Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The usual date to assume the higher rank was commonly either, with effect the date of the order itself, or a with effect a date clearly specified within the order.  Seniority would often be backdated.  Whichever method was applied the primary record of the promotion was made in the London Gazette and led to the phrase when were you gazetted being a common means of identifying an officers seniority.  It should be possible to trace an individual’s promotions in archived editions of the London Gazette accessible online, although I do not know if every single edition has survived.  As far as I know this tradition still survives, it certainly did in my own time despite it being generations later.

So in the case of Barmsdale, seniority as a Major from the 25th April 1915, gazetted 18th May 1915, when would he have first worn the insignia of a Major?
Or is the answer to that dependant on another document, ("the order"), which may possibly exist in his surviving personal file https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C674313

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, PRC said:

So in the case of Barmsdale, seniority as a Major from the 25th April 1915, gazetted 18th May 1915, when would he have first worn the insignia of a Major?
Or is the answer to that dependant on another document, ("the order"), which may possibly exist in his surviving personal file https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C674313

Cheers,
Peter

You would need to see the order for the specifics Peter.  The gazette tidies things up and gives the important dates for the record that will affect pension and seniority amongst peer group, etc.

Edited 18 February by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

So we have a primary set of documentary evidence, the British Army Monthly Lists, that shows in theory that on the 1^st May 1915 the 2/5^th Battalion had an officer establishment that included two Majors and eight Captains.

A week prior it had one Major and six Captains.

A neat solution would be that the date on the photograph is wrong, but I don’t think we can count on that.

So the practicality is that either the practice was not to wear the promoted rank insignia until it was formally gazetted, or that the battalion order authorising the promotion gave a date of seniority and a different date \circumstance, (gazetting?) from which the promoted rank insignia could worn – and that would take effect after the 1^st May.

As there are eight officers potentially in the photograph during the period when the officer establishment was in a state of flux, then that to me suggests you can’t rely on rank, when it can be identified, as a strong identifier – at least not with any great confidence, and certainly not if identification has been arrived at purely by a process of elimination.

Of course I’m not setting myself up as the oracle and other equally valid opinions will be available

Earlier @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy provided three new pictures and asked:-

20 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

The first is the wedding photo from The Gentlewoman of 9 July 1910, but sadly is horribly dark. The second is a photograph of Barnsdale as one of the directors of the Raleigh Cycle Company in the context of a story which appeared in the Beeston Gazette and Echo for 14 May 1922 about the expansion of its factory, and the third is from The Sketch for 1924. Are any of these any help?

I think they certainly do. The 1910 picture is too dark to use for a side by side comparison, but from what can be seen, look at the chin. Unless that’s a blemish on the original photograph or the printers block made from it, that the shape looks awfully familiar.

The 1922 picture also features that chin, along with the extended (his) left eyebrow that is so similar to officer 24.

The 1924 picture appears to have a blemish in the chin area, but hairline, nose and ear shape appear consistant with the 1922 picture and even what little can be discerned from the 1910 picture. Ear shape and nose is consistant also with the picture of the older John Barnsdale I posted earlier and used for a comparison.

The hesitation for me is the way the tips of the ears on officer 24 bend out, which doesn’t appear to be the case with the other pictures found so far.

So I went back to looking for more pictures. Using the free access to Newspapers com this weekend I came across a large number of mentions of a J.D. Barnsdale.

A particular strand was in connection with pieces written between the thirties and fifties, often in connection with a retirement or death, that reminisced about a golden generation of amateur footballers that came out of Nottinghamshire.

Here’s a typical one from 1951, following the death of a Major Frederick Chapman, amateur footballer who played for England and a Territorial Force artillery officer in the Great War. Note the reference to Barnsdale as a Major.

Image courtesy Newspaper.com

Originally playing for Nottingham Magdala, certainly in the period 1904-1907, (a fan website says 1903-05), John was also playing for Nottingham Forest as an amateur half-back judging from the team lists and match reports in contemporary newspapers. He also turned out for an all amateur England International team in February 1909 against France, and January 1910 versus Wales. He was also associated competitively with golf, lawn tennis and cricket – unless there was another contemporary J.D. Barnsdale.

From the Trentbridge co uk  website that provided the picture of John in later life, in a piece on the Nottinghamshire County Cricket side of 1905 - “Wicket-keeper John Barnsdale played for Notts Forest CC – and made 25 appearances for Nottingham Forest FC – and was a director of the Raleigh Bicycle Company. He made his one and only First-Class appearance for Notts at The Parks as Oxford University were defeated by 88 runs in two days in June.” https://www.trentbridge.co.uk/trentbridge/history/seasons/1905.html

And while looking for him as a Nottingham Forest football player I cam across this named picture of the Notts Magdala Football Club side of 1905-06.

Image courtesy http://www.danielpeacock.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Notts-Magdala-1905-06.png

And with that I think we have a connection to the ear shape of officer 24.

So here’s an updated side by side comparison:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Picture sources

1905-06 dated image. http://www.danielpeacock.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Notts-Magdala-1905-06.png
1915 dated image. This thread, owner @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
1922 dated image. Beeston Gazette and Echo 14 May 1922 sourced British Newspaper Archive.
1924 dated image. The Sketch 31 December 1924 sourced British Newspaper Archive.
Undated image. https://www.trentbridge.co.uk/trentbridge/history/players/john-barnsdale.html
Officer 24. This thread, owner @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

Cheers,
Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, Peter, I am now sure that Major Barnsdale is Officer 24. Following your tip, I also had a look at the Newspapers.com website earlier today, and, like you, found a multitude of hits for J.D. Barnsdale, who was clearly an outstanding sportsman. I didn't find the Notts. Magdala football team photo that you found, but found a number of articles about how a team of British footballers called The Pilgrims had tried to promote British Association football in the States. Two of three of the articles were illustrated with pictures of the team. This, from the Montreal Daily Star for 4 September1905 was the best picture of Barnsdale:

I don't think it adds anything to the photograph that you found from about the same time, but I was pleased to be able to find it.

I couldn't find any pictures of C.W.B. Hill, unfortunately, nor did I find any more of William Duckworth or A.V. Barwood. Is it possible to make any progress with these two from the photos that we have (the "B" Coy, Heywood Advertiser and 5th Reserve Battalion photos of Duckworth and just the "B" Coy photo of Barwood)?

On the question of the date of the Bedford group photograph, I believe that it was my GF who wrote on it that it was taken on 1 May 1915, and he is normally quite reliable about dates, not usually more than a day either side out, anyway.

 

[PRC]

Thanks @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy for sending over an unlabelled version of the May 1915 picture.

As it looks very much like we may have identified Barnsdale in that picture I've revisited the other images found of him. Unfortunately still can't do anything with the 1903 image in The Gentlewoman, but here's the rest of them cropped and in chronological order.

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

None of the images of William Duckworth found so far have been that great, but here's another side by side comparison. My inital impression was facially possibly Officer 19. However in your annotated version of the picture you have named him as Captain Bloy. And reviewing the other images, while the picture at Senlis later in 1915 shows Duckworth to be shorter than Barnsdale he is pretty much the same height as Hartington. Even within the limitations of the group photograph it's difficult to spot anyone else as short as Officer 19.

So on that basis I'll float the possibility of Officer 13  - but only as the least worst match. I'm not overly confident. Because of the low quality comparison images it's difficult to know if those are blemishes on the original or whether he too has a cleft\ dimpled chin.

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Finally with Barwood from the 1915 Senlis picture I was thinking possibly Officer 22 but you have that identified as Lieutenant Abbotts but with a question mark. Do you have some images of Abbotts for comparison to see if either Barwood or Abbotts makes a better candidate.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 20 February by PRC
Typo

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 20/02/2024 at 12:38, PRC said:

here's the rest of them cropped and in chronological order.

That's brilliant, PRC, and much appreciated.

On the subject of William Duckworth, the identification of Officer 19 is pretty rock solid, based on a photograph that accompanied his obituary.

However, your suggestion that Officer 13 is attractive, and one that had not occurred to me before. I had initially thought that Officer 13 would be Lieutenant Barwood, based on Barwood's height as demonstrated in the "B" Company photograph and his nickname "Little", but have had it pointed out to me that the facial features do not really fit, and that Officer 1 may facially be a better match for Barwood. I had initially had them the other way round, with Officer 1 being Duckworth.

However, you have made me look again, in particular, at the height of Officer 13, and opened my eyes to the fact that he may not in truth be all that small, but may look small merely because he is flanked by four exceptionally tall men. If I look along the line to the other side of the photograph, I see that he is in fact much the same height as Officers 16, 17,18, 20 and 21. Comparing the height of Officer 13 with the height of Officer 21 (positively identified as Captain Goldsmith) produces a very similar result as comparing the known images of Duckworth and Goldsmith in the photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve Battalion.

And, in fact, looking at the heights in that way also helps with something else, in that, if I had any doubt at all about the identification of Bloy, it was on the grounds of height;; clearly he is the smallest man in his row, but, if six of the others are average height and four exceptionally tall, he is only just a bit below average height, which confirms that height is not a reason for doubting what otherwise is an overwhelmingly positive identification of Officer 19 as Bloy.

I think that William'Duckworth's service record may survive reference WO339/76597, so that is something else for me to look at when I next visit the NA, though I don't suppose that it will help much with what he looked like.

Turning to Arthur Vincent Barwood, he's another man who has a surviving service record which I haven't yet looked at, reference WO374/70660.

I mentioned in the opening post that Barwood was a bandmaster in the 9th KLR before he became a temporary lieutenant in the 2/5th LF. I have since discovered that he must have come from a dynasty of bandmasters, as The Highland Furies - The Black Watch 1739 to 1899 by Victoria Schofield cites in its Select Bibliography of unpublished sources Diary on the Sudan and Nile Expeditions 1882-5 by Arthur Vincent Barwood, Bandsman, and the Letters to his Family 1882-5 of Spencer Vincent Barwood, Bandsman. I have also discovered (using the free access to Newspapers.com this weekend to which I was alerted by PRC) that an Arthur Vincent Barwood, Bandsman, performed with the 1st Royal Berkshire Military Band in Halifax in 1895 and 1896, was entertained at a farewell "smoker" (whatever that was - it doesn't sound at all healthy!) in Barbados on 29 October 1898 when the 1st Royal Berkshire Regiment was returning to England, and was again performing with the 1st Royal Berkshires at Woking Soldiers' Home in 1903. Then the Evening Express of 23 March 1938 reported that Captain A.V. Barwood was retiring from his position with the David Lewis Military Band of Liverpool owing to ill health, having had a distinguished musical career and held appointments with several Military bands. It was reported that Captain A.V Barwood had three sons who were bandmasters. From the Find a Grave website I see that an Arthur Vincent Barwood who is buried in West Derby Cemetery, Liverpool, was born in 1867 and died in 1938, so presumably the same man as retired owing to ill health in early 1938.

I suspect that none of these references to A.V. Barwood would have been to "my" A.V. Barwood, as a man born in 1867 would have been 48 in 1915, and I don't think that the man in the photograph of "B" Company is 48. It is far more likely that "my" A.V. Barwood was one of the bandmaster sons of the man who died in Liverpool in 1938. If so, it is unlikely that he would have been old enough to tour the Americas as a bandmaster in 1895-8 (so more likely that that too was "my" man's father). It is probable from the wording of the 1938 newspaper report about the three sons that "my" A.V. Barwood returned to being a bandmaster after WW1.

Anyway, leaving that to one side, could the man designated as A.V. Barwood in the "B" Company photograph be Officer 1? We don't really know anything about the height of that man, owing to his body being a brick wall (as my daughter put it when she first pointed out the photoshopping to me!).

Edited 10 April by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[brianmorris547]

No photographs yet but working on it. I have identified the Officers in the London Gazette and am searching the BNL via FMP. 

The LG 28881 28/08/1914 named two Officers, Edwin Samuel Frizelle and Charles Wesley Laughlin as Supernumerary 5 Bn LFs. Both these Officers are named in the WD of 1/5 LFs in Gallipoli. The death of Lt Frizelle was mentioned in Northern Ireland papers.

LG 28937 13/10/1914 p 8225 

Major George Alfred Kay - 1911 Census age 46 at Elton Grange, Bury. Pre war mentions in the Manchester Courier.

Major Henry Nicholas Milnes - 1911 Census age 35 at Seedfield, 257 Walmersley Rd, Bury. No Trace.

Captain John Davison Barnsdale - 1911 Census age 33 at Mapperley, Westgate, Hale, Cheshire. Very bad photograph in Gentlewomwan as above and a report in the Manchester Evening News 02/03/1914 that he was driving a vehicle which was in collision with a lurry (sic).

Lt QM John Joseph Pemberton Cummins - 1911 Census age 43 at 18 Greengate St, Stafford. Staffordshire Newsletter 1910 Treasurer of Stafford Canine Society. Yorkshire Post 21/06/1918 as Tank Corps (Lancs Fusiliers) promoted to Major.

I will end for now with one 2/Lt

Robert Spencer Ashworth - 1911 Census (as R S Ashworth) age 23, Solicitor, Dumers Lane, Radcliffe. Father J S Ashworth and elder brother J Ashworth. Fleetwood Express 20/06/1914 at Holy Trinity Church Blackpool South Shore marriage to Gladys Hardicker of Blackpool. He was the son of Mr J S Ashworth of Radcliffe and the Best Man was his brother J Ashworth. 

More from the LG 28937 tomorrow.

Brian

[PRC]

2 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

However, you have made me look again,

Well now it's my turn to look again.

I was so busy looking at facial features this time that I forgot to look down. Bowd, (23), Cummins, (25) and Hall, (26) are wearing medal ribbons of the correct size and in the correct place for the Great War era.  But Officer 22, the man you believe to possibly be Lt Abbots, seems to wearing an oversized medal ribbon, possibly even two, and attached on the skew. If they are medal ribbons then I don't recognise them, but definately not an area where I have any expertise. Doesn't appear to have anything in common with those worn by the other 3, so may well be a unique identifier.

I've taken a crop so you and others can compare and contrast the ribbon size, (if indeed that is what it is), and the cognescenti can possibly pitch in with what medals they might represent.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

It looks like 22 has a row of at least three medal ribbons, as four usually spans a full pockets width.  As an ex-ranker, Transport Officer, that’s not unusual and depends on his previous service.  I don’t think the ribbons are different in dimensions but the reflected light on some pale colouration has perhaps caused an optical illusion.

Edited 20 February by FROGSMILE

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

3 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

The LG 28881 28/08/1914 named two Officers, Edwin Samuel Frizelle and Charles Wesley Laughlin as Supernumerary 5 Bn LFs. Both these Officers are named in the WD of 1/5 LFs in Gallipoli. The death of Lt Frizelle was mentioned in Northern Ireland papers.

My GF mentions that these two were supernumerary in September 1914 and therefore could not proceed abroad with the 1/5th when the 1/5th LF went off to Egypt with the 42nd Division at that time, but he says they got orders to proceed to Egypt to join the 1/5th in January 1915. Their medal cards don't have dates of entry into a theatre of war on them, but they only have 15 stars, so that would fit with January 1915. My GF says that H Barnes (i.e. Lieutenant R.H. Barnes in the 5th Reserve newspaper photograph)  also received orders to proceed to Egypt with Laughlin and Frizelle, but I can't find an MIC card for him - maybe that is just my lack of expertise in searching.

10 hours ago, PRC said:

Finally with Barwood from the 1915 Senlis picture I was thinking possibly Officer 22 but you have that identified as Lieutenant Abbotts but with a question mark. Do you have some images of Abbotts for comparison to see if either Barwood or Abbotts makes a better candidate.

I meant to say earlier that I don't have any other photos of Lieutenant Abbotts unfortunately. I had not thought of Officer 22 for Barwood, partly because I had not expected him to be in the front row, but also again on height grounds, because Officer 22 does look to me like quite a tall man with an exceptionally long neck and broader shoulders in proportion to the width of his head than Barwood in the "B" Company photograph; I am not very good at these comparisons, though, and am quite happy to be corrected.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It looks like 22 has a row of at least three medals, as four usually spans a full pockets width.  As an ex-ranker, Transport Officer, that’s not unusual and depends on his previous service.  I don’t think the ribbons are different in dimensions but the reflected light on some pale colouration has perhaps caused an optical illusion.

Thanks @FROGSMILE - a likely explanation.

I see we are talking about Whateley Abbotts. His entry in the British Army Monthly Lists for May and June 1915 show he had seen previous campaigning service.

May be a co-incidence but there is a Trooper Whateley Abbotts, service number 1001, recorded on the Anglo-Boer War site serving with the 6th Company, 4th Battalion, Imperial Yeormanry and that said unit was linked to Staffordshire and raised in 1900. He is on their Queens South Africa Medal Roll. https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-yeomanry-by-company/2308-6th-company-4th-battalion

Whateleys’ Imperial Yeomanry Discharge papers have survived and can be found on FindMyPast and Genes Reunited.

Then aged 26 years and 7 months and a Barley Agent he enlisted in the Imperial Yeomanry at Lichfield on the 3rd January 1900. He was then serving in the Staffordshire Yeomanry. A widower, he was signing up for one years short service with the colours.

His birthplace was given as Trinity Parish, Burton on Trent, Staffordshire.

He was recorded as 5 feet nine and a half inches tall, with brown hair, hazel eyes and a fresh complexion.  He had no distinctive marks.

His next of kin was his father, Guy Abbotts, of Tutbury, Staffordshire. He had at the time of enlistment three children although as the first one was born in 1887 the maths doesn’t really add up They were:-
Annie Winifred born Carshalton, Surrey, 7th July 1887, baptised 17th August 1887 Carshalton.
Alfred Edward born Carshalton, Surrey, date of birth blank, baptised 20th September 1897.
John Frederick born Tooting, date of birth blank, baptised 20th September 1897.

He sailed for South Africa on the 26th January 1900. He saw action in South Africa at Dewtsdorp and Thaba Nchu. He received the South Africa Medal 1899-1902 with clasps for the Cape Colony and Orange Free State.

He returned to the UK later in the same year.

He was discharged at his own request from the 1st Provisional Battalion on the 5th April 1901 from further services in connection with the war in South Africa. His War Gratuity was paid as a Private.

However that would give him only one  medal – the Queens South Africa Medal, with this ribbon.

Image courtesy Wikipedia

A couple of contemporary newspaper reports that might be worthwhile checking out on the British Newspaper Archive.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Looks like possibly he may have gone bankrupt as a Commercial Traveller in 1910 which I suspect would have ruled him out as an Officer.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Presumably they let him as an officer in 1915 as he was discharged from his bankruptcy and we were at war.

However his MiC shows him landing in France in April 1915. And when he applied for his Great War service medals in June 1920 he gave an address of Pendyllyn Hall Sanatorium, Pensmaenmawr.
Medals however were to be sent to 129 Lenham Parade, Green Lane, Derby.

The death of a Whatley Abbotts of the right age was recorded in the Stratford on Avon Civil Registration District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1922.

Might be something in this newspaper report of his death.

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

The 1922 Probate Calendar records that a Whateley Abbotts, of Sherington House, Rother Street, Stratford on Avon , died on the 13th January 1922. Administration was granted at the Birmingham Court on the 27th March to Thomas Guy Abbotts, commercial traveller. His effects were valued at £26 19s 2d.

So what do the additional medals relate to? Probably one for his officer personal file. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C670182

Cheers,
Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 21/02/2024 at 00:46, PRC said:

I see we are talking about Whateley Abbotts. His entry in the British Army Monthly Lists for May and June 1915 show he had seen previous campaigning service.

That's brilliant, @PRC, I am very grateful to you for your help with this, and thank you, @FROGSMILE for your input on the medals.

As I understand it, the medal ribbons show that the man seated on our far left of the photograph had seen previous service, and therefore, especially given his clear status as a lieutenant, prove conclusively that he is Lieutenant Abbotts.

The name "Whateley Abbotts" is surely not a common name, and therefore all the information that PRC has so amazingly been able to ferret out is to my mind overwhelmingly likely to relate to this man, and fits with what we can see of him in the photograph as the dob of the man whom PRC has found,1874, would make him 40 at the time the photograph was taken, which I believe is consistent with his appearance. The birth of a daughter in 1887 is the one anomale.

From the thumbnail views of newspaper entries that PRC has been able to post, it looks as though possibly three Abbotts brothers fought in the Boer war; certainly one brother, T.G. Abbotts, did so, He, like Whateley, was a commercial traveller in civilian life, and became his administrator. Nice to see that, having been bankrupt between the wars, Whateley was able to leave an estate that was in credit to the tune of just under £27 when he died, aged 48, in 1922.

I see from one of the thumbnail newspaper extracts that Whateley Abbotts was invalided home from the Boer War in July 1900, but we don't know whether he was able to return, or whether that illness affected him for the rest of his life.

Before starting this thread I had looked to see what I could discover about Abbotts in the London Gazette, and found the following:

He was appointed 2nd Lieutenant and temporary Lieutenant with effect from the same date, 18 April 1915, gazetted 19 April 1915. Subsequently he was confirmed as a permanent Lieutenant in the gazette of 4 August 1917 wef 1 June 1916. Still as Lieutenant he was appointed to Corps and seconded to command a Prisoner of War Company on 17 May 1917, with (retrospectively) the position of Acting Captain while commanding a Company (the secondment to command the Prisoner of War company was gazetted on 23 August 1917, and the appointment to Corps as an Acting Captain was gazetted much later on 30 May 1918). Then on 24 June 1918, still a Lieutenant, he was seconded for service with the Labour Corps, and finally in the edition of 16 August 1919 it was stated "Lt W. Abbotts (actg. Capt. without pay and allces. Labour Corps) relinquishes his commission on account of ill-health contracted on active service, 17 Aug. 1919, and is granted the rank of Capt." 

His service record is on my list of things to look at when I next visit Kew!

Does anyone have any views about the identification of Lieutenant Barwood?

I am adding Abbotts' name to the title to this thread, and, as the thread is now getting a little unwieldy, I intend to start a new thread, hopefully later today with a new photograph inserting the names as established in this thread, and seeking to identify the remaining officers, namely "C" Company (apart from Malcolm Young who I think I have aready identified), E.R. Ramsden, H. Waterhouse, E.C. Simon and J.F. Harker,

Thank you everyone, @johnmelling1979, @brianmorris547 , @FROGSMILE, and, of course, @PRC for your contributions to this thread so far. 

Edited 10 April by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[PRC]

3 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Does anyone have any views about the identification of Lieutenant Barwood?

If we take officer 22 out of the mix then penduluum swings back towards officer 1 - but for me only on the basis of "least worst" match.

Unfortunately as he has been early "photoshopped" in we can't gauge how tall he is in relation to anyone else.

As a simple comparison of whether it's a possible match see:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[brianmorris547]

Three more 2/Lts from LG 28937.

Richard Henry Barnes - 1911 Census age 22 at 15 Sunny Bower St, Tottington, Bury - No Trace

Lawrence Henry Bloy - 1911 Census age 18 at Orchard House, 650 Atherton Rd, Hindley Green - Wigan Observer 25/06/1916 Distinction in Mathematics Hindley and Abram Grammar School. Manchester Courier 27/06/1913 Manchester University Degrees.

William Duckworth - I sent the Photo and Biography from the Heywood Advertiser 18/08/1916, which you refer to above, by e mail. Manchester Evening Chronicle 29/01/1916 reported on his wedding. Best Man Lt Kirkman 2/5 recently invalided home from France. Guard of Honour of wounded soldiers from 2/5 led by CSM Marshall. Rochdale Observer 18/08/1916 reported that he was the elder son of Walter Duckworth, Brooklands, Heywood.

EDIT I have been asked by @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy to show the age of William Duckworth on the 1911 Census. He was age 17, Commercial Clerk, living with father Walter at The Brooklands, Heywood.

Brian

Edited 18 March by brianmorris547
additional info

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

If we take officer 22 out of the mix then penduluum swings back towards officer 1 - but for me only on the basis of "least worst" match.

Unfortunately as he has been early "photoshopped" in we can't gauge how tall he is in relation to anyone else.

As a simple comparison of whether it's a possible match see:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Similar jawline and ears Peter, but I can’t get the eye sockets and nose to match.

[PRC]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Similar jawline and ears Peter, but I can’t get the eye sockets and nose to match.

I was having similar thoughts myself, but was unsure of how much allowance to make for smoking a pipe and holding it in place simply with the jaw and tongue rather than combined with hand. Thinking back as a small child it always seemed for the grandparent generation that it involved a great deal of raised cheeks and scrunched eyes as they puffed away

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

I was having similar thoughts myself, but was unsure of how much allowance to make for smoking a pipe and holding it in place simply with the jaw and tongue rather than combined with hand. Thinking back as a small child it always seemed for the grandparent generation that it involved a great deal of raised cheeks and scrunched eyes as they puffed away

Cheers,
Peter

I know what you mean and that’s a good point.  The Popeye look.  I agree that it would / might definitely affect expression around the mouth and jaw, but less so around the eyes I think and the latter seem more different than I can reasonably explain away.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

If we take officer 22 out of the mix

Peter, it sounds as though you still think that Officer 22 is the closer to Barwood. Looking at the "B" Company photograph taken in Senlis again, can I see medal ribbons on Barwood's pocket there? Or am I imagining that? If there are medal ribbons, then presumably Barwood too would have seen prior service in the Boer War? If so, it might begin to look more likely that the A.V. Barwood of the 2/5th LF might be the 48 year old that I wrote about in my post of yesterday. But is it conceivable that the man in the "B" Company photo was 48? And is it possible that Officer 22 is as small as Barwood looks in the "B" Company photograph? And finally, if Whateley Abbotts is not Officer 22, then what number might he be instead, bearing in mind that he was aged 40, 5 ft 9 1/2 in tall, and presumably would have had at least one medal ribbon from the Boer War?

Does further progress with regard to these two have to wait till I have looked at the service records at the NA, which presumably would at least tell me Barwood's age and whether he had seen prior service in the Boer War?

I will start the new thread, showing Lieutenant Abbotts as Officer 22 and Lieutenant Barwood as Officer 1 for now, but with question marks.

5 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Three more 2/Lts from LG 28937.

Richard Henry Barnes - 1911 Census age 22 at 15 Sunny Bower St, Tottington, Bury - No Trace

Lawrence Henry Bloy - 1911 Census age 18 at Orchard House, 650 Atherton Rd, Hindley Green - Wigan Observer 25/06/1916 Distinction in Mathematics Hindley and Abram Grammar School. Manchester Courier 27/06/1913 Manchester University Degrees.

William Duckworth - I sent the Photo and Biography from the Heywood Advertiser 18/08/1916, which you refer to above, by e mail. Manchester Evening Chronicle 29/01/1916 reported on his wedding. Best Man Lt Kirkman 2/5 recently invalided home from France. Guard of Honour of wounded soldiers from 2/5 led by CSM Marshall. Rochdale Observer 18/08/1916 reported that he was the elder son of Walter Duckworth, Brooklands, Heywood.

Thank you very much for this additional information, Brian.

Looking back at my opening post, I realise that I omitted to give you credit for drawing my attention both to the article regarding William Duckworth's wounding and the accompanying photograph and the photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve Battalion of the LF taken in December 1914, but I now hasten to do that.

Regarding Richard Henry Barnes, I said earlier that I couldn't find his MIC, but I have now found it, reference WO372/2/3338. Curiously, he is shown as being entitled to the 15 star, and someone has written on the card "In France May 15". Is he the 30th man in the group photograph taken in Bedford, the man whom my GF did not name? If so, it is odd that my GF does not mention him at all once they get to France, not even once, whereas he talks about all the other officers, even Packman, who was only with the battalion in France for a week or less before returning to England. I can't see a surviving service record for R.H. Barnes, but will return to him in my new thread. Apart from his appointment as 2nd Lieutenant in LG 28937 in October 1914 the only reference that I have so far been able to find in the LG is in the supplement published on 29 October 1917, which states:

The undermentioned 2nd Lts, (now Capts.) to be Lts. 1st July 1917

R.H. Barnes

J.B. Packman

This suggests that at some stage R.H. Barnes was appointed Lieutenant, then Captain, but I can't at the moment find this in the LG

Regarding Kirkman, my GF mentions that he and CSM Marshall returned to England following an attack on the front line trench manned by the 2/5th LF at Laventie on 18 July 1915. My GF records that CSM Marshall was "badly crushed from being buried". The Battalion WD for 21 July 1915 records that Kirkman went to hospital that day, and that he was invalided to England on 11 August 1915. There is no further reference to him in either my GF's memoir or the Battalion WD, save that my GF saw him at Colchester in January 1917 when my Gf was on Home Service for a time based at Ripon, recovering from being wounded in September 1916. Presumably Kirkman was then in the 3/5th LF, as according to the LLT they were based in Colchester from March 1916 to March 1917.

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Peter, it sounds as though you still think that Officer 22 is the closer to Barwood. Looking at the "B" Company photograph taken in Senlis again, can I see medal ribbons on Barwood's pocket there?

Nothing in Barwoods entry in the British Army Monthly List entries for May and June 1915 to suggest previous campaign service. Yet the officer identified as Barwood in the September 1915 picture at Senslis does indeed appear to be wearing medal ribbons.

My hesitation over Abbott as Officer 22 is that there appears to be three ribbons on that officers chest, and nothing as yet to suggest Abbot was entitled to more than one.  And unless there is excessive glare \ a blemish on the original picture \ an issue with the photo processing method used, even the one ribbon Abbott would have worn would seem darker than what is on display. As Abbott seems to have been a Staffordshire Yeomanry trooper before serving in the ranks with the Imperial Yeomanry, (and by then he was in his mid-twenties), was bankrupt by 1910 and we don't as yet know when he was discharged from that bankruptcy, it difficult to envisage where the other medals are going to come from. At what stage of his life pre-war was he going to have served and earned them, whether in the ranks or as an officer?

I suspect some of the other front row officers are wearing the Queens South Africa medal, which if the light colouring of the ribbons on Abbott was a consequence of the film processing technique then you would expect it to have the same impact on them.

Of course if he was still serving with the Staffordshire Yeomanry post Boer War he may have been one of those nominated for the coronation medals or something similar. I believe the rolls for those may be available on the National Archive site. However given the low numbers issued it's a bit clutching at straws,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Edward_VII_Coronation_Medal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Coronation_Medal

So unfortunately it may be a question of checking any surviving officer file for Abbott and Barwood to resolve that connundrum.

But having taken officer 22 out of contention, the other 29 possibles doesn't have stand-out candidate for a match to the man noted as Barwood in the Senlis picture as far as I'm concerned.

So one other possibility to thrown into the ring - is it possible that the Senlis picture has been mis-identified and it is Abbott not Barwood at the left hand end?

Compare the medal ribbons and then look at the faces - it's probably worth keeping an open mind.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

Nothing in Barwoods entry in the British Army Monthly List entries for May and June 1915 to suggest previous campaign service. Yet the officer identified as Barwood in the September 1915 picture at Senslis does indeed appear to be wearing medal ribbons.

My hesitation over Abbott as Officer 22 is that there appears to be three ribbons on that officers chest, and nothing as yet to suggest Abbot was entitled to more than one.  And unless there is excessive glare \ a blemish on the original picture \ an issue with the photo processing method used, even the one ribbon Abbott would have worn would seem darker than what is on display. As Abbott seems to have been a Staffordshire Yeomanry trooper before serving in the ranks with the Imperial Yeomanry, (and by then he was in his mid-twenties), was bankrupt by 1910 and we don't as yet know when he was discharged from that bankruptcy, it difficult to envisage where the other medals are going to come from. At what stage of his life pre-war was he going to have served and earned them, whether in the ranks or as an officer?

I suspect some of the other front row officers are wearing the Queens South Africa medal, which if the light colouring of the ribbons on Abbott was a consequence of the film processing technique then you would expect it to have the same impact on them.

Of course if he was still serving with the Staffordshire Yeomanry post Boer War he may have been one of those nominated for the coronation medals or something similar. I believe the rolls for those may be available on the National Archive site. However given the low numbers issued it's a bit clutching at straws,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Edward_VII_Coronation_Medal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Coronation_Medal

So unfortunately it may be a question of checking any surviving officer file for Abbott and Barwood to resolve that connundrum.

But having taken officer 22 out of contention, the other 29 possibles doesn't have stand-out candidate for a match to the man noted as Barwood in the Senlis picture as far as I'm concerned.

So one other possibility to thrown into the ring - is it possible that the Senlis picture has been mis-identified and it is Abbott not Barwood at the left hand end?

Compare the medal ribbons and then look at the faces - it's probably worth keeping an open mind.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

I think you’re right that these two images show the same officer.  The medal ribbons, eye sockets, nose, chin and creases running downwards either side of the nose to the sides of the mouth all match.  Even the shirt collar wings beneath his SD jacket sit identically.  The previous identity suggested was largely my error, as apart from some facial resemblance, I’d believed that the Transport Officer would most likely sit adjacent to the quartermaster because that is whom he worked alongside and spent most time with at the battalion transport lines.  

Edited 22 February by FROGSMILE

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

My goodness, now you put them side by side I see exactly what you mean! Clearly your answer to my question as to whether Officer 22 could be as small as the man labelled Barwood in the Senlis photo must be yes, or you would not have contemplated this identification.

As for your question as to whether the man in the Senlis photo could be wrongly labelled as Barwood, but is in fact Abbotts, I think that far less likely than that the photographer (or someone) decided to place Barwood seated in the front row in the Bedford photograph. The reasons why I think the mis-labelling suggestion (though I agree the question had to be asked) are:

• my GF wrote in his memoir that "While at Senlis this tour Col Shirley took a photograph of each Company Officer – also one of the battalion HQ Officers (see photographs)", and the photograph is pasted in only a few pages away from this text, which suggests that it is one of the phitigraphs referred to; although not absolutely conclusive, the wording tends to indicate that the HQ officers were photographed separately, not mixed in with the Company officers, and sure enough my GF also pasted in elsewhere one or two photographs of members of HQ separately (these have helped me with the identifications I was able to do before I started this thread - there is not one of Abbotts, unfortunately);
• the photograph is clearly labelled "X" Coy (aka "B" Coy"), and "Senlis", which again tends to confirm that it is one of the photographs referred to in the last bullet point, and that the officers were all in the same company and did not include any HQ officers;
• my GF knew the officers of the 2/5th very well, and has either written the labelling of the photo himself, or stuck it into his memoir without correction, so it is highly unlikely that Barwood is wrongly labelled

It may be that Barwood's height made it more sensible for him to be in the front row of the photograph, and perhaps also, given his medals, it was thought that a certain amount of respect should be accorded to him, so that he would not be out of place in the front row. 

Having read about the coronation medals, is it conceivable that, as a former bandmaster, A.V. Barwood might have earned one or both of these by being involved in the coronation parades?

Meanwhile, I have also had a look for Barwood's MIC, and, courtesy of NA, I have uploaded a copy of  WO372-2-28743

It will be seen that this sheet includes two A.V. Barwoods, top right and bottom left. The latter was a private in the 1st Royal Berks and then in the Corps of Hussars, and earned the 14 star, having entered a theatre of war on 13 August 1914, so all that fits with the man who I referred to in my earlier post who was 48 in 1915, while top right was officer in the 5th Lancashire Fusiliers who entered France in May 1915, so definitely the man in the Bedford photograph. Given that there are two separate MICs and nothing to link them, do these cards definitely realate to different men. Is it at all possible that Officer 22, if Barwood, was 48?

Of course, if Officer 22 is Barwood, that leaves us looking for a Lieutenant aged 40 with one medal ribbon from the Boer War to be Abbotts, the Transport Officer. I can't immediately see anyone who obviously fits that description. Any suggestions?

Edited 22 February by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Having read about the coronation medals, is it conceivable that, as a former bandmaster, A.V. Barwood might have earned one or both of these by being involved in the coronation parades?

I think that is very likely indeed, Tricia.

[brianmorris547]

More info from names in LG 28937

Mansfield Priestly Evans - 1911 Census age 19 at West Royd 184 Manchester Rd, Bury - possible mention in Birmingham Daily Post 16/11/1914 Degrees conferred BA Lincoln College, Oxford (The LG is dated 13/10/1914 so this might not be the same man).

George Hartley Goldsmith - 1911 Census Parental at Odstone, Arthog Rd, Hale, Cheshire. Henry Goldsmith, age 55, Architect.

06/10/1911 North Wales Weekly News. Works on new sea outlet at Rhos on sea designed by Henry and George Hartley Goldsmith, Architects of Manchester.

13/11/1911 North Wales Weekly News. Application to build two houses at Rhos on Sea

26/12/1913 North Wales Weekly News. List of visitors to Oakwood Park Hotel includes Mr G Hartley Goldsmith, Manchester.

01/10/1914 North Wales Weekly News. Rhos on Sea Golf Club Mr K Waterhouse and Mr J (sic) Hartley Goldsmith have obtained Commissions in 5 LFs and are now undergoing training for the front.

29/07/1915 North Wales Weekly News. Colwyn Bay ROH - G Hartley Goldsmith, Odstone, Rhos 2/5 LFs

Finally 31/05/1917 North Wales Weekly News. Captain G Hartley Goldsmith RE on leave from the Somme. He has been Mentioned in Despatches. (Possible transfer to the Royal Engineers because of his work).

The next two names in the LG are George Hall and Norman Hall so I will look at Geoffrey Clegg Hutchinson tomorrow.

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

That's interesting background on the various men you have mentioned, Brian. I don't see why the Evans on whom the degree was conferred on 16/11/1914 shouldn't be "our" Mansfield Priestley Evans, as presumably then, as now, students would do the exams leadin to their degree and learn that they had passed at an earlier date than the degrees were actually conferred at a degree ceremony, and Evans might have been given leave of absence to attend the ceremony.

3 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Finally 31/05/1917 North Wales Weekly News. Captain G Hartley Goldsmith RE on leave from the Somme. He has been Mentioned in Despatches. (Possible transfer to the Royal Engineers because of his work).

My GF says in his diary entry for 10 September 1915 "Goldsmith left the Battalion and was attached to the District Office of the RE of the Divisional HQ at Senlis".

[PRC]

6 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Of course, if Officer 22 is Barwood, that leaves us looking for a Lieutenant aged 40 with one medal ribbon from the Boer War to be Abbotts, the Transport Officer. I can't immediately see anyone who obviously fits that description. Any suggestions?

Speculation but if the photograph was taken on the 1st May 1915 and I believe you said the Battalion went over to France on the 3rd May 1915, wouldn't the Transport Officer be rather busy? Could he even perhaps have set off with the advance party to the departure port? Does the Battalion War Diary cover this period and give details?

Following that line of thought could he then be one of the two officers "photoshopped" into the Bedford picture. While you can just about see the area of chest of Officer 10 where you might expect to see a medal ribbon, the same area is totally obscured on Officer 1 as it has been cropped to fit around the hat of the officer in front.

And while if he had been present you might have found him on the front row next to the Quartermaster, if he had to be "photoshopped" in then it was more of a question of where there was space rather than a reflection of the pecking order.

On a separate but related line of thought - while Barnsdale \ Officer 24 still shows the rank of Captain he most likely already knew he'd got the nod to be the junior Major in the Battalion, so that front row quintet of Quartermaster - Junior Major - Adjutant - Commanding Officer - Senior Major would appear to put the right people in the right hierarchical positions.

Cheers,
Peter