Officers, 279th Party, School of Musketry Photograph

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

But I'm struggling to see a similarity and the more I look at officer 19 the more discrepancies I see with the 20th Hussars Cap and Collar Badges.

I think it looks like it should Peter, it is a small picture and as with a lot of badges they can look odd on these old pictures.

Harts lists has him with the 20th Hussars 1911, they are at the Curragh in Ireland.

I can't find another C J Darling elsewhere so I can't see how  it could be anyone else.

Or Darling in this picture to be in another regiment.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100802173

I can't really see the collar badges in the picture above, they should be the same as the cap badge possibly a bit bigger.

Can you give us a bigger picture of him please @mrfrank. Thank you for the 'List'.

Regards, Bob.

 

[Cambria]

On 30/01/2024 at 15:03, mrfrank said:

Bought this damaged photo recently and have been trying to identify those present with the aid of the School of Musketry student logs on The Ogilby Muster. The squads were allocated by Surname alphabetically so 1-6 should be composed of the first half of the roll. I have managed to identify the majority via cap badges, but I have six yet to identify so if anyone can give me any pointers then I’d be grateful. Here’s the group photo and then those six individuals to follow……….

 

I wondered if you'd be able to scan a higher resolution image of this please? either that or take 4 close-up photographs? thank you in advance.

[Bob Davies]

@PRC Peter, here is the other picture courtesy of https://horsepowermuseum.co.uk/feb-2021-regimental-brooches/

There are 70 odd family trees on Ancestry containing John Clive Darling DSO.

However a lot of them are complete bunkum and the ones that seem ok show no pictures of him.

Second picture Courtesy of @mrfrank with Peters numbering.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Thanks Peter, we cannot hold that against you, cookhouse duties outweigh a number on here.

Getting your family fed and watered keeps you going too

@mrfrank  I found another candidate, Lt Edmund  Antrobus Grenadier Guards.

KIA. 24th October 1914 he is remembered on the Menin Gate.

Son of Sir Edmund Antrobus, 4th Bart., of Antrobus, Cheshire.

Screenshot courtesy of https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/history-and-stories/history/soldiers-at-stonehenge/

Screenshot courtesy of https://www.cheshireroll.co.uk/soldier/?i=7167

There is quite a lot of information about him on various web sites.

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/100868

Officer number 33 is my first option for facial features. @FROGSMILEif I may call on your expertise please for help with the presumably blue uniform that Officer 33 is wearing.

Is that a typical Grenadier Guards uniform of the time?

Regards, Bob.

Officer 33 is either, KRRC or RIR Bob, wearing regimental pattern patrol frock in rifle green with black buttons and a rope boss cap badge.

Edited 1 February by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Harts lists has him with the 20th Hussars 1911, they are at the Curragh in Ireland.

I can't find another C J Darling elsewhere so I can't see how  it could be anyone else.

Or Darling in this picture to be in another regiment.

Bob, possibly we are talking at cross purposes or I'm mis-understanding I don't dispute there was a John Clive Darling of the 20th Hussars on the course, and all things being equal he should be on the course photograph. The crop came from a higher resolution close-up rather than the whole group photograph, and so cap badge details and some collar badge details are discernable for the individuals - although I wouldn't say no to a closer close up either!  I looked at a number of pictures of men of the 20th Hussars in various resolutions and saw nothing to suggest what looked liked sloping sidebars leading up to a small crown. Now it may be that given the November 1911 date the sign off hadn't been given to any redesigned badge reflecting the change of monarch and so there is scope for a mis-match there - (but there will be a proviso, humble pie eating in a moment!).

My first thought was that perhaps the location given was incorrect, hence why I queried it when I put up the numbered picture up. But @mrfrank run through shows location to be correct and that we should be looking at Officer 19.

I then started working on those two pictures on the Horse Power website - one taken just prior to his wedding in 1918 and then one on the actual wedding 17th August 1918 - so less than 7 years after the course picture was taken. And hunting on the Internet turned up that he too had been at Eton but nothing in their digital archive.

But looking at the pre-wedding picture my eye was drawn to his left collar badge - not too dissimilar given the angle to the capbadge of Officer 19.

Still not wowed by the physical resemblance. May it's the sun but hard to think that the wide eyed man of 1911 had eyes that were so heavily lidded in 1918.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 1 February by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

@PRC Peter, here is the other picture courtesy of https://horsepowermuseum.co.uk/feb-2021-regimental-brooches/

There are 70 odd family trees on Ancestry containing John Clive Darling DSO.

However a lot of them are complete bunkum and the ones that seem ok show no pictures of him.

Second picture Courtesy of @mrfrank with Peters numbering.

He’s definitely a Hussar as those are ball buttons as per tradition.  The cap badge certainly looks more like 20th Hussars than anything else regular cavalry wise.  I agree that the photo has not been scanned as well as mrfrank’s previous original photos and any improvement that can be achieved will be a huge help.  As it was a originally a glass plate image the resolution should ordinarily be pin sharp.

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Bob, possibly we are talking at cross purposes or I'm mis-understanding I don't dispute there was a John Clive Darling of the 20th Hussars on the course, and all things being equal he should be on the course photograph. The crop came from a higher resolution close-up rather than the whole group photograph, and so cap badge details and some collar badge details are discernable for the individuals - although I wouldn't say no to a closer close up either!  I looked at a number of pictures of men of the 20th Hussars in various resolutions and saw nothing to suggest what looked liked sloping sidebars leading up to a small crown. Now it may be that given the November 1911 date the sign off hadn't been given to any redesigned badge reflecting the change of monarch and so there is scope for a mis-match there - (but there will be a proviso, humble pie eating in a moment!).

My first thought was that perhaps the location given was incorrect, hence why I queried it when I put up the numbered picture up. But @mrfrank run through shows location to be correct and that we should be looking at Officer 19.

I then started working on those two pictures on the Horse Power website - one taken just prior to his wedding in 1918 and then one on the actual wedding 17th August 1918 - so less than 7 years after the course picture was taken. And hunting on the Internet turned up that he too had been at Eton but nothing in their digital archive.

But looking at the pre-wedding picture my eye was drawn to his left collar badge - no too dissimilar given the angle to the capbadge of Officer 19.

Still not wowed by the physical resemblance. May it's the sun but hard to think that the wide eyed man of 1911 had eyes that were so heavily lidded in 1918.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Agreed.  I’m struggling to match this one too. 

Edited 1 February by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Officer 33 is either, KRRC or RIR Bob, wearing regimental pattern patrol frock in rifle green with black buttons and a rope boss cap badge.

Thank you for your reply FROGSMILE, that concurs with mrfranks listing and Peters numbering as 'Guy Vincent Hugh Gough   Lt  1st KRRC'

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

Bob, possibly we are talking at cross purposes or I'm mis-understanding I don't dispute there was a John Clive Darling of the 20th Hussars on the course, and all things being equal he should be on the course photograph. The crop came from a higher resolution close-up rather than the whole group photograph, and so cap badge details and some collar badge details are discernable for the individuals - although I wouldn't say no to a closer close up either!  I looked at a number of pictures of men of the 20th Hussars in various resolutions and saw nothing to suggest what looked liked sloping sidebars leading up to a small crown. Now it may be that given the November 1911 date the sign off hadn't been given to any redesigned badge reflecting the change of monarch and so there is scope for a mis-match there - (but there will be a proviso, humble pie eating in a moment!).

My first thought was that perhaps the location given was incorrect, hence why I queried it when I put up the numbered picture up. But @mrfrank run through shows location to be correct and that we should be looking at Officer 19.

I then started working on those two pictures on the Horse Power website - one taken just prior to his wedding in 1918 and then one on the actual wedding 17th August 1918 - so less than 7 years after the course picture was taken. And hunting on the Internet turned up that he too had been at Eton but nothing in their digital archive.

But looking at the pre-wedding picture my eye was drawn to his left collar badge - no too dissimilar given the angle to the capbadge of Officer 19.

Still not wowed by the physical resemblance. May it's the sun but hard to think that the wide eyed man of 1911 had eyes that were so heavily lidded in 1918.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter, I am at fault for not wording my thoughts correctly.

We are both singing from the same sheet and I have no note in my head. Ask the Missus about my dancing and the hole in her wedding dress

I strongly believe that from 1911 we have a young man, eyes open to the world and then an Officer who has seen and been through the horror of the Great War.

He died in 1933 aged 45 so I suspect that the war took its toll on him, in a way that possibly you or I cannot imagine, though we may try too.

Regards, Bob.

 

 

[mrfrank]

I shall endeavour to post a sharper image of CJ Darling tomorrow with the aid of some decent natural light.
Only with the aid of a folding magnifying glass - recommended by Bob himself some time ago - were the two Roman numerals ‘X’ noticeable to either side of the 20th Hussars cap badge. 

[PRC]

I may be having a change of heart on whether Officer 19 is John Clive Darling, (btw looks like there are a number of references in the newspapers, particularly in connection with horseracing and polo, where he is called "Jack" Darling).

I was thinking I may get a chance to go into the Library over the next couple of days and if I get a few spare minutes at the end of the session might be able to do some look ups. To save time I thought I'd check the British Newspaper Archive tonight  - which from the thumbnails shows potentially pictures in the Daily Mirror, 15th March 1918, (DSO award), Sunday Mirror 18th August 1918 (Wedding) and The Tatler 26th August 1925.

However copies of The Tatler up to 1929 are also now available on Archive Org. The relevant image is of him attending a Gymkhana at Bartley in the New Forest. This image of "The Honourable John Darling, D.S.O.", who was formerly in the 20th Hussars and served all throughout the Great War, shows a man with very wide eyes - but potentially with his nose broken. https://archive.org/details/the-tatler-1901-1929/1920-1929/1925/The Tatler %231260v097 (1925-08-26) (BNA)/page/n27/mode/2up?q=Darling+Hampshire+Foxhunting&view=theater

I had wondered with the 1918 pictures whether John Darling might have had his nose broken, but not as badly as it would appear here. I do have to admit it looks worse in the crop than it does in the magazine. As he appears to be standing in front of a white horse then that might be distorting things.

Adding that 1925 image into the mix:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 1 February by PRC
Typos

[PRC]

Well the trip to the library was a bust - the link to the British Newspaper Archives kept going down, and the couple of times it did come up it kept insisting I pay before it would let me see anything. I don't know when I'll get another chance so I'll just reference the newspapers I'm aware of that look like they might have images. If anyone has subscription access and can take a look to confirm that would be brilliant.

1. The Honourable James Boyle, Lieutenant, 2nd Battalion, Royal Scots Fusiliers when he attended the course and Captain, 1st Battalion when he was Killed in Action on the 18th October 1914.
He has no known grave and is remembered on the Le Touret Memorial.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Sources:

a:  Auckland Museum. https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/C35195
b: Bond of Sacrifice via Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/450788
c: Western Front Association: Article - Private Memorials on the Western Front. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/private-memorials-on-the-western-front/james-boyle/

And looking at the British Newspaper Archive there are potentially additional images in the editions of the:-
Daily Mirror, 16th September 1908 "Earls Son Married in London" - NB the clipping also appeared in connection with the Western Front Association article listed above. It has currently been removed and all Google have as a cached version is very blurry.
Morning Leader, 16th September 1908.
The Gentlewoman, 3rd October 1908.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

1. The Honourable James Boyle, Lieutenant, 2nd Battalion, Royal Scots Fusiliers when he attended the course and Captain, 1st Battalion when he was Killed in Action on the 18th October 1914.
He has no known grave and is remembered on the Le Touret Memorial.

Great work Peter, thanks for sharing it.

I think it is very interesting to put some flesh back on these pictures as it were.

I have been doing a bit of looking myself and found Captain Robert Harley Egerton Bennet  Somerset LI.

Edit; In the picture he appears to be a Lieutenant from his cuffs.

He took a series of pictures which are to be seen on this web site, picture below courtesy of them;https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

He won an MC at some stage.

Regards, Bob.

 

Edited 2 February by Bob Davies
to add a bit.

[PRC]

18 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I have been doing a bit of looking myself and found Captain Robert Harley Egerton Bennet  Somerset LI.

He took a series of pictures which are to be seen on this web site, picture below courtesy of them;https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

I have a number of pictures squirrelled away for him and others but was hoping to supplement them with images from the British Newspapers Archive. Now that doesn't look practical I'll start posting what I have.

2. Hugh Courtenay, Lieutenant 1st Battalion, Bedfordshire Regiment, Lieutenant-Colonel 1st Battalion M.C., D.S.O. when he died of wounds on the 21st August 1918, aged 30.
He is buried Bagneux British Cemetery, Gezincourt

Forum Member Steve Fuller @Stebie9173 has transcribed the Battalion War Diary on his Bedfordshire Regiment website.
18 Jun 1918 As above.(in Support Line) Enemy planes again active over our position. Major H.COURTENAY, M.C. joined Battalion.
23 Aug 1918 Brown Line, Achiet-le-Petit Battalion moved up in front of ACHIET Le Petit & moved forward to the attack at 11 A.M. All objectives taken, Battalion suffered rather heavily from Machine Gun fire. Casualties Lt.Col. H.COURTENAY, M.C.  wounded severely (since died). Lts. G.ABBOTT, H.J.A.WATSON, E.I.F.NAILER, A.R.C.EATON, R.H.ARNHOLZ, 2/Lts. F.H.FOX & W.T.PAINE Killed. 2/Lts. H.J.SNASHALL & F.J.KELF wounded. 129 O.R.s killed & wounded etc. Battalion withdrew to Brown Line in reserve.
The entries are fleshed out with Steve's notes and fuller names. http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/1stbn/1stbtn1918diary.html

Unfortunately auto-repair left a lot to desire when I was working with the close up picture rather than the whole group shot.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Sources:-

a: Hugh Courtenay courtesy www ww1cemeteries com https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/bagneux-british-cemetery-roh-a-l.html
b: Lieutenant Colonel Hugh Courtenay Bedfordshire Regiment courtesy FindAGrave. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56542955/hugh-courtenay

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

4. Thomas Charles Currie, schoolmaster and Lieutenant in the Junior Division of the Officers Training Corps, a role he seemed to have continued in throughout the war.

@mrfrank recorded him as T.C. Currie.

The edition of the London Gazette dated 18 November 1910 records on page 8290 under Cheltenham College Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps that Second Lieutenant Thomas C. Currie was to be a Lieutenant, dated 1st November 1910.https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28438/page/8290/data.pdf

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales a 29 year old Thomas Charles Currie, unmarried and born St. Leonards on Sea, Sussex, was recorded as a Schoolmaster and assistant head of the household at Leconfield, Cheltenham. The household return includes several pages of boarding students.

A piece in the 2012 edition of the Floreat, the magazine of the Cheltonian Society, looks at the heads of Christowe, (which I assume is a school house), over the years. A T.C. Currie took over in 1917 and remained head until 1930.https://issuu.com/cheltenhamcollege/docs/final_printer_version

It's of Thomas Charles Currie later in life but I believe there is enough similarity to make comparison possible.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Source:-

a: From the issue of the Cheltonian Society Magazine from 2012 in an article looking at past masters of Christowe (House?). https://issuu.com/cheltenhamcollege/docs/final_printer_version

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

40 minutes ago, PRC said:

I have a number of pictures squirrelled away for him and others but was hoping to supplement them with images from the British Newspapers Archive. Now that doesn't look practical I'll start posting what I have.

2. Hugh Courtenay, Lieutenant 1st Battalion, Bedfordshire Regiment, Lieutenant-Colonel 1st Battalion M.C., D.S.O. when he died of wounds on the 21st August 1918, aged 30.
He is buried Bagneux British Cemetery, Gezincourt

Forum Member Steve Fuller @Stebie9173 has transcribed the Battalion War Diary on his Bedfordshire Regiment website.
18 Jun 1918 As above.(in Support Line) Enemy planes again active over our position. Major H.COURTENAY, M.C. joined Battalion.
23 Aug 1918 Brown Line, Achiet-le-Petit Battalion moved up in front of ACHIET Le Petit & moved forward to the attack at 11 A.M. All objectives taken, Battalion suffered rather heavily from Machine Gun fire. Casualties Lt.Col. H.COURTENAY, M.C.  wounded severely (since died). Lts. G.ABBOTT, H.J.A.WATSON, E.I.F.NAILER, A.R.C.EATON, R.H.ARNHOLZ, 2/Lts. F.H.FOX & W.T.PAINE Killed. 2/Lts. H.J.SNASHALL & F.J.KELF wounded. 129 O.R.s killed & wounded etc. Battalion withdrew to Brown Line in reserve.
The entries are fleshed out with Steve's notes and fuller names. http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/1stbn/1stbtn1918diary.html

Unfortunately auto-repair left a lot to desire when I was working with the close up picture rather than the whole group shot.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Sources:-

a: Hugh Courtenay courtesy www ww1cemeteries com https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/bagneux-british-cemetery-roh-a-l.html
b: Lieutenant Colonel Hugh Courtenay Bedfordshire Regiment courtesy FindAGrave. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56542955/hugh-courtenay

Cheers,
Peter

 

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

4. Thomas Charles Currie, schoolmaster and Lieutenant in the Junior Division of the Officers Training Corps, a role he seemed to have continued in throughout the war.

@mrfrank recorded him as T.C. Currie.

The edition of the London Gazette dated 18 November 1910 records on page 8290 under Cheltenham College Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps that Second Lieutenant Thomas C. Currie was to be a Lieutenant, dated 1st November 1910.https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28438/page/8290/data.pdf

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales a 29 year old Thomas Charles Currie, unmarried and born St. Leonards on Sea, Sussex, was recorded as a Schoolmaster and assistant head of the household at Leconfield, Cheltenham. The household return includes several pages of boarding students.

A piece in the 2012 edition of the Floreat, the magazine of the Cheltonian Society, looks at the heads of Christowe, (which I assume is a school house), over the years. A T.C. Currie took over in 1917 and remained head until 1930.https://issuu.com/cheltenhamcollege/docs/final_printer_version

It's of Thomas Charles Currie later in life but I believe there is enough similarity to make comparison possible.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Source:-

a: From the issue of the Cheltonian Society Magazine from 2012 in an article looking at past masters of Christowe (House?). https://issuu.com/cheltenhamcollege/docs/final_printer_version

Cheers,
Peter

Well found Peter, you have traced both of these Officers.

Lt John Wyndham Aylmer  MC 4th  Dragoon Guards  has for me remained elusive for a later picture.

Courtown House, Co Kildare was their pile.

He gets a mention in this book 2 or 3 times. https://archive.org/details/record4throyalirishdragoonguards/page/n9/mode/2up

His son, Colonel Tony Aylmer is all over the  net as an Irish Guards Officer, easily found.

The rugby match got in my way a bit this evening, Ireland all over France, 38 to 17 ish

Cheers, Bob.

 

[PRC]

8. Robert Harley Egerton Bennett, Lieutenant 1st Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry at the time of the course, appears to have finished the war as a Major in the same Regiment and would go on to live until 1970.

A photo album that included pictures taken while serving in the Ypres Salient plus the Kodak Vest Camera he used to take them turned up when relatives were clearing the house. Subsequently those images have widely circulated on the internet.

Sources:-

a: Simply captioned "Self" this shows him outside a timbered bunker that has been 'christened' Somerset House. He was a Lieutenant at that point. https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

b: Captioned "Compton-Sutton-Doctor-Self H Q Dug out near Ypres". (Rank not visible) https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

c: The original caption is not shown in the source for this, which has instead supplied one of it's own "A photo of Captain Robert Harley Egerton Bennett and Campbell".

However only one of them is a Captain. We have what could well be a contemporary picture of Bennett outside "Somerset House" as a Lieutenant. And looking at the row that he is in in the Musketry Party photograph, Bennett is neither short or slight by comparison to his fellow officers. Of course if the Officer on our right is actually Campbell then he could be a stockily built giant! But while the two have similar colouring I suspect jawline and ears of the man on our right is much more in keeping with the other two images that come from the photo album.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/09/family-release-rare-wwi-pictures-they-found-decades-after-end-of-great-war-8122752/

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

4. Thomas Charles Currie, schoolmaster and Lieutenant in the Junior Division of the Officers Training Corps, a role he seemed to have continued in throughout the war.

@mrfrank recorded him as T.C. Currie.

The edition of the London Gazette dated 18 November 1910 records on page 8290 under Cheltenham College Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps that Second Lieutenant Thomas C. Currie was to be a Lieutenant, dated 1st November 1910.https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28438/page/8290/data.pdf

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales a 29 year old Thomas Charles Currie, unmarried and born St. Leonards on Sea, Sussex, was recorded as a Schoolmaster and assistant head of the household at Leconfield, Cheltenham. The household return includes several pages of boarding students.

A piece in the 2012 edition of the Floreat, the magazine of the Cheltonian Society, looks at the heads of Christowe, (which I assume is a school house), over the years. A T.C. Currie took over in 1917 and remained head until 1930.https://issuu.com/cheltenhamcollege/docs/final_printer_version

It's of Thomas Charles Currie later in life but I believe there is enough similarity to make comparison possible.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Source:-

a: From the issue of the Cheltonian Society Magazine from 2012 in an article looking at past masters of Christowe (House?). https://issuu.com/cheltenhamcollege/docs/final_printer_version

Cheers,
Peter

I think you’ve matched him perfectly Peter 👍

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

8. Robert Harley Egerton Bennett, Lieutenant 1st Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry at the time of the course, appears to have finished the war as a Major in the same Regiment and would go on to live until 1970.

A photo album that included pictures taken while serving in the Ypres Salient plus the Kodak Vest Camera he used to take them turned up when relatives were clearing the house. Subsequently those images have widely circulated on the internet.

Sources:-

a: Simply captioned "Self" this shows him outside a timbered bunker that has been 'christened' Somerset House. He was a Lieutenant at that point. https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

b: Captioned "Compton-Sutton-Doctor-Self H Q Dug out near Ypres". (Rank not visible) https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

c: The original caption is not shown in the source for this, which has instead supplied one of it's own "A photo of Captain Robert Harley Egerton Bennett and Campbell".

However only one of them is a Captain. We have what could well be a contemporary picture of Bennett outside "Somerset House" as a Lieutenant. And looking at the row that he is in in the Musketry Party photograph, Bennett is neither short or slight by comparison to his fellow officers. Of course if the Officer on our right is actually Campbell then he could be a stockily built giant! But while the two have similar colouring I suspect jawline and ears of the man on our right is much more in keeping with the other two images that come from the photo album.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/09/family-release-rare-wwi-pictures-they-found-decades-after-end-of-great-war-8122752/

Cheers,
Peter

Agreed.  Bennett on right 👍

Edited 2 February by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

26 minutes ago, PRC said:

8. Robert Harley Egerton Bennett, Lieutenant 1st Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry at the time of the course, appears to have finished the war as a Major in the same Regiment and would go on to live until 1970.

A photo album that included pictures taken while serving in the Ypres Salient plus the Kodak Vest Camera he used to take them turned up when relatives were clearing the house. Subsequently those images have widely circulated on the internet.

Sources:-

a: Simply captioned "Self" this shows him outside a timbered bunker that has been 'christened' Somerset House. He was a Lieutenant at that point. https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

b: Captioned "Compton-Sutton-Doctor-Self H Q Dug out near Ypres". (Rank not visible) https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2018/11/09/soldiers-photos-show-life-on-first-world-war-front-line/

c: The original caption is not shown in the source for this, which has instead supplied one of it's own "A photo of Captain Robert Harley Egerton Bennett and Campbell".

However only one of them is a Captain. We have what could well be a contemporary picture of Bennett outside "Somerset House" as a Lieutenant. And looking at the row that he is in in the Musketry Party photograph, Bennett is neither short or slight by comparison to his fellow officers. Of course if the Officer on our right is actually Campbell then he could be a stockily built giant! But while the two have similar colouring I suspect jawline and ears of the man on our right is much more in keeping with the other two images that come from the photo album.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/09/family-release-rare-wwi-pictures-they-found-decades-after-end-of-great-war-8122752/

Cheers,
Peter

The Captain on the left is not our man Peter. He does not have the same facial features.

I concur with @FROGSMILE that the officer on the right is Bennet.

If we find a picture of Campbell that would confirm it, however I do not think we need to go that far.

[Clancy]

Hello, this is the picture PRC mentioned for John Clive Darling in the Sunday Mirror 18.08.1918.  Sorry I have just snipped it and don't know how to enhance it (or get rid of the blue squares for that matter).  It was found using Findmypast, I have snipped the newspaper details as I didn't know how else to credit it.  It's a really interesting thread!

[PRC]

8 hours ago, Clancy said:

Hello, this is the picture PRC mentioned for John Clive Darling in the Sunday Mirror 18.08.1918.

Thank you @Clancy - much appreciated  Given what can be seen of that soldiers collar and his relative youthfulness I don't think this picture relates to him as he looked at his wedding. More likely it is from much earlier in his army career and may even predate the Musketry Course. It does put the cat right back amongst the pigeons - at least for me -  when it comes to making a call as to whether they are all images are of the same men. He certainly has the wide right eye and right eyebrow shape of Officer 19 and John Darling in 1925. But his left eyebrow seems at odds with Officer 19 and the pre-wedding picture, (detail is lacking in the wedding day picture and it's not visible in the 1925 picture). There is a problem with eye socket comparison generally, but I still wonder if in 1918 he might have suffered from a relatively recent bad nose break, (leaving his face swollen with bruising and consequently closing his eyes up), or gassing, (although all the stuff I could find online only talks about a 1916 wounding, and looking at his left cuff on the pre-wedding picture on the Horsepower website you can make out the one wound stripe - although that of course doesn't rule out a training accident), or even just hayfever\ allergic reaction, (although begs the question why he isn't suffering in the 1925 picture in an August report in a weekly magazine on a recent gymkhana).

Jury for me is out on his left ear - the Sunday Mirror picture is lacking detail on the lower outer edge of his ear where it would be most helpful.

Chin however seems consistent in all five images.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

8. Robert Harley Egerton Bennett, Lieutenant 1st Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry at the time of the course, appears to have finished the war as a Major in the same Regiment and would go on to live until 1970.

A History of the Somerset LI mentions Bennett and Campbell but no pictures of either Officers, only commanding Officers, Lt Colonel and above

are pictured.

A good reference book, though spoilt by the poor copying of maps.

https://archive.org/details/somersetlight-nfantry/page/n7/mode/2up

 

[PRC]

Officers 5 & 7 Either AH Burn, Lt., or Harold Lloyd de Forge Garland Lt., New Zealand Staff  Corps 

Only one low quality comparison photograph for Garland so far but some documentary evidence is available for both men in the service records on Archives New Zealand.

NB – I’ve linked to the index page for each. Just click on “View Original item”  and then “View online” on the next page to see file.

Andrew Haitly Burn* born 7th July 1887, can be found here https://digitalnz.org/records/35021253/burn-andrew-haitley

*He is indexed as Andrew Haitley Bunn and that spelling does occur on some pages, but one of the areas of at times interminably boring and downright petty internal memos and correspondence is the correct spelling of his forenames. The New Zealand authorities were upbraided by London at the time of the 1911 exchange because the officer they had been sent had appeared in the New Zealand Gazette as “Arthur Haitley Burn” and that was who they were expecting.

Harold Lloyd de Forge Garland, as Harold Lloyd de Forges Garland, born 24^th August 1885, can be found here https://digitalnz.org/records/34993691/garland-harold-lloyd-de-forges

In the various medical assessments in the paperwork for Andrew Haitly Burn he is described as either 6 feet or 5 feet 11 and three quarter inches tall with brown \ hazel eyes, and certainly up to 1921 with black hair.

But what’s available of Harold Lloyd de Forges Garland record only extends to 5 pages and does not include any physical description. He would serve again in WW2 but died of sickness in 1942. Unlike Burn I suspect his WW2 record, probably containing much of his WW1 record, is elsewhere and not yet available.

“"The death has occurred of Captain Harold L. de F. Garland, who was railway transport officer at Auckland. Born 57 years ago, Captain Garland was on the permanent staff the New Zealand Army before the outbreak of the last war. He served overseas, but severed his connection with the army when he returned. Entering civil life, he became manager of the  Passenger Transport Company at Papatoetoe. Captain Garland re-entered the army again when the present war broke out with his old rank. He is survived by his wife, two sons and two daughters. One son is a prisoner of war, while the other is an instructor at a tank school. One daughter, Meg Garland is a member of the W.A.A.C." [Auckland Star, Volume LXXIII, Issue 266, 10 November 1942, Page 4]” https://www.nzwargraves.org.nz/casualties/harold-lloyd-de-forge-garland

His webpage on the online Auckland Cenotaph has a small low quality picture which is stated to come from page 35 of the edition of the Otago Witness dated 22^nd November 1916, which is says can be found on www.paperspast.natlib.govt.nz and where he recorded as “Hassell Lloyd de Forges Garland”. https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/C24245

Using that paperspast website I can find two references to an officer by that name in that edition – but neither are on page 35 and the relevant notice \ article as reproduced on that website does not have an accompanying picture. I tried a few other searches like “ Garland” and “Captain” but kept hitting that no preview was available for many of the results. There does not appear to be any facility to look at whole pages or scroll between pages, so for now the accuracy of that identification of it being a picture of Garland remains in doubt. On that basis I’ve not done a side by side comparison including him.

I can’t tell if Officer’s 5 and 7 are both wearing some kind of medal ribbon. 7 certainly is, and it seems an awful co-incidence for Officer 5 to have blemished image in just the right place for a medal ribbon.

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

For Captain Andrew Haitly Burn, New Zealand Rifle Brigade the early part of his career goes:-

Enrolled in McKenzie Mounted Rifles 6^th September 1904.
Transferred to Christchurch Highland Rifles 31^st May 1905.
Transferred to Kelso Mounted Rifles 1^st March 1907.
Transferred to Clutha Mounted Rifles 1^st January 1909.
Appointed to New Zealand Staff Corps 17^th March 1911. (He was then working as a Teacher).
Embarked with New Zealand Expeditionary Force 9^th October 1915.
Arrived Egypt 18^th November 1915 to serve with the New Zealand Rifle Brigade.
Hopitalized in Alexandria 7^th December 1915 with suspected Enteric.
Invalided to New Zealand 11^th February 1916.
Returned to New Zealand 14^th March 1916.

It shows him as discharged 26^th May 1916 from the Expeditionary Force but he continued to serve in the Defence Force with the Staff. From July 1916 he began campaigning to go overseas again, but surprisingly the response seemed to have been that he had had his turn and that as there were other Officers of the New Zealand Staff Corps still to be sent out, he would have to wait. To aid he cause he voluntarily attested again on the 3^rd May 1917, being medically graded A1, but it was only when his age group became eligible for the military ballot in July 1918 that further overseas service was considered. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately for Andrew, his training had not completed before the war was over. He was finally posted to the Reserve of Officers from the New Zealand Staff Corps on the 25^th September 1921.

He would received the New Zealand Long and Efficient Service Medal in the same year.

His Service Schedule includes this note on page 46.

 

Burn and Garland were part of a group of four offices being sent over on the exchange, and in the file for Burn there is a detailed itinerary for each. Part of the schedule in the entries for both men appears on page 127 in Burn’s file.

The file includes a note confirming that Burn and Garland had passed in both Musketry and Machine Gun. It was accompanied by a pro-forma from the Commandant of the School of Musketry - something similar for Musketry is most likely in the Officers papers of all those attending.

And the last paragraph of this letter also seems relevant.

 

All service record extracts courtesy The New Zealand Archive.

Andrew Burn served as a Commissioned Officer in the New Zealand Home Guard in WW2

He finally retired from the Reserve of Officers on reaching the maximum age in 1948. He died at Tauranga on the 21^st January 1967.

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

Thank you for all the information coming in on these individuals - I’ll try and get some clearer images posted tomorrow. Sorry for delay, but away from home for a couple of days. 
Mike 

[Bob Davies]

20 hours ago, PRC said:

: The original caption is not shown in the source for this, which has instead supplied one of it's own "A photo of Captain Robert Harley Egerton Bennett and Campbell".

However only one of them is a Captain. We have what could well be a contemporary picture of Bennett outside "Somerset House" as a Lieutenant. And looking at the row that he is in in the Musketry Party photograph, Bennett is neither short or slight by comparison to his fellow officers. Of course if the Officer on our right is actually Campbell then he could be a stockily built giant! But while the two have similar colouring I suspect jawline and ears of the man on our right is much more in keeping with the other two images that come from the photo album.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/09/family-release-rare-wwi-pictures-they-found-decades-after-end-of-great-war-8122752/

Cheers,
Peter

Just to confirm our thoughts here Peter et al,

the Captain on the left is Captain Niel Alister Henry Campbell  SLI.

Born born 28th October 1881 in London.

Died 1 March 1950

Married Edith Muriel, daughter of Colonel Charles Henry Dudley Ryder CB CIE DSO Royal Engineers. 28 June 1868 – 13 July 1945. Quite a chap in his own right, I may add.

Niel Alister Henry Campbell is on 180 odd family trees on Ancestry but no pictures of him that I can find.

There is this one which I am sure is him.

Screen shot courtesy of; https://ryderarchives.weebly.com/enids-watercolours.html

https://ryderarchives.weebly.com/colonel-charles--ida-ryder.html

 

From his military records Niel is 5' 9" tall, so if Bennett is a six footer it will make Campbell look small in the picture, especially as he is standing a few feet behind Bennett.

Campbell served in South Africa 1901/02 Edit here;   Picture courtesy of X that was twitter.

Severely wounded 21st -7th-1901.

Awarded Queens South Africa Medal with 5 clasps.

Also wounded in the Great War 18th Novvember 1914 'Plugstreet Wood' page 49 this book.

https://archive.org/details/somersetlight-nfantry/page/49/mode/2up

Regards, Bob.

 

 

Edited 3 February by Bob Davies
to add a bit..

[Bob Davies]

On 30/01/2024 at 18:15, mrfrank said:

Samuel Alwyne Gabb as being in the 2nd row from the back, 4th in from the right

Mike there is an interesting web site about the Gabb Brothers here, including a contemporary photo of Samuel.

Screenshot courtesy of https://www.surreyinthegreatwar.org.uk/author/jh0107/