Officers, 279th Party, School of Musketry Photograph

[mrfrank]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The exams were usually taken on arrival I believe, as it wasn’t feasible to send them out to all of the widely dispersed stations of those times and guarantee receipt.  Failure of the examination, which usually occurred on day one (a sort of entrance test), usually entailed immediate return to unit (RTU).  The tests were generally a little dreaded by all but the most obtuse characters, as there was inevitably a loss of face and ignominy back in the parent unit.

 For the musketry course the entrance examination usually entailed a good knowledge of what every junior cavalry and infantry officer was expected to have learned from the musketry staff of his regiment/battalion.  This staff generally comprised of the battalion adjutant, who was usually dual roled to be the battalion musketry officer via possession of a certificate from Hythe’s School of Musketry, plus perhaps more practically the Sergeant Instructor of Musketry (colour sergeant after around 1902 I think).

Typical subjects were the listed principles of musketry, details of rifle velocity, windage, trajectory, judging distance and sight setting.  If these basics had not been mastered already then it was felt that the student would be wasting the school’s instructional staff’s time.

Thanks Bob. Thought it must have been taken on arrival, hence their entries on the student roll. I can imagine a pretty dim view must have been taken by parent units of those failing the entrance exam and being RTU’d. 

By today’s standards, I rather admire that old-fashioned ‘no nonsense’ approach of not wanting to waste the School Staff’s time. 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Thanks Bob. Thought it must have been taken on arrival, hence their entries on the student roll. I can imagine a pretty dim view must have been taken by parent units of those failing the entrance exam and being RTU’d. 

By today’s standards, I rather admire that old-fashioned ‘no nonsense’ approach of not wanting to waste the School Staff’s time. 

Yes the parent regiments usually took a very dim view, as it was felt that the officer had let his regiment’s reputation down, had manifestly failed in some way to prepare himself, and more importantly cast aspersions on the regiment’s attentiveness in preparing its officers for attendance on the course.  Foot Guards in particular were serious about this as they valued their public status as elite regiments.

[mrfrank]

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes the parent regiments usually took a very dim view, as it was felt that the officer had let his regiment’s reputation down, had manifestly failed in some way to prepare himself, and more importantly cast aspersions on the regiment’s attentiveness in preparing its officers for attendance on the course.  Foot Guards in particular were serious about this as they valued their public status as elite regiments.

A dim view indeed! Presumably, Capt AH Case of the Dorsetshire Regiment, at least finished the course of instruction before having 'Failed' annotated in red next to his name in the roll.

For info, Lt GM Gerard (2nd HLI) was the only individual to earn a 'Distinguished'.

 

 

Edited 31 January by mrfrank

[PRC]

20 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Two RMLI officers. Again two named on the roll as Lt Aiden Isaac Bell & Lt George Pinckard Lathbury.

When I was writing yesterday about George Pinckard Lathbury, as well as pointing to potential sources of images for him via his boarding school, (Charterhouse) and newspapers in connection with his second marriage in 1933, I also linked to the London Gazette entry for the award of the Distinguished Sevice Cross.

The citation reads:-“For services with the Royal Naval Division in Gallipoli, where he performed exceptionally good services with the machine-guns of the Royal Marine Brigade, and showed coolness and resource on critical occasions.”

And when looking for a image source for him on Archive org I noted in passing a number of Navy Lists had him attached Machine Gun Corps, and that there are then monthly \  quarterly appearances for him in the Army List.

As usual the cogs whirr slowly but get there in the end. We had a thread recently about whether the uniform of an officer who followed the same path in the Great War would wear naval as well as army insignia, and which rank would they display.

It was a thread to which forum members @horatio2 and @michaeldr contributed knowledgeably. I wonder if they may have come across an image of him or know of any more potential sources?

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

A dim view indeed! Presumably, Capt AH Case of the Dorsetshire Regiment, at least finished the course of instruction before having 'Failed' annotated in red next to his name in the roll.

For info, Lt GM Gerard (2nd HLI) was the only individual to earn a 'Distinguished'.

 

 

The protocols were still the same during my time as a SNCO and then WO on the Infantry School’s instructional staff.  There were occasions when I had to fail an officer student, but equally there were regularly students who earned a distinguished grade.

Edited 31 January by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

An Ancestry tree has a picture of a Lieutenant Lionel Gartside, but as I can’t see the tree I have no way of knowing if it relates to the officer we are interested in. So unless someone can source a better version of the picture from Ancestry and confirm the (basic) details held in the family tree, here is the best I can do.

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

 

My best guess, if the Ancestry picture is of the right Lionel Gartside, would be a match for the officer on the right.

 

Cheers,

From an ancestry tree Peter containing Lionel Gartside DSO , all his details match up to what you have suggested in your post and a better picture confirms your picture.

Born Lanarkshire 13th Feb 1887. Father is George Frederick Gartside Neville1839-1922, mother is Frances Berkley 1863-1940.

Census at Brunswick school 1901etc, all matches up.

Regards, Bob.

Picture/screenshot courtesy Ancestry .co .uk.

 

[PRC]

13 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

I would note that a quick search of the British Newspaper Archives turns up a number of references to a Lionel Gartside appearing on the stage in various productions in the immediate pre-war period, as well as a possible marriage to a Miss Edwards in early 1915. Whether the actor is the same as the soldier remains to be seen, however the newspaper description of the musical interlude 'The Blue Knuts' that was presented on 1 December 1914 found on the webpage below would suggest that they are highly likely to be the same man.

http://wetherbywarmemorial.com/id19.html

30 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

From an ancestry tree Peter containing Lionel Gartside DSO , all his details match up to what you have suggested in your post and a better picture confirms your picture.

 

Thanks @Tawhiri, thanks @Bob Davies

Here's take 2 on the West Yorks officers,

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 31 January by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

Thanks @Tawhiri, thanks @Bob Davies

Here's take 2 on the West Yorks officers,

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

An even clearer match to officer at right Peter👍

[Bob Davies]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

Thanks @Tawhiri, thanks @Bob Davies

Here's take 2 on the West Yorks officers,

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

From the family tree I looked at his Uncle is or was an actor, so it must run in the family @Tawhiri

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Gartside_Neville

[PRC]

Happiness is a numbered group photo – I really must get out more

I used my old software auto-repair function to see what it could do and while the end result won’t win any awards, along with some judicious number placing, it will hopefully lessen the immediate visual impact of the damage.

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

So if I’ve understood the postings so far:-

6] Either Lt. Aiden Isaac Bell or Lt. George Pinckard Lathbury, RMLI.
10] Lt. Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins, 2^nd Bn. West Yorkshire Regiment.
11] Lt. Lionel Gartside, 3^rd Bn. West Yorkshire Regiment.
12] Lt. Samuel Alwynne Gabb, 3^rd Bn. Worcestershire Regiment.
14] Either Lt. Aiden Isaac Bell or Lt. George Pinckard Lathbury, RMLI.
19]??? Lt John Clive Darling, 20^th Hussars???? – have I got the right location?
25] Capt.. Champion de Crespigny, 3^rd  Bn. Wiltshire Regiment.
26] Lt. Claude Boy Adams, 3^rd Bn. South Staffordshire Regiment.
29] Lt. Samuel Gordon Johnson, 2^nd Bn. South Staffordshire Regiment.
41] Edit 40] Lt. Thomas Hesketh Douglas Blair, Lord Cochrane, 2^nd Bn. Scots Guards. (see later posts)

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 1 February by PRC
Hands up, my error in keying in wrong number

[Bob Davies]

Here is Aiden Issac Bell (Edit here. There is an OBE after his name in 1928) from an ancestry tree that seems on the face of it to match up with who we have.

Father is Charles Ernest Bell 1850 - 1940. Mother is Mary Salvin 1853 - 1940.

Wife is Eleanor Christina Dove 1886 - 1963.

40 minutes ago, PRC said:

Happiness is a numbered group photo – I really must get out more

Great job Peter, thanks, I like a numbered page

Picture courtesy of Ancestry . co .uk.

Edited 31 January by Bob Davies
to add a bit

[Bob Davies]

Here is a link to a site showing a picture of Lt. George Pinckard Lathburys Father. https://www.denhamhistory.online/post/denham-s-history-man

Screenshot courtesy of that site.

The reverend Robert Henry Lathbury, born in 1845 in Stony Stratford.

It tells of the 'Pinckard' name.

Regards, Bob.

 

[Tawhiri]

36 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

(Edit here. There is an OBE after his name in 1928)

Awarded on 11 August 1919 for valuable services as a Naval Intelligence Officer at Callao, Peru.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31499/page/10198

Edited 31 January by Tawhiri

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

41] Lt. Thomas Hesketh Douglas Blair, Lord Cochrane, 2^nd Bn. Scots Guards

I would have thought that he should be number 40, Peter.

Scots Guards having a check band around the cap.

homas Hesketh Douglas Blair  Lord Cochrane,  Lt  2nd  Scots Guards is here on Wikipedia, screenshot courtesy of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cochrane,_13th_Earl_of_Dundonald

 

Regards Bob.

18 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Awarded on 11 August 1919 for valuable services as a Naval Intelligence Officer at Callao, Peru.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31499/page/10198

Thanks Tawhiri, useful to know.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

I would have thought that he should be number 40, Peter.

He is indeed - slip of the fat finger on my part. Half my two brain cells were focused on what I was going to be cooking for dinner tonight.

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Here is Aiden Issac Bell (Edit here. There is an OBE after his name in 1928) from an ancestry tree that seems on the face of it to match up with who we have.

Good find Bob. I've put the two RMLI officers either side and oddly it wasn't quite as clear-cut as I thought it was going to be. I think I'm still going for number 14 but down to bottom lip and the way his left ear bends out at the top. Things like eyebrows and the droop of their right eyes vary by degree rather than being completely different. Chin should have been the clincher, but because of the angle and the expression the man in the Ancestry sourced picture looks different to either RMLI officer.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, PRC said:

He is indeed - slip of the fat finger on my part. Half my two brain cells were focused on what I was going to be cooking for dinner tonight.

Good find Bob. I've put the two RMLI officers either side and oddly it wasn't quite as clear-cut as I thought it was going to be. I think I'm still going for number 14 but down to bottom lip and the way his left ear bends out at the top. Things like eyebrows and the droop of their right eyes vary by degree rather than being completely different. Chin should have been the clincher, but because of the angle and the expression the man in the Ancestry sourced picture looks different to either RMLI officer.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

I think you’re bang on the money with No 14 Peter.  The jawline, nose, eye sockets and visible ear all match perfectly.  Excellent spot.  You’re getting very good at this.

[Bob Davies]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

He is indeed - slip of the fat finger on my part. Half my two brain cells were focused on what I was going to be cooking for dinner tonight.

Good find Bob. I've put the two RMLI officers either side and oddly it wasn't quite as clear-cut as I thought it was going to be. I think I'm still going for number 14 but down to bottom lip and the way his left ear bends out at the top. Things like eyebrows and the droop of their right eyes vary by degree rather than being completely different. Chin should have been the clincher, but because of the angle and the expression the man in the Ancestry sourced picture looks different to either RMLI officer.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Spot on Peter, the mustache leaving the middle of the top lip exposed, the eye droop, bendy ear, it all points to number 14.

Number 6s face is too long.

Thanks for the side by side views.

Regards, Bob.

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

I would have thought that he should be number 40, Peter.

Scots Guards having a check band around the cap.

To make up for my faux pas I tried having a search for more images. Wikipedia had him as educated at Eton but the College digital archive doesn't appear to have any pictures of him.  The image attached to the Wikipedia page is dated to the 21st February 1911 and comes from a session at The Lafayette Studio. The source is a website dedicated to images from the studio, and as well as the widely used full length portrait, that website also has a high quality facial image. Scouring around the internet I also turn up a picture of him playing golf at Le Touquet in 1932, which is at the opposite end of quality. I suspect there will be more images available on the likes of the British Newspaper Archive.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Sources.
February 1911. http://lafayette.org.uk/coc6783a.html

May 1932. https://www.imago-images.com/st/0059968459?__hstc=52317686.4b44870ec4a577029c49e44b73bd3bee.1658620800251.1658620800252.1658620800253.1&__hssc=52317686.1.1658620800254&__hsfp=2360849794

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 31 January by PRC
Typo

[Bob Davies]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

To make up for my faux pas I tried having a search for more images. Wikipedia had him as educated at Eton but the College digital archive doesn't appear to have any pictures of him.  The image attached to the Wikipedia page is dated to the 21st February 1911 and comes from a session at The Lafayette Studio. The source is a website dedicated to images from the studio, and as well as the widely used full length portrait, that website also has a high quality facial image. Scouring around the internet I also turn up a picture of him playing golf at Le Touquet in 1932, which is at the opposite end of quality. I suspect there will be more images available on the likes of the British Newspaper Archive.

Thanks Peter, we cannot hold that against you, cookhouse duties outweigh a number on here.

Getting your family fed and watered keeps you going too

@mrfrank  I found another candidate, Lt Edmund  Antrobus Grenadier Guards.

KIA. 24th October 1914 he is remembered on the Menin Gate.

Son of Sir Edmund Antrobus, 4th Bart., of Antrobus, Cheshire.

Screenshot courtesy of https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/history-and-stories/history/soldiers-at-stonehenge/

Screenshot courtesy of https://www.cheshireroll.co.uk/soldier/?i=7167

There is quite a lot of information about him on various web sites.

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/100868

Officer number 33 is my first option for facial features. @FROGSMILEif I may call on your expertise please for help with the presumably blue uniform that Officer 33 is wearing.

Is that a typical Grenadier Guards uniform of the time?

Regards, Bob.

Edited 1 February by Bob Davies
to add some more

[mrfrank]

I have Edmund Antrobus down as being #17 per Peter’s schematic. Full rundown per numbering to follow……

[Bob Davies]

6 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

I have Edmund Antrobus down as being #17 per Peter’s schematic. Full rundown per numbering to follow……

Thank you mrfrank, I look forward to seeing that.

Interestingly, number 17 was my other option but I felt that number 33 looked more like him.

He is mentioned in this book page 116;

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209436/page/n161/mode/2up?q=Antrobus

There is an old post here on the forum about him, here;

 

 

Regards, Bob.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Lt Edmund  Antrobus Grenadier Guards.

According to his timeline on Lives of the First World War he is another one who attended Eton College, but once again I've drawn a blank with finding any images of him in the College Digital Archive, although there are pictures of his father, (who died in 1915) and his uncle who consequently inherited the estate and title as a result of the prior death of Edmund.

If a side by side helps at all, here is the best I could do with the images sourced from Cheshire Roll and English Heritage.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, PRC said:

According to his timeline on Lives of the First World War he is another one who attended Eton College, but once again I've drawn a blank with finding any images of him in the College Digital Archive, although there are pictures of his father, (who died in 1915) and his uncle who consequently inherited the estate and title as a result of the prior death of Edmund.

If a side by side helps at all, here is the best I could do with the images sourced from Cheshire Roll and English Heritage.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Good match between all three images Peter 👍

[PRC]

On 30/01/2024 at 18:15, mrfrank said:

John Clive Darling - 4th row, 4th from left. 

Still struggling with this. If it's fouth row from the front then that would make him officer 19 with the numbering I've applied. @Bob Davies has sourced a picture of John Clive Darling, (and there is a much lower quality one at the same location). But I'm struggling to see a similarity and the more I look at officer 19 the more discrepancies I see with the 20th Hussars Cap and Collar Badges.

The panel posted below features from left to right:-

Officer 19 sourced from the close up of the two West Yorkshire Regiment officers
A studio photograph of a 20th Hussars Officer who died in WW1 sourced from the Imperial War Museum - face obscured as it is the uniform details that are being used for comparison. https://media.iwm.org.uk/pdm/ciim-media/58/912/912/mid_58912912.jpg
Great War era 20th Hussars capbadge sourced Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Hussars

So the question is - is Officer 19 serving with the 20th Hussars?

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

This is what I have thus far with your assistance, cap badges and process of elimination:

1 - Boyle [KiA 18Oct14]

2 - Courtenay [KiA 23Aug18]

3 - Cranko

4 - Currie

5 - Burn or Garland (NZ Staff Corps) [Garland on CWGC died 08Nov42]

6 - Lathbury

7 - Burn or Garland (NZ Staff Corps)

8 - Bennett

9 - Baillie-Hamilton

10 - Hawkins

11 - Gartside

12 - Gabb

13 - Hall

14 - Bell

15 - Arnold [Died 23Apr15]

16 - Clutterbuck

17 - Antrobus [KiA 24Oct14]

18 - Forestier-Walker

19 - Darling

20 - Blount Dinwiddie

21 - Gerard [KiA 03May17]

22 - Faulknor [Died of wounds 25Sep15]

23 - Huntington

24 - Bovill

25 - Champion de Crespigny

26 - Adams

27 - Aylmer

28 - Jackson

29 - Johnson

30 - Kenny

31 - Brownfield [KiA 18Dec14]

32 - Dimsdale [KiA 08May15]

33 - Gough

34 - Blencowe

35 - Elliott

36 - Forsyth [KiA 14Sep16]

37 - Frizell

38 - Major Brandreth [KiA 06Jun15]

39 - Forbes

40 - Cochrane

41 - Cunninghame

46 - Case