Help identifying officers in group photo of 2/5th Lancs Fus in Bedford, 1/5/1915, "B" Coy, Hill, Abbotts, H. Waterhouse

[brianmorris547]

Peter

The photographs in the Hampshire Advertiser are not of the Oxford and Cambridge Athletics Team. There is only a brief report in col 2 that the team were returning from New York on the White Star Liner Adriatic.

I will have a further search of the BNA for the athletics team. 

Brian

[PRC]

4 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

The photographs in the Hampshire Advertiser are not of the Oxford and Cambridge Athletics Team. There is only a brief report in col 2 that the team were returning from New York on the White Star Liner Adriatic.

Thank you for checking - normally even with only the thumbnail image I can work out where the text is highlighted, but that one eluded me.

Will put my thinking cap on - lots of potential avenues to explore.

Cheers,
Peter

[brianmorris547]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Thank you for checking - normally even with only the thumbnail image I can work out where the text is highlighted, but that one eluded me.

Will put my thinking cap on - lots of potential avenues to explore.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter/Tricia

The Todmorden and District News of 30/08/1929 reported on his wedding at Lytham to Miss Betty Crabtree of Fairhaven (fly Todmorden) and lists all the guests and what presents they gave. I did not see any other Lancs Fusiliers names who he may have served with but I will check again. I will also check the Tatler for Society Weddings. At some point I will get to Chorley Library.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

LG 29085 01/03/1915 - 2/Lt 5 LFs

Henry Hartley Noton - 1911 Census age 14 of 6 Palatine Ave, Withington, Manchester.

Liverpool Daily Post 03/06/1916. MC in a list of Honours. 

Sheffield Daily Telegraph 04/11/1919. Family Notices - Weddings. By Licence in Sheffield on 11/07/1919 Captain Henry Hartley Noton MC 5 LFs to Myrtle Sylvia Bryan Donkin.

Edited 3 March by brianmorris547

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, Frogsmile, Brian and Peter for your continuing help with this project.

Pity that there was no photograph of the Athletics team in the Hampshire Advertiser. I will approach the schools to see whether they have photographs, though I do not hold out much hope that anyone will have time to look into this for me unless I am lucky enough to make contact with a WW1 enthusiast.

I shall alter the heading to this thread and its sister thread slightly to include Hugh Waterhouse in this thread rather than the other one.

On the question of moustaches, the 5^th Reserve group photograph was taken in December 1914, and the Bedford group photograph was taken on 1 May 1915, so both too early for the regulation regarding moustaches to have altered to accommodate the wearing of gas masks.

Having said that, there are a number of officers on the Bedford photo who are definitely clean-shaven, as follows:

Officer no.	Name, if identified	Approximate age on 1 May 1915 (date of photograph)
2	Norman Hall	23
4	Norman Kemp	20
5	Malcolm Young	22
6
7
9	John Hartington	18
10	Claude Hill?	28
11	Joe Hedley	34
14	Mansfield Priestley-Evans?	23
15	Hugh Waterhouse?	23
16
17
19	Lawrence Bloy	22
29	Geoffrey Hutchinson	22

As it happens the four men in the above table against whom no name is entered, are the only four men in the entire photograph for whom we have no name, even tentatively. The four remaining men who have not been assigned a position in the photograph, even tentatively are:

Name	Approximate age on 1 May 1915 (date of photograph)
John Packman	18
Baron Rothband	28
Frederick Harker	?
Newton Thompson?	29

Google tells me that age of development of facial hair on men can sometimes be as late as 30, so all of these men are potentially in the age range when they might not yet be able to grow a moustache apart from Joe Hedley. I am wondering whether the regulation regarding not shaving the upper lip might not apply, at least so strictly, in Territorial units? Or was Joe Hedley breaking the rules in this regard (mostly he doesn’t come across as a rebel, and was a schoolmaster in civilian life)?

If generally men who could grow a moustache would have been expected to do so as a matter of course as at the date of the Bedford photo, that might be a further aid towards identification, for example, being another reason why, if Abbotts and Hill are the photo-shopped men, Abbotts is more probably the one on our left, and Hill the one on our right.

That brings me back to the Southport group photo of the 5^th Reserve Battalion officers.

On reflection, I am not so sure that men who I previously thought had moustaches in that photo did in fact do so. If you look at the photo of my GF 2^nd from our left in the back row, if I didn’t know better I might well have thought that that dark line along his mouth was a moustache, but it definitely was not. I am wondering whether the same might apply to others who I have previously thought sported moustaches in that photograph, e.g. Evans, Thompson and Hutchinson?

On the subject of Thompson, @FROGSMILE, do you think my suggestion that Thompson would have stayed in Bedford until the battalion was on the point of departure or had departed before returning to Bury if his job was to “collect surplus stores”, either from your knowledge of what was done in WW1 or more recent army practice?

What my GF actually says is:

Thompson came down from Bury to collect surplus stores. Pity George [his brother] couldn’t come!

Although the Battalion had new clothes and kit before leaving Southport, all this was changed for precisely similar stuff within a week. Simply because we had come into another Command. Army Red tape. Imagine the expense and unnecessary labour entailed by such methods.

First there is the mention that he wished it was his brother. I suppose that, even if Thompson’s visit was a flying visit, he might still have said this, but if it was to be a 6 or 7 day visit that would have been something even more worth mentioning. But would a man “hang around” so long for collecting kit?

Then there is the reference to the kit being changed within a week because they had come under a new command. This presumably refers to them joining the 51^st Highland Division, which the LLT says happened on 18 April 1915. So, a week later, on 25 April 1915, (arguing against myself regarding whether Thompson might still have been in Bedford on 1 May 1915) the new kit had already been issued according to my GF, meaning the old kit would by that date (the date of Thompson’s arrival) already have been ready for collection.

Edited 10 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To correct mistaken reference to Barwood instead of Abbotts

[FROGSMILE]

I think it’s quite conceivable that Thomson would remain until the battalion’s departure yes.  As you will understand battalions are live entities with circumstances changing constantly and they wouldn’t really know what was surplus until they were ready to depart and had checked that everything needed was in possession.  Even then there was temptation to take spares - just in case - but good battalions with experience would usually restrain themselves because there was always a friction between what you’d like to have and what can be comfortably and efficiently carried.

As regards the shaving of facial hair you’ve made an excellent point that had slipped my mind.  The regulations I’d quoted were for the Regular Forces.  The Territorials, just as the Volunteer Force before them, had their own discrete regulations that recognised their status as civilians until embodied, and attempting to interfere with the hairstyles of men engaged in myriad professions and trades was impractical and unconscionable in equal measure.  The TF battalions also took some pride in their differences from the regulars.  Ergo I don’t think that the shaving regulations of the KRs applied to them, or if they did upon mobilisation, they were not being observed with any serious intent.

NB.  I’ve consulted within “Regulation’s for the Territorial Force and for County Associations 1908”, and although there’s plenty of detail regarding “clothing” and “uniform”, there’s nothing that I can find about shaving.

Edited 3 March by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 02/03/2024 at 14:18, brianmorris547 said:

I have noticed post war articles about a Hugh Waterhouse being a school master in Lytham, but this article from the Lancashire Daily Post 14/07/1933 confirms it, and a photograph to go with it.

I will find details of the schools so that @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy can make some enquiries. EDIT The article names the school at Lytham. 

Image BNL via FMP.

Brian

The nugget in the Lancashire Daily Post of the 14^th July 1933 discovered by @brianmorris547 has turned out to be the veritable goldmine of rabbit holes down which I have all too readily disappeared

Putting it into some sort of chronological order.

He was 41 when the article was written so born c1892.

The final part of his school education was at Manchester Grammar School “where he distinguished himself both scholastically and on the sports field, establishing three school athletic records and being Victor Ludorum in 1909.”

The School has two Archivists – contact details can be found here https://www.mgs.org/2012/accessing-the-mgs-archives#

Some documents are available on line, including the School Magazie, the Ulula. https://www.mgs-life.co.uk/

From the May 1909 edition for example there is this on page 69.

Image courtesy the Manchester Grammar School Archive. https://www.mgs-life.co.uk/Documents/Ulula/1909_05.pdf

That source is light on pictures in the few 1909 editions I looked at, but there are some so could be worthwhile perservering through the Great War and beyond as there is regular reporting on the doings of Old Mancunians.

He had teaching experience at Retford Grammar School from 1911 to 1914.

There are some sources on line, but not a full blown archive as far as I could tell. However I came across a post by forum member @SamCurt and looks like they had access to contemporary school magazine – I’m hoping that shout out gains their attention and that they still have that access.

Hugh Waterhouse started at St. John’s Cambridge in 1914 but his studies were interrupted by the war.

The War List of the University of Cambridge 1914-18 shows him starting his studies at St. John’s College in 1914. G. Waterhouse on the line above had also come from Manchester Grammar School and may be related. https://archive.org/details/warlistofunivers00careuoft/page/344/mode/2up?q=Waterhouse

The College Archive promise much but seem difficult to access. https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/archives

He returned to his studies at Cambridge after the war although he may simply have purchased his degree, dispensation having been given for war service. The fact that he was a member of the Cambridge University Athletic Club does tend to imply he did study – but I’ll come back to that.

We know Hugh went to America in 1921 with the Oxford and Cambridge athletic team on their annual tour. From the newspaper coverage it looks like they left late June and returned early August 1921.

Pictures of the Cambridge Athletic Team from this period should be likely to include him – unfortunately the only one I could find online was low resolution, (the owner was selling it for silly money) and the only person named is the Captain, Harold Abrahams. From what little I can make out I’m not sure Hugh is present. https://www.sportspages.com/product/cambridge_university_athletics_club_c1921_cabinet_card_6460

So the question is then did he study for his degree or purchase it? The newspaper article says he taught at Rugby School after graduating, and then in September 1921 became French Master at King Edward VII School, Lytham. But as we’ve seen above he only returned from his trip to America in August 1921. If he was attending Cambridge University prior to the summer break, then when did he fit in teaching at Rugby School, after graduating. And if he as teaching at Rugby School prior to the summer break then when did he fit in a degree course at Cambridge. (And did the British team field a ringer!)

The only reason for labouring the point is that the less time he actually spent at the college, then the less likely there will be any photographic evidence in the College and University archives.

There may be something in the Cambridge University Athletic Club records, but I don’t think any of them are online. https://archivesearch.lib.cam.ac.uk/repositories/2/archival_objects/11245

From September 1921 to July 1933 he taught at King Edward VII School, Lytham.

Page 87 of the "King Edward VII School, Lytham: the school by the sea", by Michael Boddy provides this insight into his teaching methods.

“another big man who was on the teaching staff around this time was Hugh Waterhouse, the senior French master. He was a huge man of great strength, who could — and did, occasionally — easily lift a boy by the scruff of his neck with one hand. Doubtless this part of Mr Waterhouse’s armoury arose from the fact that he was a county-standard shot-putter in his spare time, having been a Cambridge “blue” at this particular sport. Hugh Waterhouse taught at KES from 1921-33, when he left to become Headmaster of Chorley Grammar School.” https://archive.org/details/isbn_9781904244394/page/86/mode/2up?q=%22Hugh+Waterhouse%22

"1916 and beyond the Pale" by Dorothy Dunlop also came up while I was looking for more on his time at Lytham – but actually I believe has a picture of him on his wedding day. This seems to be a piece on the family and confirms G.Waterhouse, (Gilbert), was his brother. The author was a descendant of Gilbert. The associated text on page 163 reads:-

“Hugh Waterhouse M.C. survived the war and was equally blessed. He returned to his studies and graduated from St. John’s College, Cambridge, as his brother had done, and found happiness in his teaching career and his marriage to Betty Crabtree in Lytham-St. Annes.

Image courtesy: https://archive.org/details/1916beyondpale0000dunl/page/162/mode/2up?q=%22Hugh%22

You may want to look at the whole book – it includes a few references to Hugh. For example on page 115 :-

Image sourced https://archive.org/details/1916beyondpale0000dunl/page/114/mode/2up?q=%22Hugh%22

According the General Registrars Office index of marriages in England & Wales Hugh Waterhouse married Betty E. Crabtree in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1929.

From July 1933 onwards Hugh was headmaster at Chorley High School.

If I understand the internet correctly, Chorley Grammar School no longer exists, having been swallowed up into another educational establishment. Its’ records were passed on to the Lancashire County Archive and a number of pictures, many of them whole years panoramas of students and staff, have been made available.

I will need to start out of chronological order as I believe only in one of them is Hugh, (as H. Waterhouse), specifically identified. I’ve included whole pictures where appropriate to give an impression of his height.

This picture was taken at Chorley Grammar School Sports Day 1938, Victory Park, Duke Street, Chorley.

Image courtesy https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?i=221557&WINID=1709660106763&fullPage=1

The County Archive have catalogued those present as “Left to Right: T G Perry, Mrs Gillett (Alderman), T Hamer (Councillor), H Waterhouse, T Heaton (Councillor), E Warburton (Councillor), Ralph Gent (Mayor), F W Henderson. Front: Peter Aspinall, Mary Mitchell”

But as the attached clipping make clear, H. Waterhouse was the headmaster of Chorley Grammar School.

And once we have a feel for how Hugh looked during this period then knowing he is stated to be present in this picture, taken at Chorley Grammar School Sports Day 1939, Victory Park, Duke Street, Chorley, means there can only be one candidate.

Image courtesy: https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?key=SnsiUCI6eyJpdGVtaWQiOjIyMTU1NywicGVyY2VudFRlcm1zVG9NYXRjaCI6IjAuNiIsIm1heFF1ZXJ5VGVybXMiOiIyMCIsIm1pbkRvY0ZyZXEiOiIxIiwibWluVGVybUZyZXEiOiIxIn0sIkYiOiJleUp6YnlJNk0zMCJ9&WINID=1709660106763&fullPage=1#4857PFobFasAAAGOD6vfmw/221556

Turning to those whole school pictures, the Lancashire County Archive believe there is one possibly from 1935, and to my eye there is a likely candidate for Hugh on the right hand edge of the teaching staff. Given normal group dynamics that would seem an odd place for him to be sat. But a further trawl through those images turns up that because of the scanning process most of these panoramic shots have been split into two or even three segments. So the candidate for Hugh is pretty much sitting in the centre of the overall picture. (Second row from the front, second from the right).

Chorley Grammar School pupils 1935?, Union Street, Chorley sourced courtesy Red Rose Collection https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?i=222434&WINID=1709660389715&fullPage=1

If it is him then he seems to have undergone a few changes by the time of the 1937 picture.

Chorley Grammar School pupils 1937, Union Street, Chorley sourced Red Rose Collection https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?key=SnsiUCI6eyJpdGVtaWQiOjIyMTQ5NCwicGVyY2VudFRlcm1zVG9NYXRjaCI6IjAuNiIsIm1heFF1ZXJ5VGVybXMiOiIyMCIsIm1pbkRvY0ZyZXEiOiIxIiwibWluVGVybUZyZXEiOiIxIn0sIkYiOiJleUp6YnlJNk0zMCJ9&pg=40&WINID=1709679840350&fullPage=1#4857PFobFasAAAGOD6vfmw/221493

I believe he is may still be present in the July 1947 picture.

Image courtesy The Red Rose Collection. https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?key=SnsiUCI6eyJpdGVtaWQiOjIyMTQ4NywicGVyY2VudFRlcm1zVG9NYXRjaCI6IjAuNiIsIm1heFF1ZXJ5VGVybXMiOiIyMCIsIm1pbkRvY0ZyZXEiOiIxIiwibWluVGVybUZyZXEiOiIxIn0sIkYiOiJleUp6YnlJNk0zMCJ9&pg=43&WINID=1709680163872&fullPage=1#4857PFobFasAAAGOD6vfmw/221486

And is that him in the October 1950 picture?

Image courtesy The Red Rose Collection. https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?key=SnsiUCI6eyJpdGVtaWQiOjIyMTQ4NywicGVyY2VudFRlcm1zVG9NYXRjaCI6IjAuNiIsIm1heFF1ZXJ5VGVybXMiOiIyMCIsIm1pbkRvY0ZyZXEiOiIxIiwibWluVGVybUZyZXEiOiIxIn0sIkYiOiJleUp6YnlJNk0zMCJ9&pg=47&WINID=1709680163872&fullPage=1#4857PFobFasAAAGOD6vfmw/221482

But by 1952 I’m not sure he is present. https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?key=SnsiUCI6eyJpdGVtaWQiOjIyMTQ4NywicGVyY2VudFRlcm1zVG9NYXRjaCI6IjAuNiIsIm1heFF1ZXJ5VGVybXMiOiIyMCIsIm1pbkRvY0ZyZXEiOiIxIiwibWluVGVybUZyZXEiOiIxIn0sIkYiOiJleUp6YnlJNk0zMCJ9&pg=51&WINID=1709680163872&fullPage=1#4857PFobFasAAAGOD6vfmw/221478

So pulling as many of those as possible into a side by side comparison gives:

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

I need to take a break before looking at trying to identify Hugh in the May 1915 picture – my brain is all imaged out

Cheers,
Peter

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

The nugget in the Lancashire Daily Post of the 14^th July 1933 discovered by @brianmorris547 has turned out to be the veritable goldmine of rabbit holes down which I have all too readily disappeared

Well, I think, @PRC , that you have practically mapped out the whole burrow of these many rabbits! I am quite blown away, and have not yet fully assimilated all the information that you have uncovered.

I am replying very briefly even though I haven't absorbed all the contents of your post, mainly to say thank you, and also (not to criticise, but to save you finding one of the images in your final panel bafflingly inconsistent) to say that the photo on the the far left of your line of photographs, which comes from the 1914 photograph of the officers of the 5th Reserve Battalion, is in fact Lieutenant Kenneth Waterhouse, not Hugh Waterhouse - the fact that there were two Waterhouses being the reason why, as mentioned above, I was beguiled into thinking that my GF had told us that K. Waterhouse was good at French rather than H. Waterhouse!

We do also have the 1933 photograph from the Lancashire Daily Post article found by @brianmorris547 , but maybe you think that is too dark to usefully be included in the line of photographs for comparison purposes?

[PRC]

15 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

is in fact Lieutenant Kenneth Waterhouse, not Hugh Waterhouse - the fact that there were two Waterhouses being the reason why, as mentioned above, I was beguiled into thinking that my GF had told us that K. Waterhouse was good at French rather than H. Waterhouse!

Apologies - I'd mis read your earlier post and in my head had them as one and the same individual with the "K" just being a poorly written "H". Less haste more speed

15 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

We do also have the 1933 photograph from the Lancashire Daily Post article found by @brianmorris547 , but maybe you think that is too dark to usefully be included in the line of photographs for comparison purposes?

I tried including it but within the limits of the quick and dirty method of doing a side by side comparison it meant reducing the size of all of the images to such an extent as to have a serious impact on making any kind of judgement. Add in the lower level of details and it really didn't add much. However with the 1914 picture of Kenneth now removed from the comparison panel the 1933 image does come back into play.

As to who he was in the Bedford 1915 picture I'm torn between 8, 14 and 15 - although you have 8 down already as Second Lieutenant J.C. Latter.
All three look to be tall men by comparison to others in their row

8 and 14 look like like could be shot-putters.

Ears on 8 and 14 look a better match shape wise internally and externally for the known pictures of Hugh Waterhouse. Tips on all three officers look like they could be at about the right height, with 8 possibly the lowest. Lobes on 14 seem closest to the position on the head of the known  pictures of Hugh Waterhouse.

Chin on 14 is a goodish match, although the other two aren't far off.

But nose and eyes are where 14 loses out. Both 8 and 15 have the deepset eyes, although not convinced about eyebrow shape on 15 and that area on 8 isn't visible.

So for me not enough of a match to convict any of them.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

19 hours ago, PRC said:

Apologies - I'd mis read your earlier post and in my head had them as one and the same individual with the "K" just being a poorly written "H". Less haste more speed

Absolutely no need for any apologies. Now I have looked properly through all the information that you have found about Hugh Waterhouse and followed all the links, I am even more impressed than I was before, if that is possible.

So, taking it step by step:

Manchester Grammar School: I followed the link to the magazines, thank you, but I think that they are unlikely to be a source of photographs, or even, probably any additional information of any great interest other than perhaps occasional mentions in relation to Hugh's developing prowess at sports etc. The only photographs in the magazines seem to be in connection with obituaries. At the beginning of the war letters from Old Boys at the front were included, and I wondered if there might be one from Hugh, but as the war went on, understandably they became overwhelmed with including tributes to fallen Old Boys, and in the end, couldn't even keep up with that. Still, I think it might be worth writing to the archivists at Manchester Grammar School to see if they can help.

Retford King Edward VI Grammar School: It would be nice if Sam Curt was able to assist. Failing that, I have noticed that the National Archives has in its catalogue documents related to Retford Grammar School https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F220108 to include photographs of school and staff from 1905, but the items are not digitised, and are held in the Nottinghamshire Archives. It would be a long shot to think that they might include a named photograph of the very junior Hugh Waterhouse between 1911 and 1914; he might just appear on a photograph of the whole school, but would be unlikely to be identified. it is very possible that the photographs will only be those which are to be found on this site http://www.oldretfordians.org.uk/1-Archive/PHOTO_GALLERY_HOME.PHP (which includes contributions from Sam Curtis).

St John's College Cambridge, graduating in 1920, according to the Lancashire Daily post article, Oxford and Cambridge Athletics Club (trio to America in the summer of 1921), teaching at Rugby School between graduating and going to Lytham in September 1921.

The link to the thumb nail photograph of the Cambridge athletics team, including Harold Abrahams, circa 1921, on sale for £250, is very tantalising, but, as you say, it is impossible to make anything of it, and, if it is an undergraduate team, Hugh Waterhouse may not have been in it, as he was no longer an undergraduate in 1921. I think that what may have happened in his career at this time is that he studied for his degree during 1919 and 1920 (I believe that there may have been a special dispensation for ex-servicemen to allow them to take their degrees more quickly, as I understand that something similar happened after WW2); then, based on the Lancashire Daily Post article, he must have spent at least part of 1920/21 teaching at Rugby, possibly as a student teacher; I am not sure how teacher training worked then, and whether it was necessary to attend a teacher training institution; if so, perhaps he may have done this in Cambridge, and therefore continued to belong to an athletics club there, thus qualifying to be picked for the joint Oxford and Cambridge athletics team in 1921; or possibly the only qualification required to be picked for that team was that you were or had been an undergraduate of Oxford or Cambridge, in which case he might have spent all or most of the year teaching at Rugby.

I followed the link to the St John's archive provided by you, and found that it does appear that there is a photograph of the Athletics Club Blues in 1920 according to this link https://archivesearch.lib.cam.ac.uk/repositories/2/archival_objects/88186 which must surely include Hugh Waterhouse, but you have to visit the college to see it. There is also an album containing photos of sportsmen in action from 1920 to 1939  https://archivesearch.lib.cam.ac.uk/repositories/2/archival_objects/51695

King Edward VII School , Lytham: again it might be worth writing to the Archivist of the current school (AKS) to see if they have any information, though, having browsed the list of items in the archive, it rather looks as though they may not have anything prior to 1940. however, you have struck gold with finding those two books with e.g. the memorable quote about Hugh occasionally lifting his pupils off the ground by holding them by the scruff of the shirt collar, and also the wedding photograph. There may also be other interesting information in the book by Dorothy Dunlop. One short extract that I have been able to read sadly records that Hugh's letters written to his brother Gilbert during the war have not survived.

Regarding the patrol on Christmas Eve 1915 mentioned in Dorothy Dunlop's book, my GF tells the story of that patrol in his memoir, and how distressed Hugh was that he lost a man, and was unable to find him, even though he went into No Man's Land in broad daylight to search for him.

Chorley Grammar School: absolutely brilliant to find all those photos featuring Hugh Waterhouse centre stage.

So now to the question of which is Hugh Waterhouse in the 1915 Bedford photograph.

I agree that we have to rule out Officer 14 on the basis of the eyes and nose, though heightwise he would be a candidate. As for Officer 8, I am fairly confident that he is Latter. I am happy to show you the other photos that lead to that conclusion if you wish, but there is another reason why I don't think Officer 8 can be Hugh Waterhouse. Although he is a little taller than the two men on his right and the two men on his left, he is not unusually tall when you look at the back row as a whole, and, in fact, appears roughly the same height as my grandfather, who was 5 ft 7 1/4 in. The two of them also look roughly the same height in another photo of them taken together, when representing the 2/5th LF at the unveiling of the Givenchy Memorial on 15 May 1921. So I conclude that Officer 15 is much more likely to be Hugh Waterhouse, as he towers over most of the other men in that row. Also, I actually think the eyebrows are quite a good match - low over the eyes, and slightly curved. Also, the sloping shoulders of Hugh Waterhouse in, e.g. the wedding photograph, and also some of the other known photographs of him, are a good match for Officer 15, whereas the shoulders of Officer 8 are broad and square.

What do you think? Or is the jury still out?

Tricia

 

 

Edited 7 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
To correct Officer numbers

[brianmorris547]

Re Hugh Waterhouse.

For interest this is the list of athletes who went to the USA and the programme.

BNA via FMP Daily Herald 07/07/1921 and Daily News London 20/07/1921.

Brian

Edited 7 March by brianmorris547

[PRC]

13 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

So I conclude that Officer 15 is much more likely to be Hugh Waterhouse, as he towers over most of the other men in that row. Also, I actually think the eyebrows are quite a good match - low over the eyes, and slightly curved. Also, the sloping shoulders of Hugh Waterhouse in, e.g. the wedding photograph, and also some of the other known photographs of him, are a good match for Officer 15, whereas the shoulders of Officer 8 are broad and square.

What do you think? Or is the jury still out?

A tentative thumbs up on 15 - I may be being misled by his facial expression in the Bedford picture, which makes his right eyebrow seem more arched than all of the comparison pictures. There may also be some unconscious bias here - my last school, (ex grammar until the year I arrived - surely a co-incidence as I had passed the 11-plus to get there!), had a strong sporting record as well as an academic one. I'm fairly certain that the two props from the school first xv rugby team were also usually the shot putters in the school athletic team. But which way the relationship ran I could not tell you - were they putters so became props, or props so became putters. All I know is that of the two first choice props in my year group one became a schoolboy international rugby player and the other was selected as a young Olympian shot putter - junior athletes with the potential to go to the Olympics in the future and who were taken along by the British team to gain experience of attending such events. So potentially I may have hung back from seeing Waterhouse as Officer 15 as there was no reference in the editions of the Manchester Grammar School magazine that I looked at of him playing for the rugby team, or indeed any other team sport.

But the sloping shoulders are a point in favour of Officer 15, and one which I hadn't picked up on.

And does he perhaps have the look of a tall man who has tried to make himself seem smaller - perhaps if he stood up straight he would be taller than Officer 14.

Cheers,
Peter

[brianmorris547]

We can eliminate Joseph McGrath, named as 2/Lt 5 LFs in the LG 29119 06/04/1915.

In the LG as L/Cpl Duke of Lancaster's Yeomanry. His Service Number was 3297 and he disembarked in Egypt in November 1914. He was Discharged to a Commission in 5 LFs w e f 13/05/1915. There is a 2/Lt J McGrath named in the October 1915 WD of 1/5 LFs in Gallipoli.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

LG 29133 16/04/1915 names as 2/Lts 5 LFs Arthur Vincent Barwood, who went to France with B Co, 2/5 and Harold Mason Ainscow, who is not mentioned as an Officer who proceeded to France with 2/5.

The 1911 Census shows Arthur, age 20, and his father with the same name age 43, as musicians with 1 Royal Berkshire.

The 1911 Census shows a possible for Harold Ainscow age 17, Divinity Student, of The Hawthorns, Hindley, Lancs. 

There are a number of post war references to a Priest named Harold Mason Ainscow ordained in 1920 but no mention of military service. I remember from Norman Hall's book that Mr Ainscow was known for forgetting to wear his revolver.

LG 29135 16/04/1915 names as 2/Lt 5 LFs Whateley Abbotts - 1911 Census age 37, widowed, of Tutbury, Burton on Trent.

Named in the Derbyshire Advertiser 1910 as a debtor who was declared bankrupt and in the Derbyshire Daily Telegraph 11/07/1919 at his father's funeral. Floral tributes from the boys Captains T G Abbotts, Whateley Abbotts, and A G Abbotts and present was Captain G W Abbotts.

Brian

Edited 7 March by brianmorris547
typo

[PRC]

@A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy we've roamed far and wide with this thread and I'm finding myself a bit lost with what the scope is, (we seem to have wandered, in a good way, beyond the officers of B Company), where we are with each officer and what is outstanding.

It's just a suggestion, but would it be possible to run us through the state of play for officers 1 to 30 with a brief summary and confirm:-

• if comparable images have been found;
• if identification of the man from other photos and your grandfathers diary entries is, i.e Positive, (100%), Good (75%-99%), Probable, (51%-74%) and Tentative (50% and under)
• what is known to be outstanding - for example if the way forward is to check an officer file at Kew or hear back from a school  \ college archivist.
• then list the outstanding unmatched names - hopefully we are down to under 10 outstanding now.
• Just an additional thought, but we have also touched on ages of some of these men at the time of the Bedford picture and you've picked up on heights.  Would it be an idea to add that to the labels on the picture and do an update.
• An additional step would be to colour code the boxes you've added on an updated version of this picture in line with the certainty of the identification - would provide an instant graphical representation of where we are so far and what remains to be done.

And please feel free to ignore any and all of the above - I'm just hoping that a summary of where we've got to will help concentrate minds and draw in new contributors.

Cheers,
Peter

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 07/03/2024 at 22:08, PRC said:

we've roamed far and wide with this thread and I'm finding myself a bit lost with what the scope is, (we seem to have wandered, in a good way, beyond the officers of B Company), where we are with each officer and what is outstanding.

I think that is an excellent idea, and I will work on a summary over the weekend. I think if we are to draw others in I maybe need to start a new thread with a snappy title, maybe The Mystery 30th man with the 2/5th LF in Bedford or some such, and I can begin with the resume of the others, and where we've got to, which might just bring in some other ideas.

Anyway, for now we only have three names and four faces completely unaccounted for, about which I will post on the other thread later today or tomorrow. I don't actually have much to go on for the other three names.

Meanwhile I have some other specific questions/ comments, about the last two or three posts on here which it's probably best to get out of the way first.

Starting with Hugh Waterhouse, I think that I have worked out the origins of the Oxford and Cambridge team which went to America in the summer of 1921. There was (in fact, is) something called the Achilles Club about which there is useful information on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_Club and here https://www.ouac.org/achilles-club . As will be seen, the requirement for membership of this club was that you had been chosen to play for Oxford or Cambridge in a match against the other. You could be either a present or past undergraduate, and the club then regularly fielded teams against the top universities in America. The Club was founded in 1920 by Abrahams. So, I think the 1921 trip to America was the beginnings of this club, even though the name "Achilles Club" is not used in any of the reports. The nature of its membership would explain why Hugh Waterhouse could be a member even though he had graduated and was working as a teacher at Rugby. The St John's archive had photographs from the Achilles Club, but too late for them to include Hugh.

On 07/03/2024 at 08:53, brianmorris547 said:

For interest this is the list of athletes who went to the USA and the programme.

BNA via FMP Daily Herald 07/07/1921 and Daily News London 20/07/192

Thank you, Brian, for this list. I googled a few of the British side at random (which is what led me to the Achilles Club) and found that all the ones I googled, at least, were also Olympic athletes, so Hugh Waterhouse was in very distinguished company. I agree with Peter that he looks quite willowy for a shot-putter, but it must have been something that his height and strength gave him an aptitude for (though not enough of an aptitude, it seems, to represent Britain in the Olympics). Googling images of shot-putters does produce photographs of men and women who are tall, but not necessarily all that beefy.

On 07/03/2024 at 20:25, brianmorris547 said:

The 1911 Census shows a possible for Harold Ainscow age 17, Divinity Student, of The Hawthorns, Hindley, Lancs. 

There are a number of post war references to a Priest named Harold Mason Ainscow ordained in 1920 but no mention of military service. I remember from Norman Hall's book that Mr Ainscow was known for forgetting to wear his revolver.

Ainscow was, as you say, not with the 2/5th LF in Bedford, and did not join them in France until November 1915. My GF tells us that his kit was actually on the train to go from Southport to Bedford with the rest, but he had to stay behind because my GF was substituted at the last moment to fill the role of Signals Officer. It wasn't just that there physically wasn't room for Ainscow on the train from Southport, as my GF in fact proceeded to Bedford by a different train from Bury. I did wonder briefly whether Ainscow might have been the 30th man in Bedford, and that he was left behind in Bedford rather than Southport, but that makes no sense if the reason for his being left behind was the appointment of my GF as Signals Officer, which happened prior to the unit's arrival in Bedford. As for the revolvers, it was worse than forgetting to take them - he was notorious for losing them! He seems to have been quite a character, and my GF found him a congenial companion. He did indeed become a vicar after the war, and in 1972 presided at the funeral of James Hutchinson VC. The VC was won by James as a private in a raid by the 2/5th LF on 28th June 1916, a raid which Ainscow also participated in.

On 07/03/2024 at 20:25, brianmorris547 said:

LG 29133 16/04/1915 names as 2/Lts 5 LFs Arthur Vincent Barwood, who went to France with B Co, 2/5 and Harold Mason Ainscow, who is not mentioned as an Officer who proceeded to France with 2/5.

The 1911 Census shows Arthur, age 20, and his father with the same name age 43, as musicians with 1 Royal Berkshire.

So now I know that there were at least two Arthur Vincent-Barwoods, which means that the two MICs for them, one as a private (Lance Corporal) who went abroad on 13 August 1914, and one as an Officer who went to France in May 1915 ("our" man) probably were for different men. You would expect that the older man would have gone abroad as a private immediately the war started on 13 August 1914, and that the younger man would have obtained a commission and gone to France with the 2/5th LF as a Lieutenant on 3 May 1915.

To avoid overmuch scrolling up and down, I am inserting below links to two posts which are pertinent to what I am going to say.

As can be seen, I know from the LG of 18 April 1915 that "our" man was a bandsman in the 9th KLR immediately before becoming a temporary Lieutenant in the 2/5th LF wef 17 April 1915.

Meanwhile, our best guess for Barwood in the Bedford photograph is Officer 22, thanks to some brilliant sleuthing by Peter, based inter alia on noting that Officer 22 has 3 medal ribbons. 

The younger A. V. Barwood, if 20 in 1911, would have been too young to have fought in the South African wars, or to have participated as bandsman in the coronation of Edward VII. Also, Officer 22 looks more "worn" than a 24 year old.

So, after all, contrary to expectation, was it the older man who applied for a commission and joined the 2/5th LF?

As mentioned previously, I still have to look at A.V. Barwood's officer's record at Kew, so final determination of this can wait until I have done so.

On 07/03/2024 at 20:25, brianmorris547 said:

LG 29135 16/04/1915 names as 2/Lt 5 LFs Whateley Abbotts - 1911 Census age 37, widowed, of Tutbury, Burton on Trent.

Named in the Derbyshire Advertiser 1910 as a debtor who was declared bankrupt and in the Derbyshire Daily Telegraph 11/07/1919 at his father's funeral. Floral tributes from the boys Captains T G Abbotts, Whateley Abbotts, and A G Abbotts and present was Captain G W Abbotts.

Again, to avoid overmuch scrolling I am including links to the two posts in this topic about Whateley which I think are most relevant,

This is another one which awaits my looking at Whateley Abbotts' service record at Kew, but can @brianmorris547 just confirm that the name of the man whose funeral took place on 11 July 1919 was Guy Abbotts of (or formerly of) Tutbury, the father of the Whateley who went to South Africa according to his discharge papers for that war (as per Peter's earlier post).

Also, is it possible to throw light who the Captain G.W. Abbotts who also attended the funeral was? Perhaps a brother of Guy? I can't see an MIC for him, so perhaps he was an older man, and took no part in WW1.

Finally, is it definitely the Whateley who went to South Africa who was declared bankrupt in 1910, given that this would normally have disqualified him from being an officer subsequently?

I am just wondering whether the name "Whateley" may have been used for more than one generation and/or branch of the Abbotts family, and whether this may be a source of confusion. Having said that, "our " man is certainly not a son of the Whateley who went to South Africa as his existing children were declared on his Imperial Yeomanry discharge papers, none of whom was Whateley, and any further children would have been too young.

Edited 10 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy
to alter joining up papers to discharge papers re Abbotts

[Mark Hone]

Some fabulous detective work going on here-fascinating stuff! Having said that, can I say that I am not at all convinced that number 9 is John Hartington?  He just doesn't look right to me. Mind you, I wouldn't have picked him out in the Senlis photograph and that definitely is him! I have two studio-taken portraits of my great-uncle, Cyril Evans (one of them my avatar, the other in a hat) and if I didn't know I'd be pushed to say that they were of the same person. Trawling through pages of the Manchester City Battalions' Book of Honour, (where they thoughtfully listed the people in each photograph alphabetically, rather than where they are in the picture) in search of Bury Grammar old boys, I know how difficult it can be to pick out people even when you have another, pretty good likeness of them to refer to. 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

15 hours ago, Mark Hone said:

Some fabulous detective work going on here-fascinating stuff! Having said that, can I say that I am not at all convinced that number 9 is John Hartington? 

I endorse wholeheartedly what you say about the detective work being carried out by Brian and Peter.

Regarding Hartington. was there any of the other 29 who did look right for him? Or do we have to accept that, as Officer 9 is the closest to the man labelled as him in the photograph of "B" Coy, that must be him?

 

[PRC]

For me these identifications should always have to come with caveats, starting with the likes of "probably", "possibly" and "believed to be" and then expanded upon as required.

In a previous working life when I could be called upon to repair broken datasets \ build databases on incomplete information, I had to qualify the data both individually and in the whole. Before I even started I had to draw up a key of what constituted a given level of certainty.

The gold standard was "five nines" - aka 99.999% sure, i.e. a 1 in 100,000 chance that I had got it wrong.

I've done a few photographic comparisons on this forum over the years and only once have I come across anything near a "five nines". One of the officers in a group shot was dead within a few months and a crop of his head from the same photograph accompanied articles reporting his death. Even then with my cautious hat on I still wouldn't go to the full 100% - the identification in the earlier photograph could have been reverse engineered from the newspaper article so it's not two separate identifications of the same man, for example. But such qualifications usually come within the realm of being unsolvable, (how an identification came about is almost certainly undocumented) and for many may smack of nit-picking!

Using the five nines example what if the identification had come 10,20,30, 40, 50, 100 years later? And who did the identification - a well meaning relative who never actually knew them but grew up being told the picture was of Officer X. Whose memory \ what source are you relying on, and how good was it. These factors all have the capacity to bring the certainty of identification down before you even start on image quality, image capture and the passage of time both on the individual and the photograph itself.

I believe a number of the identifications on the Bedford picture are getting into the 90% certainty level - by my yardstick that is good enough for a "probably".

However the identification is subjective rather than objective, and so other equally valid opinions will be available.

Cheers,
Peter

[SamCurt]

Greetings from the fly-boys-forum... am I allowed to be over here?

Fortunately I was alerted to one of your quotes attributed to me and followed its link here.

Our local library does indeed have a full set of the King Edward VI. Grammar School (KEGS) magazines for 1911 to post-war, The Retfordian, but unfortunately they are kept under lock and key and only accessible while in the library.  As my main interest is wartime aviation-related boys, Mr. WATERHOUSE wasn't on the radar, although he does appear to have crossed paths with some of those being looked into.

As such, I'm having to go through each page again to find any references to him.

To clear up any confusion, so far two published photographs of Mr. WATERHOUSE have been found; one with the KEGS 1911 1st XI Cricket Team, the other with the KEGS 1911-12 1st XI Football Team.  Please excuse the distorted text at the bottom, these School magazines have been bound into books covering numerous issues.  I'm not very good with faces, but the Mr. WATERHOUSE identified on these two picture seem to be a different person on each, although he was connected with both teams at this time.  Hopefully somebody will be better than me and can cross-check with any other examples already found.

 

 

 

His arrival was in:

The Retfordian, Vol. V., No. 1, Easter Term 1911, page 7 - "We also extend a welcome to Mr. H. Waterhouse, Mr Köster's successor.  He has come to us with a big athletic reputation, which he won at Manchester Grammar School.  He was captain there of football, and his Long Jump of 19 feet 7 inches in 1909 was a record for the school, which has not yet been beaten."

with his departure in:

The Retfordian, Vol. VIII., No. 3, Autumn Term 1914, page 65 - "We much regret to have to record the loss of three members of the School Staff - all of whom will be greatly missed - Mr. Lamb, Mr. Waterhouse, and Mr. Lidster.  Mr. Lamb left us in order to take up work of an important kind in his old School ; Mr. Waterhouse, the value of whose services as House and Games' Master it would be difficult to over-estimate, has entered at S. John's College, Cambridge.  Mr. Lidster, who had been with us so many years as pupil and master, has accepted a very responsible post on the staff of the Quorn Grammar School."

In between these two articles Mr. WATERHOUSE had many many mentions, with regards to the 1st XI. Cricket Team,  1st XI. Football Team, Scout Patrols (Assistant Scout Master), references to him being in charge of a wildlife aquarium, compiling Gymnastics reports, School Hockey Team, 1st violin in the School Orchestra, House Master, and a trip to the US & Canada - long narratives in Spring, Summer & Autumn 1914 editions, but first one starts with, "One hot afternoon last August found me and my chum on the Princess Landing-stage at Liverpool waiting to board the S.S. Megantic," suggesting this trip was made in 1913.

Even after leaving he was still mentioned as an Old Retfordian, being listed as "Waterhouse, Hugh, Lieut., 5th (Reserve) Batt. Lancs. Fusiliers" from the Spring Term 1915 edition, followed by an extract of his "Letter From The Front."

I am in the process of identifying his numerous individual entries, then will scan & transcribe them as quickly as possible, but this may take some time as I only visit the metropolis that is Retford once a week to use the library's computers/inter-webs for a whole two hours!  So far only got as far as Spring Term 1916, which remarks on him being wounded in the hand while on a patrol between the lines on Xmas night (1915?), unfortunately one of his men was killed and another, who he carried back, had an arm blown off.

Till later,
Sam

[brianmorris547]

@A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy Re Whateley Abbotts.

The Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal 18/07/1919 has a more complete report of the funeral of Guy Abbotts. It seems that Captain G W Abbotts was a son as well.

EDIT: This report from the Derbyshire Advertiser 26/02/1916 shows that Captain G W Abbotts had a son who was wounded.  

Brian

BNL via FMP

Edited 9 March by brianmorris547

[brianmorris547]

On 20/02/2024 at 23:20, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

My GF says that H Barnes (i.e. Lieutenant R.H. Barnes in the 5th Reserve newspaper photograph)  also received orders to proceed to Egypt with Laughlin and Frizelle, but I can't find an MIC card for him - maybe that is just my lack of expertise in searching.

Re Richard Henry Barnes. He is mentioned in the WD of 1/5 LFs in Gallipoli. He can be eliminated as a possible on the Bedford photo.

His MIC does indeed say France May 1915 but he is mentioned on the first page of the 1/5 WD as being left in Egypt, attached to the Hertfordshire Yeomanry, as 1/5 prepared to move to Gallipoli. This entry was dated 01/05/1915 so unless there were two 2/Lts R H Barnes his MIC must be incorrect. I looked at the WD of 1/1 Hertfordshire Yeomanry (1 Composite Mounted Brigade, 2 Mounted Div WO 95/4293). The WD starts in August 1915 as the Unit prepared to move to Suvla. No R H Barnes is named in the Officers who embarked nor in those left behind. I could find no record that he rejoined 1/5 in Gallipoli. The WD of 42 Div A&QMG lists all Officers joining the Div and on 11/10/1915 records that a Captain R H Barker of 6 LFs was admitted to hospital on 10/10/1915. There is no mention of this in the 6 Bn WD so I can not confirm his name.

He has a Silver War Badge but I can not tell if it was for sickness or wounds. It shows him as Captain, Royal Lancashire Fusiliers (sic) and an address in Tottington, Bury.

Brian

Edited 10 March by brianmorris547
typo

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

6 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Re Richard Henry Barnes. He is mentioned in the WD of 1/5 LFs in Gallipoli. He can be eliminated as a possible on the Bedford photo.

Thank you Brian, for resolving this one beyond any further doubt. As R.H. Barnes is specifically referred to in the 1/5th LF WD as having been in Egypt on 1 May 1915, he cannot, as you say, also have been in Bedford on that day, so that rules him out as the 30th man in the group photograph.

[PRC]

On 09/03/2024 at 13:50, SamCurt said:

Greetings from the fly-boys-forum... am I allowed to be over here?

Fortunately I was alerted to one of your quotes attributed to me and followed its link here.

Our local library does indeed have a full set of the King Edward VI. Grammar School (KEGS) magazines for 1911 to post-war, The Retfordian, but unfortunately they are kept under lock and key and only accessible while in the library.  As my main interest is wartime aviation-related boys, Mr. WATERHOUSE wasn't on the radar, although he does appear to have crossed paths with some of those being looked into.

As such, I'm having to go through each page again to find any references to him.

To clear up any confusion, so far two published photographs of Mr. WATERHOUSE have been found; one with the KEGS 1911 1st XI Cricket Team, the other with the KEGS 1911-12 1st XI Football Team.  Please excuse the distorted text at the bottom, these School magazines have been bound into books covering numerous issues.  I'm not very good with faces, but the Mr. WATERHOUSE identified on these two picture seem to be a different person on each, although he was connected with both teams at this time.

Of course you're allowed in, and apologies for not picking up on your post earlier.

Thanking you for digging those images out - very much appreciated. For me the two individuals identified as Mr. Waterhouse look to be fundamentally the same.

• The natural hair-parting is the same on both and is consistant with the pictures later on in life.
• Ear shape, (internal and external) is the same and as far as I can tell located on the same position on the head - tips at or slightly above the eyebrows, lobes level with nostrils. Again thats how it appears on pictures from later in life, along with our candidate Officer 15 from the May 1915 picture.
• Eyebrows of the young man in the Cricket Team picture seems consistant with the pictures known or believed to be Hugh Waterhouse in later life The Football team man looks more Officer 15, perhaps indicating the level of variation to be looked for.
• Nose width and shape seems consistant between the two and with pictures from later in life. Lack of detail on the picture of Officer 15 makes it difficult (for me) to make a match.
• Mouth shape and width on face, (for the expression), seems the same, and is directly comparable with Officer 15 and the images from later in life.
• Chin match is slightly dodgy but that could be down to the light and conditions. The 1911 Cricket Team picture shows a young man with a chin that bears direct comparison with those known \ believed to be Hugh Waterhouse later in life. The 1911/12 Football Team man perhaps has more in common with Officer 15.
• And then we have the sloping shoulders used by @A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy to seal the likely identification of Hugh Waterhouse as Officer 15.

So putting them altogether and throwing Officer 15 into the mix produces this rogues gallery of a comparison!

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 11 March by PRC
Typos

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Hello @SamCurt I'm really sorry to have appeared to have ignored your efforts in searching the Retford School library. I thought that I had replied the same day, though possibly a little after midnight, as I see that the quotes below begin with "On 09/03/2024", suggesting that I did not select them on 9 March. Anyway, I suspect that what happened was that I pressed "submit reply" after I had already been signed out, or signed out before the reply had been properly uploaded, so nothing happened. Anyway, the text was preserved, and came up as soon as I clicked on the reply box. It will be seen that my reply also includes a response to Brian's post of 9 March. The odd thing is that my draft reply didn't come up when I began responding to Brian's post of yesterday, but I think I must have been on a different browser. Anyway, I will leave my replies just as I typed them originally, though we can now ignore the bit about waiting for @PRC to comment on the likeness or otherwise of the man in the Retford photographs to Officer 15. Thank you, Peter. for your comments.

 

Here is my earlier reply:

On 09/03/2024 at 13:50, SamCurt said:

To clear up any confusion, so far two published photographs of Mr. WATERHOUSE have been found; one with the KEGS 1911 1st XI Cricket Team, the other with the KEGS 1911-12 1st XI Football Team.  Please excuse the distorted text at the bottom, these School magazines have been bound into books covering numerous issues.  I'm not very good with faces, but the Mr. WATERHOUSE identified on these two picture seem to be a different person on each, although he was connected with both teams at this time.  Hopefully somebody will be better than me and can cross-check with any other examples already found.

Brilliant to find these two photographs. To me the man named as Mr. Waterhouse on both photographs looks to be the same man, though perhaps he does look a little as though he may have been suffering from mumps on the second photograph; but @PRC has said somewhere on this thread that he considers the width of face to be of secondary importance owing to the risk of distortion etc. He seems to me to fit with the image of Officer 15, including, in particular, the eyebrows, but I'd be interested to know what Peter has to say about it.

I'm very grateful for your researches in the library @SamCurt, Please don't put yourself out more than you are happy to do, but it would be particularly interesting, though, to have the full account of the patrol in December 1915, and also his letter from the front.

On 09/03/2024 at 14:53, brianmorris547 said:

The Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal 18/07/1919 has a more complete report of the funeral of Guy Abbotts. It seems that Captain G W Abbotts was a son as well.

EDIT: This report from the Derbyshire Advertiser 26/02/1916 shows that Captain G W Abbotts had a son who was wounded.  

Actually, I still think that Captain G.W. Abbotts may be a brother to Guy rather than a son, because there is already a full complement of six sons named as "the boys" who gave floral tributes without including him (three Captains and three civilians); also the attenders at the graveside included "five sons, Mr G,W, Abbotts ..." etc.; if  G.W. Abbotts had been a son you would expect the report simply to have recorded that six sons attended at the graveside. 

It only matters if the Captain Whateley Abbotts who fought in South Africa and was 41 in 1915 turns out not to be "our" Whateley Abbotts; potentially if G.W. Abbotts was the brother of the Guy Abbotts whose funeral was in July 1919 he might have had another son who was Transport Officer with the 2/5th LF, but that would have meant two cousins with the same name, which is surely unlikely; or, in theory, it could just about have been a man from the next generation down, but that would most likely be a bit young for a Transport Officer.

So it is probably more likely that the Captain Whateley Abbotts who fought in South Africa is "our" Whateley Abbotts. The only things that might be against him are if he was bankrupt and therefore disqualified from being an officer and/or if we can't find an eligible man in the photograph who could be aged 41.

 

Edited 11 March by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy