check of the July 1918 Indian Army List shows a Captain M.P. Evans, commissioned 14th October 1914, as a Captain and Company Commander in the 2/1st Brahmins with effect from the 27th January 1918. (Page 469b). https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.285012/page/n713/mode/2up?q=2+1st+Brahmans It’s possible that Battalion carried out a garrison role in the Persian Gulf area – I’m certainly not finding any images. The November 1918 British Army Monthly List still shows him on the establishment of the 5th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers as a Captain with seniority from the 1st June 1916 and attached to the Indian Army Reserve. (Column 1087). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123100209 Being retained on the establishment of the Lancashire Fusiliers even while serving with the Indian Army should mean his medals were issued by the British Army rather than the India Office and therefore, if he or his next of kin applied for them, there should be a MiC in the National Archive records. Unfortunately it’s a bit of a mess. Does however show him first landing in France on the 3rd May 1915 with the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers. Image courtesy Ancestry There is also a separate card noting the information received from the India Office in 1926 that they had issued the War Medal to his father. By the end of 1919 the 2/1st Brahmins no longer existed, and the Quarter 1 Indian Army List for 1920 simply shows him as a Captain on the strength of the Indian Army Reserve of Officers. (Column 502). https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278912/page/n395/mode/2up?q=%22Priestley-Evans%22 Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive. From The Pioneer Mail, August 20, 1920. Page 29. “I regret to have to record the death during action against a raiding party on the railway line of Captain N. Priestley Evans, I.A.R.O., Assistant Political Officer. He joined the political service just over ten months ago from India and was a gallant officer of great promise. Page 45. Roll of Honour. PRIESTLEY-EVANS. – Killed in action in Rumaitha, Mesopotamia on the 8th July 1920, Capt. M. Priestley-Evans, I.A.R.O., late 2/1 Brahmans. https://archive.org/details/pioneermail1920juldecv47/page/n421/mode/2up?q=%22Priestley-Evans%22&view=theater “Mesopotamia” by Arnold T. Wilson, published in 1931, adds this on page 278 The railway was cut in three places, isolating both Samawa and Rumaitha; 56 men of the 114th Mahrattas reached the latter place from Samawa on the 1st July, and nearly twice as many from Diwaniya next day, followed on 3rd July by a company of the 99th Infantry under Captain Bragg, who assumed command of the garrison, which numbered 4 British Officers and 300 Indian ranks, with some 200 Indian non-combatants, mostly of the Railway Department. On the 4th July the siege of Samawa began, the Arab tribesmen adopting trench-tactics which left little doubt that they were directed by Turkish officers; on 20th July, the siege was raised by a strong column from Baghdad under Brig.-Gen. Coningham, only just in time, for the garrison’s supply of food was almost exhausted…… Whilst these events were in progress several isolated posts were attached. Captain Priestley-Evans was cut off with a few Arab Levies at Khan Jadwal and died fighting, after a gallant defence in which Captain Wyatt-Hughes, of the Military Works Department, played a distinguished part. https://archive.org/details/bwb_KR-687-246/page/278/mode/2up (My emphasis). From a piece on the history of the Arab Levies. 1920- An Arab rebellion broke out, some Arab Levies deserted under pressure from their countrymen. 300 Levies made a successful night raid at Al Baidah. June- Fifty Arab Levies were attacked at Mahmudiyeh, the force fell back, loosing five killed and eight wounded. July 9th- Captain Priestly Evans and sixty Levies were attacked at Khan Jadwal, captain Priestly and ten levies were killed, they inflicted 100 casualties on the enemy. https://assyrianlevies.info/history.html His fiancee was Irene Rathbone – their relationship started in 1915 so not long before the Bedford picture was taken - and she would go on to write a fictionalised version of their relationship, “We that were young”. An introduction to one version of the book notes Mansfield was killed in a small village uprising. https://archive.org/details/wethatwereyoungn00rath/page/n21/mode/2up?q=%22Priestley-Evans%22&view=theater From Wikipedia Rathbone was born in Edgbaston in 1892. Her father's family was from Liverpool where the Rathbones were successful liberals. Her mother was Mary Robina, born Mathews, and her father, George, manufactured brass and copper items. She went to a Dame and later boarding school and she had two younger brothers. Before the war she was an aspiring actor. After it started she was initially working in canteens but she was trained as a Voluntary Aid Detachment nurse where she was posted to France before returning to nurse in London. Her friend was a munitions worker during the war. Rathbone's brother died of pneumonia while part of the forces occupying Germany in 1919 and in the following year her fiancée was killed in Iraq. Richard Aldington helped her publish her semi-autobiographical novel We That Were Young in 1932. It tells the story of a single woman who loses her brother and lover during the war. She lives a semi-bohemian life, joining 750,000 surplus women, and she treats her existence "with indifference". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Rathbone For those with access to JSTOR, this article, drawing on her contemporary wartime diary, may have more to say about her relationship with Mansfield. https://www.jstor.org/stable/4317009 See also this appreciation of her along with a picture from later in life. http://www.elisarolle.com/queerplaces/fghij/Irene%20Rathbone.html I wonder if there might be an archive of her papers somewhere that might include a picture of Mansfield? Mansfield Priestley Evans has this entry in the 1921 Probate Calendar showing the family still at the Manchester Road address Image courtesy probatesearch service gov uk Cheers, Peter Edited 16 March by PRC Typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March (edited) Brilliant as ever, @PRC . On 16/03/2024 at 18:46, PRC said: Mansfield Priestley Evans, (no hyphen), aged 19, born Kidderminster, a Theological Student entering Oxford October 1911. I got the hyphen from the later LG entries,not from my GF's memoir, and I wonder whether Mansfield himself was trying to opt for the hyphen as time went on? On 16/03/2024 at 18:46, PRC said: The January 1917 British Army Monthly List still records him on the establishment of the 5th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers, serving with the 3/5t When my GF went to Ripon in January 1917 on his way to recovering from being wounded in September 1916 he records that Lieutenant M.P. Evans was a Physical Training Instructor there. Something happened to Mansefield while the 2/5th LF were in the Somme area in August 1916, but it's not quite clear what. It doesn't seem to have been a physical wound, but he must have been repatriated at about that time. On 16/03/2024 at 18:46, PRC said: From The Pioneer Mail, August 20, 1920. I take it that you don't think the illustration shown in the page of The Pioneer reporting his death is a photograph of the man himself, as it appears at the head of a different column? On 16/03/2024 at 18:46, PRC said: His fiancee was Irene Rathbone – their relationship started in 1915 so not long before the Bedford picture was taken - and she would go on to write a fictionalised version of their relationship, “We that were young”. Irene Rathbone seems to have been an interesting woman. I see that the original WW1 diary is in the IWM .https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030001257 Wouldn't it be nice if she had pasted a photograph of her fiance into its pages? Meanwhile, I am well on the way to preparing my resume as to where we have got to with the photograph. I have decided to include a brief summary of the facts that are known about each man, as well as details of avenues still to be followed, so it is taking me a bit longer than anticipated. I have done 20 so far, and had hoped to finish it before we go away for a week next week, but our desktop has to go to the computer doctor tomorrow, and I can't do this sort of thing on the phone, so it may have to wait till we get back towards the end of the month. Edited 31 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March 11 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: I take it that you don't think the illustration shown in the page of The Pioneer reporting his death is a photograph of the man himself, as it appears at the head of a different column? I've had a good look but there aren't any images on any of the pages of that edition of The Pioneer Mail. Did You mean the Nottingham Evening Post edition I screenshotted from the British Newspaper Archive website? Unfortunately unless I visit the Library I don't have the access to the BNA to be able to see the contents. I am negotiating with Mrs C. but she drives a very hard bargain for such indulgences Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March 1 minute ago, PRC said: Did You mean the Nottingham Evening Post edition I screenshotted from the British Newspaper Archive website? Apologies - I did indeed - in preparing my post I stupidly just looked at the writing immediately beneath the screen shot - sorry! Without wishing to be presumptuous, maybe @brianmorris547 will be able to come to our rescue? I think that he may have a subscription. I am not especially hopeful that the photograph is going to be our man, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March Just checked the Nottingham Evening Post 20/08/1920. On page 1 there are reports of British Officials being killed in Mesopotamia, I did not see any Evans mentioned and the photograph above was of a Lifeboat on the East Coast. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March 50 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said: Just checked the Nottingham Evening Post 20/08/1920. On page 1 there are reports of British Officials being killed in Mesopotamia, I did not see any Evans mentioned and the photograph above was of a Lifeboat on the East Coast. Brian Thank you for checking, Brian, I thought that it didn't really look like a portrait photograph, but it was very dark, and I thought there might be a slim chance ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy I have sent the report by PM. 21/07/1920 Nottingham Evening Post. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March (edited) Just to update that I've been advised by PM that the photograph on the front page of the edition of the Nottingham Evening Post dated 21st July 1920 is unrelated to the piece on Priestley Evans. The article itself gives his death as the 10th July 1920, but otherwise very little additional information to what has already been posted other than to say the connection to Nottingham came through his mothers' family, the Franks. Cheers, Peter Edited 18 March by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 31 March Author Share Posted 31 March On 10/03/2024 at 00:10, PRC said: On the 1939 Register there is a George H. Goldsmith, born 1885, who was recorded living at 131 Lauderdale Mansions, Maida Vale, City Of Westminster, Paddington District, London. Also at this address is an Ethel Goldsmith, born 1897. Going back to the possible 1921 wedding, it may be a co-incidence but there was an Ethel Eyre whose birth was registered in the Sheffield District in Q4 1897. George died on the 28th August 1967 at 101 Tan-y-Bryne Road, Rhos-on-Sea, Colwyn Bay, Denbighshire, North Wales according to the 1967 Probate Calendar. This was barely a fortnight after the death of an Ethel Goldsmith of the same address, who died at the Royal Alexandra Hospital, Rhyl, Flintshire, on the 12th August 1967. Her probate was dealt with by a Kenneth George Worrall, chartered surveyor – I suspect our Mr. K.G. Worrall who had Georges’ photo album in his possession in the early 1980’s. It looks like George’s second marriage did produce two children - Kenneth Irven Goldsmith, mothers’ maiden name Eyre, birth registered in the Ecclesall Bierlow District, Q4 1922. Derrick Haydn Goldsmith, birth registered Sheffield District, Q2 1925. Both children would predecease their parents. https://scotsonfamilyhistory.com/getperson.php?personID=I10483&tree=SW1 I have done a little more research regarding George Hartley Goldsmith and Ethel Goldsmith by obtaining copies of their wills. Hartley made his will in August 1963, with a codicil in September 1966, while Ethel made hers in September 1966. Ethel's will is a simple will which, apart from a modest gift of £500 and her fur coat and clothes to Charlotte Gunter of 7 Wrottesley Road, Harlesden, left everything to her husband, or, if he predeceeased her, to Kenneth George Worrall of Coppins, Norton Road, Rhos on Sea, Colwyn Bay. Hartley's 1963 will left everything to his wife, or, if she predeceased him, a gift of all furniture, clothes, and articles of personal use or ornament and £1,000 to Charlotte Gunter "as some small reward for her services and kindness to Ethel Goldsmith and myself over many years", a gift of £1000 to Kenneth George Worrall "as a small acknowledgment of the help he has given me since I came to live in Rhos on Sea", with the rest to the Royal Masonic Hospital in London. The codicil varied this by revoking the gift of residue to the hospital, and giving the residue of the estate to Kenneth George Worrall instead, thus explaining why he had the photograph album referred to in PRC's earlier post. None of these documents make any mention of the children referred to in the part of PRC's post quoted above. Of course, they were both already dead by the date of Ethel's will and Hartley's codicil, but you might have expected that Hartley's will of 1963 would have mentioned Kenneth Goldsmith, who did not die until 1965. It is, of course, possible that father and son had become estranged prior to 1963. The other possibility is that neither Kenneth nor Derrick, who were certainly brothers, were Hartley's children, which would probably also mean that Ethel's maiden name was not Eyre, as it seems likely that both were the children of an Ethel Goldsmith whose maiden name was Eyre. The main suggestion that Ethel's maiden name was Eyre and that she and Hartley had the two children mentioned above comes from a ScotsonFamilyHistory family tree, which I understand would have been completed by ordinary people looking for their ancestors, who might, or might not, have been skilled at family research. I am certainly no expert in the field myself, but I called into our local library the other day to do a search on Ancestry. A search for a marriage for George Goldsmith or George H or George Hartley Goldsmith to an Ethel revealed no direct hits specifically for an Ethel, but in some cases no first name was given for the wife, including the marriage of George H Goldsmith that took place in Sheffield in 1921 to a woman with the surname of Eyre. The 1921 Census, as noted by PRC in red in his earlier post, shows a household in Sheffield in the occupation of 5 Goldsmiths, an older man born in 1864, and four others who appear to be of the next generation, born between 1897 and 1906, including George Harold Goldsmith (b. 1897), Ethel Goldsmith (b. 1901), and two other males, born 1903 and 1906 respectively. To me, this looks like a household with a man aged 57, and either his four children, or his three children and the wives of one of his sons. I checked for the death of an Ethel Goldsmith born in 1901, and found only one, who died in 1993 in Sheffield. To me, given the lack of reference to son Kenneth in the 1963 will, and the fact that there is no other known connection between George Hartley Goldsmith and Sheffield apart from, possibly, a marriage to a Sheffield woman called Ethel in 1921 and two children born in or near Sheffield in 1922 and 1925 respectively, it seems most likely that Hartley' did not marry an Ethel Eyre in Sheffield in 1921, but rather that the Sheffield Ethel Eyre married a Sheffield man named George Harold Goldsmith, that they lived in Sheffield with George's father initially, and continued to live in the Sheffield area when their two children were born, and, indeed, Ethel continued to live in Sheffield until she died in her 90s in 1993. Another pointer in this direction is that the death of Derrick Goldsmith, who was only 16 when he died in 1941, was registered in Penistone in the West Riding, while the death of Kenneth who died aged 43 in 1965 was registered in Sheffield; in other words, these two boys had a close affinity with Sheffield throughout their lives, and that just doesn't fit with what else we know for certain about George Hartley Goldsmith, including that he was living with Ethel in London at the time of the 1939 Register (when Derrick would have been 13 or 14). Although I am no expert, it seems to me much more likely that George Hartley Goldsmith's Ethel was a different Ethel, someone he met in France or London at some time before 1939, and that perhaps she was only a common law wife, or, if they married, they did so abroad, or possibly the marriage is registered giving his name only as George (not very likely in my view as he was always referred to by my GF as "Hartley Goldsmith") with no first name being entered for his wife. What is certain is that, when the couple died in 1967, they had no close relatives who they wanted to benefit in their wills, but instead gave all their estate to a neighbour who had been helpful to them after they moved to Rhos on Sea, a chartered surveyor called Kenneth George Worrall. By the way, I feel fairly sure that Hartley Goldsmith was still with his first wife, Margaret, when the 2/5th LF departed for France in May 1915, as my GF describes how Mrs Goldsmith, Mrs Kenneth Waterhouse, and Mrs Barnsdale went to Bedford to see their husbands just before their departure, and how, shortly after their train left Bedford, they passed Mrs Waterhouse, Mrs Goldsmith and Mrs Barnsdale "standing on the railway fencing waving their fond au revoirs". It will be recalled that the Goldsmiths and Waterhouses knew each other, with Kenneth Waterhouse and his wife living in Hale in 1911, and Hartley Goldsmith's parents having lived there, and both men playing golf at Rhos on Sea Golf Club. John Barnsdale also seems to have had a connection with Hale as that was where he was at the time of the 1911 census. It is therefore almost certain that the Mrs Goldsmith whom my GF knew in 1915 was the first Mrs Goldsmith, whom he was definitely still with in 1911 On 12/03/2024 at 00:33, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: However, in case "family likeness" may come into play, I know of two pictures of his brother, Jack, from the IWM site Lives of the First World War and the British Jews in the First World War website respectively: In the passage quoted above I was referring to Baron Harold Rothband, and his brother Jack Rothband, whose face we do have pictures, in case there was any family likeness between the brothers. I know that there is absolutely no guarantee that there will be any family likeness between members of the same family, but we do in fact also have photos of a cousin, Percy Lionel Rothband who was in the 1/4th South Lancashires, and therefore in the same Division as the 2/th LF, the 55th Division, from January 1916. Percy Rothband was the son of Sir Henry Rothband, a Manchester industrialist, and was educated at Harrow School and Trinity College, Cambridge. He attained tha rank of Captain during the war, and is mentioned chiefly by my GF for managing the "Divisional Canteen, Divisional Baths, Theatre Party, Cinema, Barber’s Shop & Fish and chip Saloon" at Guoy in the spring of 1916. Tragically, in 1926 he shot himself while travelling on a train arriving into Manchester, leaving a letter addressed to his father saying that he couldn't any longer stand not being able to sleep. Here is a photograph of Percy at Harrow School courtesy of the British Jews in the First World War website : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 31 March Share Posted 31 March (edited) 5 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: I have done a little more research regarding George Hartley Goldsmith and Ethel Goldsmith by obtaining copies of their wills. Hartley made his will in August 1963, with a codicil in September 1966, while Ethel made hers in September 1966. To me, given the lack of reference to son Kenneth in the 1963 will, and the fact that there is no other known connection between George Hartley Goldsmith and Sheffield apart from, possibly, a marriage to a Sheffield woman called Ethel in 1921 and two children born in or near Sheffield in 1922 and 1925 respectively, it seems most likely that Hartley' did not marry an Ethel Eyre in Sheffield in 1921, but rather that the Sheffield Ethel Eyre married a Sheffield man named George Harold Goldsmith, that they lived in Sheffield with George's father initially, and continued to live in the Sheffield area when their two children were born, and, indeed, Ethel continued to live in Sheffield until she died in her 90s in 1993. Another pointer in this direction is that the death of Derrick Goldsmith, who was only 16 when he died in 1941, was registered in Penistone in the West Riding, while the death of Kenneth who died aged 43 in 1965 was registered in Sheffield; in other words, these two boys had a close affinity with Sheffield throughout their lives, and that just doesn't fit with what else we know for certain about George Hartley Goldsmith, including that he was living with Ethel in London at the time of the 1939 Register (when Derrick would have been 13 or 14). Although I am no expert, it seems to me much more likely that George Hartley Goldsmith's Ethel was a different Ethel, someone he met in France or London at some time before 1939, and that perhaps she was only a common law wife, or, if they married, they did so abroad, or possibly the marriage is registered giving his name only as George (not very likely in my view as he was always referred to by my GF as "Hartley Goldsmith") with no first name being entered for his wife. By the way, I feel fairly sure that Hartley Goldsmith was still with his first wife, Margaret, when the 2/5th LF departed for France in May 1915, as my GF describes how Mrs Goldsmith, Mrs Kenneth Waterhouse, and Mrs Barnsdale went to Bedford to see their husbands just before their departure, and how, shortly after their train left Bedford, they passed Mrs Waterhouse, Mrs Goldsmith and Mrs Barnsdale "standing on the railway fencing waving their fond au revoirs". It will be recalled that the Goldsmiths and Waterhouses knew each other, with Kenneth Waterhouse and his wife living in Hale in 1911, and Hartley Goldsmith's parents having lived there, and both men playing golf at Rhos on Sea Golf Club. John Barnsdale also seems to have had a connection with Hale as that was where he was at the time of the 1911 census. It is therefore almost certain that the Mrs Goldsmith whom my GF knew in 1915 was the first Mrs Goldsmith, whom he was definitely still with in 1911 Well Thursday saw me in the Library doing two solid hours of simply downloading (some of) the items on my wishlist and now I'm starting to try and make sense of them all. Firstly a briefish recap on George Hartley Goldsmith. There is a strong and compelling case that George trained and worked as an architect – the profession of his father and grandfather – interspersed with his Great War service. From the professional side we know part of the time pre-war was spent in London in the firm of Lutyens. By 1910 he was back in practice in Manchester. That led me to put forward from the 1911 Census of England & Wales a 25 year old Architect & employer George Hartley Goldsmith, born Bowdon, Cheshire, recorded as the married head of the household at 16 Lansdowne Street, Withington, Manchester. He lives there with his wife of 2 years, Margaret, aged 23 and born Workington, Cumberland. Sadly the only child of the union so far had already died. Tieing in with what is known about his whereabouts professionally and with his wifes’ first name there is then the marriage of a George Hartley Goldsmith to a Margaret Dalzell Hollywood which was recorded in the Fulham District of London in Q1 1909. There is also a child Francis Goldsmith, mothers’ maiden name Hollywood, whose birth, and most likely death in Q4 1910 were recorded in the Chorlton District of Lancashire. Neither George or Margaret appear to be recorded on the 1921 Census of England & Wales, nor are there any likely additional births in the civil records for those countries. However from the professional side we know on leaving the Army George went to work for the War Graves Commission as an architect, and when he applied for his service medals in October 1921 he gave an address in France. At that point there was no reason to suspect that Margaret wasn’t with him. In 1927 George resigns from the War Graves Commission and sets up in practice in London, at first in a partnership and then later by himself. So this makes it likely that he is the George H. Goldsmith, born 1885, who was recorded living at 131 Lauderdale Mansions, Maida Vale, City Of Westminster, Paddington District, London on the 1939 Register. But also at this address is an Ethel Goldsmith, born 1897. So that raised the question – who is Ethel, (born 1897) and what had happened to Margaret, (born c1887). There is no obvious death of Margaret post April 1911 in England & Wales, no overseas record of her death held by the General Registrars Office, no obvious remarriage in England & Wales or notified via an overseas consulate. But there is a record of the marriage of a George H. Goldsmith to an Ethel Eyre in the Sheffield District in Q1 1921, and a family history website believes this to be George Hartley Goldsmith – although it makes no mention of the earlier marriage. In part this is supported by the fact that there is an Ethel Eyre in the civil birth and earlier census records born Sheffield c1897. This Sheffield marriage would produce two children, Kenneth Irven Goldsmith, Q4 1922 \ died 1965 and Derrick Haydn Goldsmith, Q2 1925 \ died 1941. My library wishlist included the 1921 Census of England & Wales return for Ethel Goldsmith in Sheffield, but with husband George absent, and the 1939 Register entry for George & Ethel. Fortunately for me I started on the 1939 Register first. There are only two entries in the household at 131 Lauderdale Mansions – no officially closed entries that could potentially have been Kenneth or Derrick. And going against expected convention the first person listed is Ethel, and there looks to have been several attenpts at the year of her birth, (although possibly one set of marks could be the initials of the person who made the change). She could have been born on the 8th May in 1895, 1897 or 1898. Ethel was carrying out unpaid domestic duties. Although her entry shows her as married it can only be an assumption based on this evidence alone that she was married to George Goldsmith, the married architect born 6th April 1885 who is the second person in the household. There is another character after George which could be an H., an M. or a squiggle! Image courtesy FindMyPast. So the question in my mind while I had the 1939 Register available was where were their children Kenneth or Derrick? Neither would have been old enough to have been mobilised by the time the Register was taken on the 29th September 1939. And both died before the 1990’s so their records should be open. In fact they are both there, as the second and third person in the household at 7 Swanbourne Place, Sheffield. But what’s interesting is the first person – the married woman Ethel Goldsmith born 28th August 1901. I think we can now safely rule her out as the woman in the London flat. Which leads us round in a circle to who is Ethel and what happened to Margaret? When Ethel died on the 12th August 1967 in Hospital in Rhyl the age given to the Registrar was 72, pointing towards a circa 1895 birth – so one of the options from the 1939 Register. Starting with Margaret it just opens up another can of worms. The 1911 Census of England & Wales records her forenames as Margaret, aged 23 and born Workington, Cumberland, while from the marriage and her son Francis we have a maiden name of Hollywood and a middle name of Dalzell. But the nearest match to that in the civil birth records is a Maggie Hollywood, mothers’ maiden name Brown, whose birth was registered in the Cockermouth District of Cumberland in Q2 1888 and for whom there is a likely match on the 1891, 1901 and 1911 Censuses, all at addresses that fall within the Cockermouth Civil Registration District. A search for Hollywood's \ Dalzell's of the right age with a Workington connection on the censuses doesn’t give any help – either male or with census match in 1911 that places them elsewhere. It seems like Margaret doesn’t exist before the 1909 wedding or after the 1911 Census. So one step forward, two steps back. I’m afraid the answer or at least part of it may lie in his officers file. Cheers, Peter Edited 31 March by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 1 April Author Share Posted 1 April (edited) Thank you @PRC, that seems to debunk the Sheffield connection fairly conclusively. Meanwhile, I have been having another look at J.D. Barnsdale, particularly in the light of looking at past editions of Sedbergh's school magazine, which are available online. There are 22 entries relating to him between the years of 1892 and 1918. Many of the entries simply contain details of his attendance at the school, with his address, which is given as his mother's address, suggesting that his father was no longer present. The address is Lucknow Drive, Mapperley Park, Nottingham throughout his attendance at the school. There are then also, as expected, a number of entries relating to his participation in sports at the school, though I have to say his performance in football and cricket look surprisingly average to me, given his later participation in those sports. After he left the school there are continuing reports of his sporting activities while at Cambridge, including taking part in running and rowing events. More surprising is the announcement in the February 1910 edition of his engagement to a Miss I.F. Gordon. Not surprisingly there is no corresponding announcement of a marriage, given that he married Helen Bowden later that year. There are subsequent announcements of the birth of sons in August 1915 and March 1918. Relevant to WW1 is his appearance in a 1914 Supplement to the magazine which lists all alumni known to be serving in November 1914. Rather surprisingly, he is said to be a Captain in "5th Batt. East Lancs RFA". From consulting LLT I understand this to be the 5th East Lancashire Battery, a unit in the 1/1st East Lancashire Brigade RFA, which went to Egypt with the East Lancashire Division in September 1914. There is no mention of his appointment to that unit in the London Gazette, so far as I am aware. On the contrary, the LG of 14 October 1914 announces the appointment of Barnsdale "late Captain, 1st Volunteer Battalion, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment" as a captain in the 5th Battalion LF. Has the school magazine made a simple error? Or was Barnsdale briefly informally attached to the RFA, expecting to stay with them, informed the school of his attachment, and omitted to update them when he moved on? Perhaps he moved on when the unit went to Egypt if he wasn't ready to serve overseas at that stage, and/or perhaps he opted to follow his friends Waterhouse and Goldsmith into the 5th LF. The other entry in the school magazines of interest in the context of WW1 comes in a 1917 Supplement, and lists Major Barnsdale as having been wounded in December 1916. Regarding my suggestion that Barnsdale may have opted to follow his friends, Goldsmith and Kenneth Waterhouse, into the 5th LF, my GF tells us that he (my GF) went down to the Drill Hall in Bury at 9.00am on the morning of 12 September 1914 and that that was the morning on which Goldsmith and Waterhouse first reported to the Drill Hall to apply for commissions in the 5th LF. My GF then had to go back to Liverpool where he was based in order to present himself for training with the KLR 3rd City Battalion (he was a private in the Liverpool Pals at that point) later that day, and was away from Bury until he was gazetted as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 5th LF on 14 October 1914, at which stage he immediately returned. He tells us that while he was away from Bury several others had joined, including Barnsdale, so it is quite feasible that Barnsdale followed Goldsmith and Waterhouse into the 5th LF, which was just at that point in the course of being formed. In addition @brianmorris547 has established that the 1911 census gives us an address for J.D. Barnsdale as Mapperley, Westgate, Hale, Cheshire. I couldn't help but be struck by the name of the house being the same as the area of Nottingham where Barnsdale lived as a child, and I wonder whether the house was named by Barnsdale himself because the name had happy associations for him. I also searched the document that PRC turned up regarding buildings designed by Hartley Goldsmith's father in Hale, https://www.trafford.gov.uk/planning/strategic-planning/docs/June2015ConsultationDocuments/caa-south-hale-draft-2015.pdf , and was delighted to find, not Mapperley exactly, but Mapperly, in Arthog Road. However, Arthog Road seems to be quite a distance from Westgate, so perhaps this is a red herring, although it does seem quite a striking coincidence. Returning, however, to the friendship between Barnsdale, Goldsmith and Kenneth Waterhouse, as well as them all hailing from Hale, I have already mentioned their wives joining forces to wave off their husbands from Bedford in May 1915, and I would be prepared to wager that Barnsdale also played golf at the Rhys on Sea Golf Club with the other two, though he didn;t make it into the ROH in 1915, perhaps because he wasn't actually a member or had moved away by then. However, having joined the 5th LF, the men tended to hang out together. While they were training in Southport my GF says "We usually had our own little crowd at the top end of the table, Capt Waterhouse, Goldsmith, Barnsdale, George [Norman's older brother, born 1886], and myself", and he also says "Maj Milnes, Waterhouse, Goldsmith, George, and Barnsdale often gathered at the “Deep End” in Lawdie’s little abode." It is only now that I begin to understand better the dynamics which brought these three men together. Edited 2 April by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 1 April Share Posted 1 April On 12/03/2024 at 00:33, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: Regarding Rothband, his appointment as 2nd Lieutenant in the 5th Battalion of the LF was published in the LG of 23 February 1915, where he was described as "Private Baron Harold Rothband, from Inns of Court Officer Training Corps", the date of his appointment being 23 January 1915 according to a correction in the LG of 8 July 1915. He then became temporary Lieutenant wef 25 April 1915 (LG 18 May 1915), and temporary Captain wef 30 June 1916 (LG 21 March 1917). In the shake-up in the ranks of the Territorials which was published in the LG of 4 August 1917 Rothband relinquished his temporary captaincy but was confirmed as a full Lieutenant wef 5 August 1917. A correction was issued in the LG of 21 November 1917 which was to the effect that he retained his acting captaincy but was to have the pay and allowance of a Lieutenant. Later he was appointed to full Captain wef 7 February 1918 (LG 25 March 1918). My GF records that Rothband went to hospital while they were at the front facing Guillemont on 5 August 1916. The Battalion WD states that Rothband was suffering from shellshock at this point, and the Manchester Guardian for 9 August 1916 reported that he had been brought to England suffering from shellshock, also mentioning that his brother Jacob (Jack) Eustace Rothband had recently been killed in action (19 July 1916). My GF mentions him only once more, when he met him at Ripon where my GF was on Home Service recovering from being seriously wounded at Ginchy on 9 September 1916. In WW2 B.H. Rothband was a stalwart of the Home Guard, being appointed Lieutenant Colonel of a Battalion of the Home Guard according to the Manchester Guardian for 22 March 1941. I have no other photographs of him other than this one, from the Manchester Evening News for 18 August 1941 courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive, which tells us little apart from that he was not a very tall man. Other things I know about him are that his father was Mr. W.S. Rothband of Cheetham Hill. He probably went to Manchester Grammar School like his brother Jack, so they may be able to help with photos. He was married to Mabel, and in 1920, when they were living at 32 Broadway, Withington, Manchester, they had a son (presumably the Geoffrey pictured above who was at Dunkirk aged 19), and later they had a daughter, Margaret, who married a surgeon, Cyril J. Livingstone, in 1949. Still of Broadway, Withington, he died in 1965. Filling in the earlier part of his life:- The birth of a Baron Harold Rothband, mothers’ maiden name Herman, was registered with the civil authorities in the Prestwich District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1886. According to “A Biographical Register of Old Mancunians 1888-1951” he was born on the 2nd November 1886. https://archive.org/details/biographicalregi0000vari/page/132/mode/2up?q=%22W.S.+Rothband%22&view=theater In the source I have for the 1891 Census of England & Wales I can see the census taker has made rather a mess of things, which in turn has led to the family surname being transcribed as Rothrock. The family were living at 61 Elizabeth Street, Cheetham, Manchester. Judging from the names and birth places of the husbands and wives who headed up neighbouring household I suspect this might be a small Jewish enclave. Father William S., (41, born Austria), was a Manufacturer, Chemical Works. Mother Marian S., was 39 and born Poland. Williams’ mother, Mitliam(?) was living with them, (aged 69, Living on Owns Means, possibly “Widowed” but census takers handwriting is unclear, born Austria). Children living with them are:- Minnie……aged 18…born Manchester…Dressmakers Apprentice Adelaide….aged 16…born Manchester…Dressmakers Apprentice Esther…….aged 14…born Manchester…Scholar Jacob……..aged 12…born Manchester…Scholar Sidney……aged 10...born Manchester…Scholar Baron H….aged 4…..born Manchester There is also a live in servant. The death of a 16 year old Sidney Rothband was recorded in the Prestwich District in Q2 1896. The Rothband family were still living at 61 Elizabeth Street, Cheetham, at the time of 1901 Census of England & Wales. As well as parents William S., (50, India Rubber Manufacturer) and Marian, (48) children living with them includes their married daughter Minnie Cassell, (28, born Manchester) and their grandson Merton C. Cassell, (3, born Manchester). Unmarried children still at home are Ettie, (24), Jacques, (22, Commission Agent working on own account), “Barron” H., (15) and Ernest A., (10). There is also a live in servant. That year Baron Harold Rothband joined the family business of W.S. Rothband India Rubber Manufacturers, having attended Manchester Grammar School from 1897-1901. Source: “A Biographical Register of Old Mancunians 1888-1951” https://archive.org/details/biographicalregi0000vari/page/132/mode/2up?q=%22W.S.+Rothband%22&view=theater In 1910 Baron was made a partner in the family business. Source:“A Biographical Register of Old Mancunians 1888-1951” https://archive.org/details/biographicalregi0000vari/page/132/mode/2up?q=%22W.S.+Rothband%22&view=theater The Rothband family had moved to 153 Cheetham Hill Road, Manchester, by the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales but the head of the household was noted as being away. Their daughter Minnie Cassell, (37) was now recorded as a widow. Also in the household was a Merton Cyril Cassell, (13), grandson of the head, and Doris Cassell, (7, born Johannesburg, South Africa), grand-daughter of the head. Also resident were two sons of the head of the household, Baron Harold Rothband, (24) and Ernest Albert Rothband, (19), both employed as Rubber Merchants. There is also a live in servant. The company W.S. Rothband & Co in one form or another probably dates back to the 1840’s. “Rubber sheeting, (“WSRM” trademark) for bed protection, was the mainstay of the business by the turn of the century and continued to be a major line, selling all over the world and to “poor institutions, sanitary, lunatic asylums, delinquent schools” and most popular hospitals in the UK until the 1950s.” “Around 1910, a relative working in the rainwear industry with a chemistry background introduced the idea of leaded rubber for use as an “X-RAY CLOTH” – The Rothband lead apron was born.” The company also had a surgical appliance and instruments side.https://rothband.com/about-us Another relative Henry Lesser Rothband “began campaigning for an employment scheme for disabled ex-servicemen in 1915, issuing pamphlets detailing his proposals for a "royal roll of employers willing to employ one or more disabled men, that is to say, a permanent guarantee of employment embodied in book form and distributed to all employment agencies, and not a mere agency itself. Mr Rothband wrote all of his ideas for the scheme into a book entitled "Employment of Disabled Sailors and Soldiers", published in 1917. In clarifying the scheme’s principles in a pamphlet in 1918, he writes: “if the State had a right to take men from their civil employment into the service of their country, it has a corresponding duty to restore these men to civil employment when it has no longer need of them in the Army. Finally, in 1919, Rothband’s ideas became a reality under the name the King’s National Roll Scheme , with King George V issuing a special proclamation appealing to employers to support it. The Scheme called for five percent of every business to be reserved for the employment of those who had been disabled in the First World War.” https://rothband.com/about-us The death of father William Samuel Rothband, aged 66, was recorded in the Chorlton District in Q4 1916. The 1916 Probate Calendar records him as still living at 153 Cheetham Hill Road, Manchester, although he died on the 19th October 1916 at “Anisdale”, Palatine Road, Withington, Manchester. Recorded as an India Rubber Manufacturer, probate was granted at the Manchester Court on the 23rd November to Mary Selina Rothband, widow. Note in probate calendar terms that just means she was a widow, not necessarily his widow. The entry above is for William’s son Jacob Eustace Rothband, Captain, 23rd Manchester Regiment, who died on the 19th July at Trones Wood, France, on active service. Probate for him was granted at the London Court on the 25th August 1916 to Marion Rothband, the wife of William Samuel Rothband, Oddly Jacobs’ estate at £2,710 was bigger than Williams’ at £1,092 4s 9d. Jacob “Jack” Eustace Rothband was also a member of the Freemasons, having been initiated into the Old Mancunians No.3140 E.C on the 2nd November 1908. https://www.masonicgreatwarproject.org.uk/legend.php?id=2670 Baron would be Master of that Lodge later in life. Source: “A Biographical Register of Old Mancunians 1888-1951” https://archive.org/details/biographicalregi0000vari/page/132/mode/2up?q=%22W.S.+Rothband%22&view=theater I could find nothing to indicate younger brother Ernest saw service in the Great War, (or attended Manchester Grammar School for that matter). The MiC of Baron Harold Rothband originally recorded him landing in France on the 2nd May 1915 as a Captain in the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers, but this was subsequently amended to Lieutenant. When he applied for his medals in April 1921 he gave a contact address of 32 Broadway, Withington, Manchester. From an interview with his son Geoffrey in 2015. “In 1914 my father enlisted in the Lancashire regiment. He was second in command of a rifle company, was wounded in the trenches in 1916 and invalided home. His brother, my Uncle Jack was killed in battle in the trenches just after the battle of the Somme, he was 37. My mothers only brother, Lionel Franks went to live in Hull. Lionel joined at 18 to the East Yorkshire Regiment, went to France as 2nd lieutenant with the 8th battalion and was very severely wounded at the Battle of Arras in April 1917. He had only been in France three weeks. Lionel was taken to hospital in Rouen, his parents got to the hospital and spent three weeks holding his hand watching him die. There wasn’t a rabbi available when he died and he had a Christian funeral.” https://www.lancs-fusiliers.co.uk/feature/Geoffery_Rothband/LtColRothband.htm Although I can’t see the detail, the 1921 Census of England & Wales has a Baron Harold Rothband, born Manchester c1886 recorded in a household in South Manchester. Recorded in the same household was a Mabel Rothband, (born Manchester c1896) and a Geoffrey William Rothband, (born Manchester c1920) and two others. The marriage of a Baron H. Rothband to a Mabel Franks was recorded in the Hull District in Q3 1919. The birth of a Geoffrey William Rothband, mothers’ maiden name Franks, was registered with the civil authorities in the Chorlton District in Q3 1920. The birth of a Margaert Rothband, mothers’ maiden name Franks, was registered with the civil authorities in the Chorlton District in Q2 1923. The death of mother Marion Rothband, aged 81, was recorded in the Manchester South District in Q1 1933.The 1933 Probate Calendar records she was living at Beechfield, 14 The Beeches, Barlow Moor Road, West Didsbury, Manchester, and was a widow when she died on the 5th March 1933. Probate was granted at the Manchester Court on the 4th May to Baron Harold Rothband and Ernest Albert Rothband, india rubber manufacturers. The Old Mancunians Association, in the edition of Ulula for December 1941, states they have lost contact with a member from 1901, Baron H. Rothband, last known to be resident at 32 Broadway, Withington, Manchester. https://www.mgs-life.co.uk/Documents/Ulula/1941_12.pdf The 1939 Register finds a Baron H. Rothband, born 1886, recorded at 32 Broadway, Manchester. At the same address is a Mabel Rothband, born 1896. 7th September 1940 Hull Daily Mail. Will of Mr. Benn Franks. Article on BNA mentions Son-in-law Baron Harold Rothband, surgical instrument maker, of 6 Didsbury Court, Didsbury, Manchester. From that 2015 interview with son Geoffrey Rothband. In WWII my father was pulled out of his office when the Germans were approaching the channel ports and asked to form a battalion of local defence volunteers. Father resigned his presidency of the Synagogue and formed the 46th Battalion (South Manchester & Withington) which he commanded until the Home Guard stood down. When asked why he resigned the presidency of the Synagogue he said “I’d rather try to stop the enemy at the gates of the city than on the steps of the Synagogue” https://www.lancs-fusiliers.co.uk/feature/Geoffery_Rothband/LtColRothband.htm While looking for online pictures of Geoffrey to add to the one already sourced, I came across this piece. (Selected highlights). Lifelong Manchester City supporter Lieutenant Colonel Geoffrey Rothband received the perfect 102nd birthday present. For Blues ace Bernardo Silva sent Col Rothband — who first watched his beloved City in the 1930s — a special birthday message after their thrilling 3-3 draw at Newcastle United on Sunday. The Portuguese international midfielder sent his birthday greetings and told Col Rothband he was sorry that City could not get the three points for the centenarian. Born in Withington to Mabel and Baron Rothband, Col Rothband was taken to his first City game by his paternal uncle, Ernest. He had joined the Fusiliers in December, 1938, and was commissioned shortly afterwards. Seeing combat throughout the war from Dunkirk to Burma via East Africa and Madagascar, Col Rothband remained in the service in commanding a Territorial Battalion of the Fusiliers until 1962, reaching the rank of Lieutenant Colonel and being awarded the Territorial Decoration for long service. Col Rothband is a lifelong member of South Manchester Synagogue, Bowdon, where his father served as president when the shul was located in Fallowfield, and is now a resident at Belong Morris Feinman in Didsbury. Col Rothband’s love for City has been passed on to Nigel, who has hosted the Man City Show podcast for the past decade. Nigel is also a regular pundit in City Square before home games and contributes a weekly column on the BBC Football website. Extracts courtesy https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10159445177112832&set=a.10150360181797832 From that it would appear Baron Rothbands’ grandon Nigel Rothband may well have a sizeable online presence, and also appears keen on family history, so I thought he might be approachable about images of Baron that could be used to make a comparison. As well as X, (formerly Twitter), Instagram, facebook and LinkedIn, amongst others, Nigel also has a video up on Youtube where he talks about his family history – and from that at last we have a picture of Baron. Out of the faces I believe we haven’t got a plausible match for yet possibly a case for Officer 17 to be considered, although if the identity of Officer 9 is in question he might be a possibility as well. No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Posted 2 April Author Share Posted 2 April Brilliant @PRC , especially to find the picture of Rothband hidden away in the YouTube video. This is just a brief reply as our computer is going away again, hopefully to be fixed properly this time, but did you consider Officer 1 as a possible match for Rothband? I know that it upsets a number of apple carts if that turns out to be him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 2 April Share Posted 2 April 42 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said: but did you consider Officer 1 as a possible match for Rothband? I was trying to stay away from upsetting apple carts until we'd ruled 17 and 9 completely out The picture we now have of Baron Rothband is a semi-stylised one, so difficult to be sure but looks to me like his chin is more pointed, (a la 9), rather than broad like 17 & 1. Bottom lip looks more like 9 than 17 & 1 Ear shape is marginally more 17 than 9 & 1. The top right eyelid, (their right), on all three images looks a bit heavy \ droopy. Eyebrows on the image of Baron Rothband look comparable to Officer 9, but difficult to make out the comparable parts of the face on 17 & 1. Nose could be either 17 or 9, but while I don't think 1 can be ruled out, to me it looks less convincing. One thing I did notice while looking again is that while nearly all the officers have a version of the cap badge over the small Territorial Force "T" as a collar badge, Officer 17 is one of the few who appears to have a more generic Fusiliers badge, probably over a Territorial Force "T". Of course it could be a trick of the light, but you'd of thought it would have also affected the officers alongside him or above and below him if that was the case. The others appear to be Officer 10 and Officer 30. Going back to your post about the friendship between Barnsdale, Goldsmith and Kenneth Waterhouse, when I did a preliminary search of BNA with a view to putting together a libray hitlist, I came across several references to a B.H. Rothband taking part in Golf competitons in the north-west of England in the twenties. However when I checked out the first couple they seemed to have that name amongst inter-club competitons amongst course professionals so I didn't download anything. With the benefit of hindsight I'm beginning to wonder if I may have mis-read the reports and Baron was another golf afficianado playing in another competiton at the same time or even if it was some sort of pro\amateur event - that Youtube video refers to how sport was a major part of family life. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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