mrfrank Posted 30 January Share Posted 30 January (edited) Bought this damaged photo recently and have been trying to identify those present with the aid of the School of Musketry student logs on The Ogilby Muster. The squads were allocated by Surname alphabetically so 1-6 should be composed of the first half of the roll. I have managed to identify the majority via cap badges, but I have six yet to identify so if anyone can give me any pointers then I’d be grateful. Here’s the group photo and then those six individuals to follow………. Edited 30 January by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 January Author Share Posted 30 January Two West Yorkshire Regiment officers standing next to each other to centre of this image. Two named on the roll are Lt Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins (2nd Bn) and Lt Lionel Gartside (3rd Bn). Anyone able to identify which is which? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 January Author Share Posted 30 January (edited) Two RMLI officers. Again two named on the roll as Lt Aiden Isaac Bell & Lt George Pinckard Lathbury. Edited 30 January by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 January Author Share Posted 30 January Two South Staffs officers to either side of this image. Again two names - Lt Samuel Gordon Johnson (2nd Bn) and Lt Claude Boys Adams (3rd Bn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 January Author Share Posted 30 January (edited) For info and future searches, I believe the following are present in this photograph. If anyone requires a crop of a particular individual then please PM me: Claude Boys Adams, Lt 3rd South Staffs Edmund Antrobus, Lt 1st Grenadier Guards. Karl Ferdinand Franck William Arnold, 1st Suffolk Regiment John Wyndham Aylmer Lt 4th Dragoon Guards Neil Alexander Buchanan Baillie-Hamilton, Capt 1st Royal Highlanders Aidan Isaac Bell Lt RMLI Robert Harley Egerton Bennet Lt, 1st Somerset LI E. Prowett Blencowe Capt, ASC John Blount Dinwiddie Lt, ASC Anthony Charles Stevens Bovill Lt, 9th Lancers Hon. James Boyle Lt, 2nd R Scots Fusiliers Reginald John Brownfield, Lt 3rd Royal Warwickshire Regiment AH Burn, Lt., N. Zealand SC Horace Akroyd Case, Capt 1st Dorsetshire Regiment - Failed Claude Vierville Champion de Crespigny, Capt, 3rd Wiltshire Regiment Thomas Rupert Clutterbuck Lt 1st Coldstream Guards Thomas Hesketh Douglas Blair Lord Cochrane, Lt 2nd Scots Guards Hugh Courtenay Lt 1st Bedfordshire Regiment Albert Christian Weiss Cranko Lt 1st West India Regiment William Wallace Smith Cunninghame, Lt 2nd Life Gds TC Currie Lt., Cheltenham College OTC John Clive Darling Lt 20th Hussars Edward Charles Dimsdale Lt 6th Rifle Brigade G R Elliott Lt., 3 Dragoon Guards Robert Sylvester John Faulknor Lt 1st Loyal North Lancs Ronald Foster Forbes Lt 3rd Highland Light Edmund Alec Forestier-Walker, Lt 1st Cheshire Regiment Cusack Grant Forsyth Lt 2nd Yorkshire Regiment Charles William Frizell, Lt 1st Royal Berkshire Samuel Alwyne Gabb Lt 3rd Worcestershire Regiment Harold Lloyd de Forge Garland Lt New Zealand Staff Corps Lionel Gartside Lt 3rd West Yorkshire Regiment Gilbert Meade Gerard Lt 2nd Highland Light Infantry Guy Vincent Hugh Gough Lt 1st KRRC E V Hall Lt 3rd East Lancashire Regiment Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins Lt 2nd West Yorkshire Regiment Herbert Francis Searancke Huntington Lt 2nd Welsh Regiment Charles . Bramwell Armitage Jackson 2nd York and Lancs Samuel Gordon Johnson Lt 2nd South Staffs Bertram Maurice Kenny Lt 1st Royal West Surrey George Pinckard Lathbury, RMLI Lyall Brandreth, 2nd Royal Fusiliers and SoM staff Edited 30 January by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January (edited) This could well be 'Samuel Alwyne Gabb Lt 3rd Worcestershire Regiment' Screenshot courtesy of http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/o_gabb We just have to match him to a face on your picture. Edit; I would need enlarged pictures to be able to see the cap badges please @mrfrank. Edited 30 January by Bob Davies to add some.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January A picture of Claude Vierville Champion de Crespigny, Capt, 3rd Wiltshire Regiment can be found here; https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=406 Death Date: 17 July 1927 Singida, Tanganyika, having been badly mauled by a leopard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January John Clive Darling can be found here;https://horsepowermuseum.co.uk/regimental-brooches/ Screenshot courtesy of the same site. He wrote a book I was reading the other day. https://archive.org/details/20thhussarsgtwar/page/n7/mode/2up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January Thomas Hesketh Douglas Blair Lord Cochrane, Lt 2nd Scots Guards is here on Wikipedia, screenshot courtesy of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cochrane,_13th_Earl_of_Dundonald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 January Author Share Posted 30 January Thanks for the replies Bob. I have the following: Samuel Alwyne Gabb as being in the 2nd row from the back, 4th in from the right. Champion de Crespigny - 3rd row. 2nd from left with pipe in mouth. John Clive Darling - 4th row, 4th from left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 30 January Share Posted 30 January (edited) 2 hours ago, mrfrank said: George Pinckard Lathbury As well as winning a Distinguished Service Cross at Gallipolli in 1915 as a Captain https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29423/supplement/89/data.pdf George would also marry a Winifred Dove in the St George Hanover Square District in Q4 1915. The newspaper reporting unfortunately for this purpose is muted, with more coverage of the couples engagement than the quiet wedding that followed. (British Newspaper Archive). It looks like the couple subsequently divorced, as a Mrs Winifred Lathbury, daughter of a Mr and Mrs Dove, marries in 1927. Major George Pinckard Lathbury, D.S.C., R.M., (retired) would himself marry again to a woman scientist regarded as so important by H.M. Government that the Civil Service expressly put aside it's requirement for woman in such positions to resign their post on marriage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Culhane_Lathbury Until I can get into the library I can't check out the newspaper reporting of the 2nd marriage from the British Newspaper Archive, but from the thumbnails there are potentially some pictures of the wedding couple. Both images courtesy The British Newspaper Archive. Cheers, Peter Edited 30 January by PRC Typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January 2 hours ago, mrfrank said: Lt Claude Boys Adams (3rd Bn) There is a small web page about his family, it says about him courtesy of https://wolverhamptonswar.wordpress.com/tag/pendeford-hall/ There is more about his family if you click the link. No obvious picture. A Lieutenant and later a Captain in the South Staffordshire Regiment, Claude Boys Adams went missing on 30 October 1914, and was captured as a prisoner of war. His prisoner of war records confirm he was captured at Landvoorde and was initially held at Pieter Maritzburg. He was repatriated on 22 November 1918. Kenneth became a Lieutenant and later a Major in the Royal Engineers. After the war, he married American Janice Horne, and they had three children. He died in Ludlow in 1979 aged 91 years. Wilmot served with the West Yorkshire Regiment (number 6), the Lancashire Fusiliers (number 60533) and the Labour Corps (number 511199). He married Enid Carnegy-Arbuthnott in 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 30 January Share Posted 30 January (edited) George Pinckard Lathbury, born 5th September 1883, attended Charterhouse School between 1898 and 1901, joining the Royal Marines in 1902. https://archive.org/details/charterhouseregi02charuoft/page/628/mode/2up?q=Lathbury When the 1901 Census of England & Wales was taken on the 31st March 1911, the 17 year old George P. Lathbury, born Denham, Middlesex, was still recorded as a student at the school. If anyone has access to the Charterhouse School Digital Archive then they may have a more contemporary picture of him than the potential ones from the 1933 wedding. https://www.charterhousearchives.org.uk/ Cheers, Peter Edited 30 January by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January (edited) We have a Capt S G Johnson 2nd South Staffs, in this book. We may need computer image expert @PRC to make it bigger and the right way up, if you would do us a favor please Peter. Page 240. plate 14. Edit; Screenshot courtesy of... https://archive.org/details/southstaffordshirereg/page/n297/mode/2up Edited 30 January by Bob Davies to add a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January 6 hours ago, mrfrank said: Lt Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins Using google searching as a start, I am being sent in the direction of OBE awards 1931 Wikipedia. Half way down the page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931_Birthday_Honours Major (local Lieutenant-Colonel) Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins, DSO, The West Yorkshire Regiment (The Prince of Wales's Own), Officer Commanding, 1st (Nyasaland) Battalion, The King's African Rifles. Then to here, https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/out-on-a-limb-the-road-through-tunduru-german-east-africa-may-to-november-1917/ Approx 3/4 of the way down the page, look for the word Aftermath in bold type. 'Major Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins had carried out his orders to the letter. He also received an immediate award of the Distinguished Service Order: For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Boldly attacking a superior enemy force, he inflicted severe casualties on them, thus diverting them from their objective, and being instrumental in causing their subsequent surrender. He has at all times shown the greatest courage and initiative, and has afforded a most inspiring example to the troops under him. The aftermath' Then courtesy Internet archive; MAJOR EDWARD BRIAN BARKLEY HAWKINS: D.S.O.; The P.W.O. West Yorkshire Regiment, York; Local Lt.-Col. commanding 1st Batt. the King’s African Rifles, Zomba, Nyasaland; s. of Edward Hawkins; served in Uganda, British East Africa, German East Africa, Portuguese East Africa, Nyasaland, N. Rhodesia H.B.M.’s Consul for Southwestern Ethiopia. https://archive.org/details/hawkinsfamilyrec00seav/page/n51/mode/2up?q=Edward No pictures are forthcoming yet. Regards, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 January Author Share Posted 30 January Thanks Bob & Pete for the added information. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 30 January Share Posted 30 January 6 hours ago, mrfrank said: Two South Staffs officers to either side of this image. Again two names - Lt Samuel Gordon Johnson (2nd Bn) and Lt Claude Boys Adams (3rd Bn). 2 hours ago, Bob Davies said: We have a Capt S G Johnson 2nd South Staffs, in this book. Page 240. plate 14. Edit; Screenshot courtesy of...https://archive.org/details/southstaffordshirereg/page/n297/mode/2up On the British Army Monthly List for August 1914 S.G. Johnson is shown as a Captain with the 2nd Battalion with seniority from the 1st January 1913, (so after the 279th Party), while C.B. Adams is shown as a Lieutenant with the 1st Battalion. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103631918 2 hours ago, Bob Davies said: We may need computer image expert No expertise, just mug enough to have a go There is not a great deal of pixels to go on with the picture of the 2nd Battalion Officers at Aldershot, and the presence of a moustache on the officer I believe is Captain S.G. Johnson may be misleading when it comes to working out which one he was on the 1911 picture. Given the number of small blemishes across the picture I believe the black dot on the face of the right hand South Staffs Officer in the School of Musketry picture is just another one - rather than a facial feature - so I've removed it. Apologies if that turns out to be an error, but as Captain Johnson has a moustache covering the relevant area it shouldn't make any difference in comparing these three images. No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Ignoring the moustache, (which is a different shape anyway), my money would be the South Staffords Officer on the right. Eye socket shape, (including his drooping right eye), nose and chin shape and overall proportions of face lead me to that conclusion. The jury is out on the ears - both of the officers in the 1911 picture appear to have different left and right ears. Captain Johnson appears to have one from each, but that could in part be due to his stance. Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 30 January Admin Share Posted 30 January 12 minutes ago, PRC said: On the British Army Monthly List for August 1914 S.G. Johnson is shown as a Captain with the 2nd Battalion with seniority from the 1st January 1913, (so after the 279th Party), while C.B. Adams is shown as a Lieutenant with the 1st Battalion. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103631918 No expertise, just mug enough to have a go There is not a great deal of pixels to go on with the picture of the 2nd Battalion Officers at Aldershot, and the presence of a moustache on the officer I believe is Captain S.G. Johnson may be misleading when it comes to working out which one he was on the 1911 picture. Given the number of small blemishes across the picture I believe the black dot on the face of the right hand South Staffs Officer in the School of Musketry picture is just another one - rather than a facial feature - so I've removed it. Apologies if that turns out to be an error, but as Captain Johnson has a moustache covering the relevant area it shouldn't make any difference in comparing these three images. No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. Ignoring the moustache, (which is a different shape anyway), my money would be the South Staffords Officer on the right. Eye socket shape, (including his drooping right eye), nose and chin shape and overall proportions of face lead me to that conclusion. The jury is out on the ears - both of the officers in the 1911 picture appear to have different left and right ears. Captain Johnson appears to have one from each, but that could in part be due to his stance. Hope that helps, Peter Thank you Peter, your 'have a go mug shots' I believe have helped. I will bet my rum ration with you, that the South Staffs Officer on the right is our man. In both pictures his cap is at an angle, whereas the Officer on the right is straight as a die with no neck and very determined. Bottom lip distance to bottom of chin cannot be altered by facial expression. Bulldog on the left, I am certain is not the athletic hound on the right. So, I think that if the 2ndBatt Officer from the book picture is the correct man, he is not the Officer on the left. Most probably the Officer on the right. Others may shoot me down. @FROGSMILE What say you Sir? Regards, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 31 January Share Posted 31 January 9 hours ago, mrfrank said: Two West Yorkshire Regiment officers standing next to each other to centre of this image. Two named on the roll are Lt Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins (2nd Bn) and Lt Lionel Gartside (3rd Bn). The birth an Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins, mothers’ maiden name Barkley, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bury St Edmunds District, Suffolk, in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1890. On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 1 year old Edward B.B. Hawkins, born Bury St Edmunds, who was recorded living at 84 Eastgate Street, Bury St. Edmunds. This was the household of his parents Edward Ras(?) Hawkins, (aged 40, a Magistrate, living on own means, born Leigh, Essex), and Kate Clyde Hawkins, (age unclear, born Sheerness, Kent). Supporting the three of them there is then three live in servants. There is no obvious match for the family members on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 21 year old unmarried Lieutenant Edward Hawkins, born Bury St. Edmunds, who was recorded in barracks at Circular Road, Colchester, with the 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment. His father Edward were recorded living at The Leylands, Cliff Avenue, Cromer, Norfolk. He lives there with his new wife of six years, Ethel Miriam Hawkins, (31) and their two children, plus a son from his previous marriage, Geoffrey Eden Hawkins, aged 18 and born Bury St. Edmunds. I’ve not come across anything so far for Lieutenant Hawkins in the Norfolk newspapers. He would receive a DSO serving in East Africa in the fight in the Ngurumahiga Valley in 1917. “For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Boldly attacking a superior enemy force, he inflicted severe casualties on them, thus diverting them from their objective, and being instrumental in causing their subsequent surrender. He has at all times shown the greatest courage and initiative, and has afforded a most inspiring example to the troops under him.” https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/out-on-a-limb-the-road-through-tunduru-german-east-africa-may-to-november-1917/ May be a co-incidence but the same piece adds “Shorthose's advance guard commander was Lieutenant G E Hawkins (Royal Berkshire Regiment) of No 2 Company with No 8 Platoon and two Lewis guns. Geoffrey Eden Hawkins was soon involved in a fight for which he was awarded the Military Cross” Edward would carry on serving between the wars, reaching the rank of Major-General in WW2. https://generals.dk/general/Hawkins/Edward_Brian_Barkley/Great_Britain.html No obvious Medal Index Card so I don’t have an address for him from that source, The National Army Museum has his papers and maps relating to his service in East Africa in 1916-17 with the Kings African Rifles. https://collection.nam.ac.uk/inventory/objects/results.php?shortDescription=&event=&campaign=&associatedName=&unit=west%20yorkshire%20regiment&placeNotes=&productionNotes=&keyword=&flag=2&page=1 But no picture. Turning to Lieutenant Lionel Gartside the first thing I found on line is that he resigned his commission on the 17th April 1912. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28599/page/2705/data.pdf But in 1916 as a Temporary Captain it looks like the same man was recorded transferring from the West Yorkshire Regiment to the Highland Light Infantry. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29465/supplement/1457/data.pdf No obvious birth in England & Wales. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Lionel Gartside, born Glasgow, recorded as a Pupil at Brunswick (Young Gentleman’s School) at Haywards Heath, Sussex. The West Sussex Archives do apparently have some records - it was a prep school from 1896-1938. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4302f035-643b-4b8f-a0ce-34094727967a An Ancestry tree has a picture of a Lieutenant Lionel Gartside, but as I can’t see the tree I have no way of knowing if it relates to the officer we are interested in. So unless someone can source a better version of the picture from Ancestry and confirm the (basic) details held in the family tree, here is the best I can do. No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. My best guess, if the Ancestry picture is of the right Lionel Gartside, would be a match for the officer on the right. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 31 January Share Posted 31 January (edited) 2 hours ago, PRC said: On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Lionel Gartside, born Glasgow, recorded as a Pupil at Brunswick (Young Gentleman’s School) at Haywards Heath, Sussex. ScotlandsPeople has the birth of a Lionel Gartside registered in 1887 in the Kelvin registration district, which would be Glasgow. GARTSIDE LIONEL M 1887 644 / 9 / 307 Kelvin Lionel Gartside was subsequently awarded the Distinguished Service Order while serving as an Acting Lieutenant-Colonel with the HLI, the citation being published in the Gazette of 15 October 1918. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30950/supplement/12053 He was originally commissioned to the Unattached List on 6 July 1908, subsequently being augmented to the Prince of Wale's Own (West Yorkshire Regiment) later that year, but with pay and allowances only dating from 11 August 1909. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28172/page/6305 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28278/page/6090 It appears he returned as an officer on 22 September 1914, with an appointment as Captain to the 3rd Battalion of his old regiment. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28909/supplement/7471 I would note that a quick search of the British Newspaper Archives turns up a number of references to a Lionel Gartside appearing on the stage in various productions in the immediate pre-war period, as well as a possible marriage to a Miss Edwards in early 1915. Whether the actor is the same as the soldier remains to be seen, however the newspaper description of the musical interlude 'The Blue Knuts' that was presented on 1 December 1914 found on the webpage below would suggest that they are highly likely to be the same man. http://wetherbywarmemorial.com/id19.html Edited 31 January by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 January Share Posted 31 January (edited) 8 hours ago, Bob Davies said: Thank you Peter, your 'have a go mug shots' I believe have helped. I will bet my rum ration with you, that the South Staffs Officer on the right is our man. In both pictures his cap is at an angle, whereas the Officer on the right is straight as a die with no neck and very determined. Bottom lip distance to bottom of chin cannot be altered by facial expression. Bulldog on the left, I am certain is not the athletic hound on the right. So, I think that if the 2ndBatt Officer from the book picture is the correct man, he is not the Officer on the left. Most probably the Officer on the right. Others may shoot me down. @FROGSMILE What say you Sir? Regards, Bob. I agree with Peter and your good self in your compelling selection of the officer on the right being the correct match Bob. Edited 31 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 January Share Posted 31 January 7 hours ago, PRC said: The birth an Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins, mothers’ maiden name Barkley, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bury St Edmunds District, Suffolk, in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1890. On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 1 year old Edward B.B. Hawkins, born Bury St Edmunds, who was recorded living at 84 Eastgate Street, Bury St. Edmunds. This was the household of his parents Edward Ras(?) Hawkins, (aged 40, a Magistrate, living on own means, born Leigh, Essex), and Kate Clyde Hawkins, (age unclear, born Sheerness, Kent). Supporting the three of them there is then three live in servants. There is no obvious match for the family members on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 21 year old unmarried Lieutenant Edward Hawkins, born Bury St. Edmunds, who was recorded in barracks at Circular Road, Colchester, with the 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment. His father Edward were recorded living at The Leylands, Cliff Avenue, Cromer, Norfolk. He lives there with his new wife of six years, Ethel Miriam Hawkins, (31) and their two children, plus a son from his previous marriage, Geoffrey Eden Hawkins, aged 18 and born Bury St. Edmunds. I’ve not come across anything so far for Lieutenant Hawkins in the Norfolk newspapers. He would receive a DSO serving in East Africa in the fight in the Ngurumahiga Valley in 1917. “For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Boldly attacking a superior enemy force, he inflicted severe casualties on them, thus diverting them from their objective, and being instrumental in causing their subsequent surrender. He has at all times shown the greatest courage and initiative, and has afforded a most inspiring example to the troops under him.” https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/out-on-a-limb-the-road-through-tunduru-german-east-africa-may-to-november-1917/ May be a co-incidence but the same piece adds “Shorthose's advance guard commander was Lieutenant G E Hawkins (Royal Berkshire Regiment) of No 2 Company with No 8 Platoon and two Lewis guns. Geoffrey Eden Hawkins was soon involved in a fight for which he was awarded the Military Cross” Edward would carry on serving between the wars, reaching the rank of Major-General in WW2. https://generals.dk/general/Hawkins/Edward_Brian_Barkley/Great_Britain.html No obvious Medal Index Card so I don’t have an address for him from that source, The National Army Museum has his papers and maps relating to his service in East Africa in 1916-17 with the Kings African Rifles. https://collection.nam.ac.uk/inventory/objects/results.php?shortDescription=&event=&campaign=&associatedName=&unit=west%20yorkshire%20regiment&placeNotes=&productionNotes=&keyword=&flag=2&page=1 But no picture. Turning to Lieutenant Lionel Gartside the first thing I found on line is that he resigned his commission on the 17th April 1912. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28599/page/2705/data.pdf But in 1916 as a Temporary Captain it looks like the same man was recorded transferring from the West Yorkshire Regiment to the Highland Light Infantry. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29465/supplement/1457/data.pdf No obvious birth in England & Wales. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Lionel Gartside, born Glasgow, recorded as a Pupil at Brunswick (Young Gentleman’s School) at Haywards Heath, Sussex. The West Sussex Archives do apparently have some records - it was a prep school from 1896-1938. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4302f035-643b-4b8f-a0ce-34094727967a An Ancestry tree has a picture of a Lieutenant Lionel Gartside, but as I can’t see the tree I have no way of knowing if it relates to the officer we are interested in. So unless someone can source a better version of the picture from Ancestry and confirm the (basic) details held in the family tree, here is the best I can do. No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners. My best guess, if the Ancestry picture is of the right Lionel Gartside, would be a match for the officer on the right. Cheers, Peter Once again agreed Peter, your case is very thorough and convincing in all respects. The side-by-side presentation is always a great help too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 January Share Posted 31 January 17 hours ago, mrfrank said: Bought this damaged photo recently and have been trying to identify those present with the aid of the School of Musketry student logs on The Ogilby Muster. The squads were allocated by Surname alphabetically so 1-6 should be composed of the first half of the roll. I have managed to identify the majority via cap badges, but I have six yet to identify so if anyone can give me any pointers then I’d be grateful. Here’s the group photo and then those six individuals to follow………. Thank you for posting this interesting course photograph mrfrank, I’m always especially thrilled to see them as you know. They often reveal a great deal about regimental dress and changes that occurred over time. A sort of historical weather gauge if you will. Those from the turn of the century are even better as they frequently illustrate the transition from coloured undress to drab khaki following the 2nd Boer War. I participated in similar course photos, in terms of layout, throughout the decade of the 1980s and when they are examined one day by historians of military dress they will have a lot less to look at beyond the cap badges and headdress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 31 January Author Share Posted 31 January Thanks everyone - your assistance has proved to be as invaluable as always. I have one general question with regard to the roll for this particular party, but applies to other parties and courses of the time. Lts TG Hetherington (18th Hussars) & The Hon ROD Keppel (3rd Coldstream Guards) should feature in this image, but do not. Their entries in the School course rolls have the annotation in red 'Failed entrance exam'. Anyone any idea what this exam entailed and as to whether it was sat prior to arriving at the School? Thanks again! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 January Share Posted 31 January (edited) 16 minutes ago, mrfrank said: Thanks everyone - your assistance has proved to be as invaluable as always. I have one general question with regard to the roll for this particular party, but applies to other parties and courses of the time. Lts TG Hetherington (18th Hussars) & The Hon ROD Keppel (3rd Coldstream Guards) should feature in this image, but do not. Their entries in the School course rolls have the annotation in red 'Failed entrance exam'. Anyone any idea what this exam entailed and as to whether it was sat prior to arriving at the School? Thanks again! Mike The exams were usually taken on arrival I believe, as it wasn’t feasible to send them out to all of the widely dispersed stations of those times and guarantee receipt. Failure of the examination, which usually occurred on day one (a sort of entrance test), usually entailed immediate return to unit (RTU). The tests were generally a little dreaded by all but the most obtuse characters, as there was inevitably a loss of face and ignominy back in the parent unit. For the musketry course the entrance examination usually entailed a good knowledge of what every junior cavalry and infantry officer was expected to have learned from the musketry staff of his regiment/battalion. This staff generally comprised of the battalion adjutant, who was usually dual roled to be the battalion musketry officer via possession of a certificate from Hythe’s School of Musketry, plus perhaps more practically the Sergeant Instructor of Musketry (colour sergeant after around 1902 I think). Typical subjects were the listed principles of musketry, details of rifle velocity, windage, trajectory, judging distance and sight setting. If these basics had not been mastered already then it was felt that the student would be wasting the school’s instructional staff’s time. Edited 31 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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