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Remembered Today:

Officers, 279th Party, School of Musketry Photograph


mrfrank

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Bought this damaged photo recently and have been trying to identify those present with the aid of the School of Musketry student logs on The Ogilby Muster. The squads were allocated by Surname alphabetically so 1-6 should be composed of the first half of the roll. I have managed to identify the majority via cap badges, but I have six yet to identify so if anyone can give me any pointers then I’d be grateful. Here’s the group photo and then those six individuals to follow……….

 

IMG_3886.jpeg

Edited by mrfrank
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Two West Yorkshire Regiment officers standing next to each other to centre of this image. Two named on the roll are Lt Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins (2nd Bn) and Lt Lionel Gartside (3rd Bn). Anyone able to identify which is which? 
 

 

IMG_3887.jpeg

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Two RMLI officers. Again two named on the roll as Lt Aiden Isaac Bell & Lt George Pinckard Lathbury.

 

IMG_3888.jpeg

Edited by mrfrank
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Two South Staffs officers to either side of this image. Again two names - Lt Samuel Gordon Johnson (2nd Bn) and Lt Claude Boys Adams (3rd Bn). 
 

 

IMG_3889.jpeg

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For info and future searches, I believe the following are present in this photograph. If anyone requires a crop of a particular individual then please PM me: 

Claude Boys  Adams,  Lt 3rd  South Staffs  

Edmund  Antrobus, Lt 1st Grenadier Guards.

Karl Ferdinand Franck William  Arnold, 1st  Suffolk Regiment  

John Wyndham Aylmer  Lt 4th  Dragoon Guards  

Neil Alexander Buchanan  Baillie-Hamilton, Capt  1st  Royal Highlanders  

Aidan Isaac Bell Lt RMLI   

Robert Harley Egerton Bennet Lt, 1st  Somerset LI  

E. Prowett  Blencowe  Capt,  ASC

John Blount Dinwiddie Lt, ASC

Anthony Charles Stevens Bovill  Lt,  9th  Lancers 

Hon. James Boyle  Lt,  2nd  R Scots Fusiliers

Reginald John Brownfield,  Lt 3rd  Royal Warwickshire Regiment 

AH Burn, Lt., N. Zealand SC

Horace Akroyd  Case,  Capt 1st  Dorsetshire Regiment - Failed

Claude Vierville Champion de Crespigny,  Capt, 3rd Wiltshire Regiment

Thomas Rupert  Clutterbuck  Lt 1st  Coldstream Guards  

Thomas Hesketh Douglas Blair  Lord Cochrane,  Lt  2nd  Scots Guards 

Hugh Courtenay  Lt  1st Bedfordshire  Regiment

Albert Christian Weiss  Cranko Lt  1st  West India Regiment

William Wallace Smith Cunninghame,  Lt 2nd Life Gds

TC Currie Lt., Cheltenham College OTC

John Clive Darling  Lt  20th Hussars

Edward Charles Dimsdale  Lt 6th Rifle Brigade 

G R Elliott Lt., 3 Dragoon Guards 

Robert Sylvester John  Faulknor Lt  1st  Loyal North Lancs

Ronald Foster Forbes  Lt  3rd Highland Light

Edmund Alec Forestier-Walker, Lt 1st Cheshire Regiment

Cusack Grant Forsyth  Lt  2nd  Yorkshire  Regiment 

Charles William Frizell, Lt 1st Royal Berkshire

Samuel Alwyne  Gabb Lt 3rd  Worcestershire  Regiment

Harold  Lloyd de Forge  Garland Lt  New Zealand Staff  Corps 

Lionel Gartside  Lt  3rd  West Yorkshire Regiment

Gilbert Meade  Gerard  Lt  2nd  Highland Light Infantry

Guy Vincent Hugh Gough   Lt  1st KRRC

E V Hall  Lt  3rd  East Lancashire Regiment

Edward Brian Barkley  Hawkins  Lt  2nd West Yorkshire Regiment

Herbert Francis Searancke  Huntington Lt 2nd Welsh Regiment 

Charles . Bramwell Armitage  Jackson  2nd  York and Lancs 

Samuel Gordon  Johnson  Lt  2nd  South Staffs

Bertram Maurice  Kenny  Lt  1st  Royal West  Surrey

George Pinckard Lathbury,  RMLI

Lyall Brandreth, 2nd Royal Fusiliers and SoM staff

 

 

 

Edited by mrfrank
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This could well be 'Samuel Alwyne  Gabb Lt 3rd  Worcestershire  Regiment'

Screenshot courtesy of http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/o_gabb

We just have to match him to a face on your picture. :D Edit; I would need enlarged pictures to be able to see the cap badges please @mrfrank.

 

image.png.b8d0bc4f537d4ce48a2df1c51822b935.pngimage.png.bec5f5b46da4d8c374fdbe0951fa0c33.pngimage.png.744a631e1fe8f7809241b07063528dee.png

Edited by Bob Davies
to add some..
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A picture of Claude Vierville Champion de Crespigny,  Capt, 3rd Wiltshire Regiment can be found here;

https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=406

Death Date: 17 July 1927 Singida, Tanganyika, having been badly mauled by a leopard

 

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Thanks for the replies Bob. 
I have the following:

Samuel Alwyne Gabb as being in the 2nd row from the back, 4th in from the right. 
 

Champion de Crespigny - 3rd row. 2nd from left with pipe in mouth. 
 

John Clive Darling - 4th row, 4th from left. 
 


 

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2 hours ago, mrfrank said:

George Pinckard Lathbury

As well as winning a Distinguished Service Cross at Gallipolli in 1915 as a Captain https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29423/supplement/89/data.pdf
George would also marry a Winifred Dove in the St George Hanover Square District in Q4 1915. The newspaper reporting unfortunately for this purpose is muted, with more coverage of the couples engagement than the quiet wedding that followed. (British Newspaper Archive).

It looks like the couple subsequently divorced, as a Mrs Winifred Lathbury, daughter of a Mr and Mrs Dove, marries in 1927. Major George Pinckard Lathbury, D.S.C., R.M., (retired) would himself marry again to a woman scientist regarded as so important by H.M. Government that the Civil Service expressly put aside it's requirement for woman in such positions to resign their post on marriage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Culhane_Lathbury

Until I can get into the library I can't check out the newspaper reporting of the 2nd marriage from the British Newspaper Archive, but from the thumbnails there are potentially some pictures of the wedding couple.

BNAscreenshot1933weddingLathburyCulhanetaken300124part1.png.c61d592e96b019f9845221b92b16e261.png

BNAscreenshot1933weddingLathburyCulhanetaken300124part2.png.ceb61d709e042e69469d3af971cd1796.png

Both images courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Typos
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2 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Lt Claude Boys Adams (3rd Bn)

There is a small web page about his family, it says about him courtesy of https://wolverhamptonswar.wordpress.com/tag/pendeford-hall/

There is more about his family if you click the link. No obvious picture.

A Lieutenant and later a Captain in the South Staffordshire Regiment, Claude Boys Adams went missing on 30 October 1914, and was captured as a prisoner of war. His prisoner of war records confirm he was captured at Landvoorde and was initially held at Pieter Maritzburg. He was repatriated on 22 November 1918. Kenneth became a Lieutenant and later a Major in the Royal Engineers. After the war, he married American Janice Horne, and they had three children. He died in Ludlow in 1979 aged 91 years. Wilmot served with the West Yorkshire Regiment (number 6), the Lancashire Fusiliers (number 60533) and the Labour Corps (number 511199). He married Enid Carnegy-Arbuthnott in 1919.

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George Pinckard Lathbury, born 5th September 1883, attended Charterhouse School between 1898 and 1901, joining the Royal Marines in 1902. https://archive.org/details/charterhouseregi02charuoft/page/628/mode/2up?q=Lathbury

When the 1901 Census of England & Wales was taken on the 31st March 1911, the 17 year old George P. Lathbury, born Denham, Middlesex, was still recorded as a student at the school.

If anyone has access to the Charterhouse School Digital Archive then they may have a more contemporary picture of him than the potential ones from the 1933 wedding. https://www.charterhousearchives.org.uk/

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
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We have a Capt S G Johnson 2nd South Staffs,  in this book. We may need computer image expert @PRC

to make it bigger and the right way up, if you would do us a favor please Peter.

Page 240. plate 14. Edit; Screenshot courtesy of...

https://archive.org/details/southstaffordshirereg/page/n297/mode/2up

image.png.28eec29cdd06905e1ce5c50e7fa4ac61.png

Edited by Bob Davies
to add a bit...
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6 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Lt Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins

Using google searching as a start, I am being sent in the direction of OBE awards 1931 Wikipedia. Half way down the page.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931_Birthday_Honours

Major (local Lieutenant-Colonel) Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins, DSO, The West Yorkshire Regiment (The Prince of Wales's Own), Officer Commanding, 1st (Nyasaland) Battalion, The King's African Rifles.

Then to here, https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/out-on-a-limb-the-road-through-tunduru-german-east-africa-may-to-november-1917/

Approx 3/4 of the way down the page, look for the word Aftermath in bold type.

'Major Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins had carried out his orders to the letter.  He also received an immediate award of the Distinguished Service Order:

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Boldly attacking a superior enemy force, he inflicted severe casualties on them, thus diverting them from their objective, and being instrumental in causing their subsequent surrender. He has at all times shown the greatest courage and initiative, and has afforded a most inspiring example to the troops under him.

The aftermath'

Then courtesy Internet archive; MAJOR EDWARD BRIAN BARKLEY HAWKINS: D.S.O.; The P.W.O. West Yorkshire Regiment, York; Local Lt.-Col. commanding 1st Batt. the King’s African Rifles, Zomba, Nyasaland; s. of Edward Hawkins; served in Uganda, British East Africa, German East Africa, Portuguese East Africa, Nyasaland, N. Rhodesia H.B.M.’s Consul for Southwestern Ethiopia.

https://archive.org/details/hawkinsfamilyrec00seav/page/n51/mode/2up?q=Edward

No pictures are forthcoming yet.

Regards, Bob.

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6 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Two South Staffs officers to either side of this image. Again two names - Lt Samuel Gordon Johnson (2nd Bn) and Lt Claude Boys Adams (3rd Bn). 

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

We have a Capt S G Johnson 2nd South Staffs,  in this book. Page 240. plate 14. Edit; Screenshot courtesy of...https://archive.org/details/southstaffordshirereg/page/n297/mode/2up

On the British Army Monthly List for August 1914 S.G. Johnson is shown as a Captain with the 2nd Battalion with seniority from the 1st January 1913, (so after the 279th Party), while C.B. Adams is shown as a Lieutenant with the 1st Battalion. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103631918

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

We may need computer image expert

No expertise, just mug enough to have a go:)

There is not a great deal of pixels to go on with the picture of the 2nd Battalion Officers at Aldershot, and the presence of a moustache on the officer I believe is Captain S.G. Johnson may be misleading when it comes to working out which one he was on the 1911 picture.

Given the number of small blemishes across the picture I believe the black dot on the face of the right hand South Staffs Officer in the School of Musketry picture is just another one - rather than a facial feature - so I've removed it. Apologies if that turns out to be an error, but as Captain Johnson has a moustache covering the relevant area it shouldn't make any difference in comparing these three images.

SouthStaffsOfficerscomparisonv1.png.34c7c3cad6d992d42ccd30b04d29103a.png

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Ignoring the moustache, (which is a different shape anyway), my money would be the South Staffords Officer on the right. Eye socket shape, (including his drooping right eye), nose and chin shape and overall proportions of face lead me to that conclusion. The jury is out on the ears - both of the officers in the 1911 picture appear to have different left and right ears. Captain Johnson appears to have one from each, but that could in part be due to his stance.

Hope that helps,
Peter

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12 minutes ago, PRC said:

On the British Army Monthly List for August 1914 S.G. Johnson is shown as a Captain with the 2nd Battalion with seniority from the 1st January 1913, (so after the 279th Party), while C.B. Adams is shown as a Lieutenant with the 1st Battalion. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103631918

No expertise, just mug enough to have a go:)

There is not a great deal of pixels to go on with the picture of the 2nd Battalion Officers at Aldershot, and the presence of a moustache on the officer I believe is Captain S.G. Johnson may be misleading when it comes to working out which one he was on the 1911 picture.

Given the number of small blemishes across the picture I believe the black dot on the face of the right hand South Staffs Officer in the School of Musketry picture is just another one - rather than a facial feature - so I've removed it. Apologies if that turns out to be an error, but as Captain Johnson has a moustache covering the relevant area it shouldn't make any difference in comparing these three images.

SouthStaffsOfficerscomparisonv1.png.34c7c3cad6d992d42ccd30b04d29103a.png

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Ignoring the moustache, (which is a different shape anyway), my money would be the South Staffords Officer on the right. Eye socket shape, (including his drooping right eye), nose and chin shape and overall proportions of face lead me to that conclusion. The jury is out on the ears - both of the officers in the 1911 picture appear to have different left and right ears. Captain Johnson appears to have one from each, but that could in part be due to his stance.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Thank you Peter, your 'have a go mug shots' I believe have helped.

I will bet my rum ration with you, that the South Staffs Officer on the right is our man.

In both pictures his cap is at an angle, whereas the Officer on the right is straight as a die with no neck and very determined.

Bottom lip distance to bottom of chin cannot be altered by facial expression.

Bulldog on the left, I am certain is not the athletic hound on the right.

So, I think that if the 2ndBatt Officer from the book picture is the correct man, he is not the Officer on the left.

Most probably the Officer on the right. Others may shoot me down. @FROGSMILE What say you Sir?

Regards, Bob.

 

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9 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Two West Yorkshire Regiment officers standing next to each other to centre of this image. Two named on the roll are Lt Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins (2nd Bn) and Lt Lionel Gartside (3rd Bn).

The birth an Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins, mothers’ maiden name Barkley, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bury St Edmunds District, Suffolk, in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1890.

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 1 year old Edward B.B. Hawkins, born Bury St Edmunds, who was recorded living at 84 Eastgate Street, Bury St. Edmunds. This was the household of his parents Edward Ras(?) Hawkins, (aged 40, a Magistrate, living on own means, born Leigh, Essex),  and Kate Clyde Hawkins, (age unclear, born Sheerness, Kent). Supporting the three of them there is then three live in servants.

There is no obvious match for the family members on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 21 year old unmarried Lieutenant Edward Hawkins, born Bury St. Edmunds, who was recorded in barracks at Circular Road, Colchester, with the 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.

His father Edward were recorded living at The Leylands, Cliff Avenue, Cromer, Norfolk. He lives there with his new wife of six years, Ethel Miriam Hawkins, (31) and their two children, plus a son from his previous marriage, Geoffrey Eden Hawkins, aged 18 and born Bury St. Edmunds.

I’ve not come across anything so far for Lieutenant Hawkins in the Norfolk newspapers.

He would receive a DSO serving in East Africa in the fight in the Ngurumahiga Valley in 1917.

“For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Boldly attacking a superior enemy force, he inflicted severe casualties on them, thus diverting them from their objective, and being instrumental in causing their subsequent surrender. He has at all times shown the greatest courage and initiative, and has afforded a most inspiring example to the troops under him.” https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/out-on-a-limb-the-road-through-tunduru-german-east-africa-may-to-november-1917/

May be a co-incidence but the same piece adds “Shorthose's advance guard commander was Lieutenant G E Hawkins (Royal Berkshire Regiment) of No 2 Company with No 8 Platoon and two Lewis guns. Geoffrey Eden Hawkins was soon involved in a fight for which he was awarded the Military Cross”

Edward would carry on serving between the wars, reaching the rank of Major-General in WW2. https://generals.dk/general/Hawkins/Edward_Brian_Barkley/Great_Britain.html

No obvious Medal Index Card so I don’t have an address for him from that source,

The National Army Museum has his papers and maps relating to his service in East Africa in 1916-17 with the Kings African Rifles. https://collection.nam.ac.uk/inventory/objects/results.php?shortDescription=&event=&campaign=&associatedName=&unit=west%20yorkshire%20regiment&placeNotes=&productionNotes=&keyword=&flag=2&page=1

But no picture.

Turning to Lieutenant Lionel Gartside the first thing I found on line is that he resigned his commission on the 17th April 1912. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28599/page/2705/data.pdf

But in 1916 as a Temporary Captain it looks like the same man was recorded transferring from the West Yorkshire Regiment to the Highland Light Infantry. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29465/supplement/1457/data.pdf

No obvious birth in England & Wales. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Lionel Gartside, born Glasgow, recorded as a Pupil at Brunswick (Young Gentleman’s School) at Haywards Heath, Sussex. The West Sussex Archives do apparently have some records  - it was a prep school from 1896-1938. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4302f035-643b-4b8f-a0ce-34094727967a

An Ancestry tree has a picture of a Lieutenant Lionel Gartside, but as I can’t see the tree I have no way of knowing if it relates to the officer we are interested in. So unless someone can source a better version of the picture from Ancestry and confirm the (basic) details held in the family tree, here is the best I can do.
WestYorksOfficerscomparisonv1.png.fd0df761a90f051bf880932bd0a9e2d5.png

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

My best guess, if the Ancestry picture is of the right Lionel Gartside, would be a match for the officer on the right.

Cheers,
Peter

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2 hours ago, PRC said:

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Lionel Gartside, born Glasgow, recorded as a Pupil at Brunswick (Young Gentleman’s School) at Haywards Heath, Sussex.

ScotlandsPeople has the birth of a Lionel Gartside registered in 1887 in the Kelvin registration district, which would be Glasgow.

GARTSIDE    LIONEL    M    1887    644 / 9 / 307    Kelvin

Lionel Gartside was subsequently awarded the Distinguished Service Order while serving as an Acting Lieutenant-Colonel with the HLI, the citation being published in the Gazette of 15 October 1918.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30950/supplement/12053

He was originally commissioned to the Unattached List on 6 July 1908, subsequently being augmented to the Prince of Wale's Own (West Yorkshire Regiment) later that year, but with pay and allowances only dating from 11 August 1909.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28172/page/6305

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28278/page/6090

It appears he returned as an officer on 22 September 1914, with an appointment as Captain to the 3rd Battalion of his old regiment.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28909/supplement/7471

I would note that a quick search of the British Newspaper Archives turns up a number of references to a Lionel Gartside appearing on the stage in various productions in the immediate pre-war period, as well as a possible marriage to a Miss Edwards in early 1915. Whether the actor is the same as the soldier remains to be seen, however the newspaper description of the musical interlude 'The Blue Knuts' that was presented on 1 December 1914 found on the webpage below would suggest that they are highly likely to be the same man.

http://wetherbywarmemorial.com/id19.html

Edited by Tawhiri
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8 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you Peter, your 'have a go mug shots' I believe have helped.

I will bet my rum ration with you, that the South Staffs Officer on the right is our man.

In both pictures his cap is at an angle, whereas the Officer on the right is straight as a die with no neck and very determined.

Bottom lip distance to bottom of chin cannot be altered by facial expression.

Bulldog on the left, I am certain is not the athletic hound on the right.

So, I think that if the 2ndBatt Officer from the book picture is the correct man, he is not the Officer on the left.

Most probably the Officer on the right. Others may shoot me down. @FROGSMILE What say you Sir?

Regards, Bob.

 

I agree with Peter and your good self in your compelling selection of the officer on the right being the correct match Bob.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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7 hours ago, PRC said:

The birth an Edward Brian Barkley Hawkins, mothers’ maiden name Barkley, was registered with the civil authorities in the Bury St Edmunds District, Suffolk, in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1890.

 

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 1 year old Edward B.B. Hawkins, born Bury St Edmunds, who was recorded living at 84 Eastgate Street, Bury St. Edmunds. This was the household of his parents Edward Ras(?) Hawkins, (aged 40, a Magistrate, living on own means, born Leigh, Essex),  and Kate Clyde Hawkins, (age unclear, born Sheerness, Kent). Supporting the three of them there is then three live in servants.

 

There is no obvious match for the family members on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 21 year old unmarried Lieutenant Edward Hawkins, born Bury St. Edmunds, who was recorded in barracks at Circular Road, Colchester, with the 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.

 

His father Edward were recorded living at The Leylands, Cliff Avenue, Cromer, Norfolk. He lives there with his new wife of six years, Ethel Miriam Hawkins, (31) and their two children, plus a son from his previous marriage, Geoffrey Eden Hawkins, aged 18 and born Bury St. Edmunds.

 

I’ve not come across anything so far for Lieutenant Hawkins in the Norfolk newspapers.

 

He would receive a DSO serving in East Africa in the fight in the Ngurumahiga Valley in 1917.

 

“For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Boldly attacking a superior enemy force, he inflicted severe casualties on them, thus diverting them from their objective, and being instrumental in causing their subsequent surrender. He has at all times shown the greatest courage and initiative, and has afforded a most inspiring example to the troops under him.” https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/out-on-a-limb-the-road-through-tunduru-german-east-africa-may-to-november-1917/

 

May be a co-incidence but the same piece adds “Shorthose's advance guard commander was Lieutenant G E Hawkins (Royal Berkshire Regiment) of No 2 Company with No 8 Platoon and two Lewis guns. Geoffrey Eden Hawkins was soon involved in a fight for which he was awarded the Military Cross”

Edward would carry on serving between the wars, reaching the rank of Major-General in WW2. https://generals.dk/general/Hawkins/Edward_Brian_Barkley/Great_Britain.html

 

No obvious Medal Index Card so I don’t have an address for him from that source,

 

The National Army Museum has his papers and maps relating to his service in East Africa in 1916-17 with the Kings African Rifles. https://collection.nam.ac.uk/inventory/objects/results.php?shortDescription=&event=&campaign=&associatedName=&unit=west%20yorkshire%20regiment&placeNotes=&productionNotes=&keyword=&flag=2&page=1

 

But no picture.

 

Turning to Lieutenant Lionel Gartside the first thing I found on line is that he resigned his commission on the 17th April 1912. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28599/page/2705/data.pdf

 

But in 1916 as a Temporary Captain it looks like the same man was recorded transferring from the West Yorkshire Regiment to the Highland Light Infantry. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29465/supplement/1457/data.pdf

 

No obvious birth in England & Wales. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Lionel Gartside, born Glasgow, recorded as a Pupil at Brunswick (Young Gentleman’s School) at Haywards Heath, Sussex. The West Sussex Archives do apparently have some records  - it was a prep school from 1896-1938. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4302f035-643b-4b8f-a0ce-34094727967a

 

An Ancestry tree has a picture of a Lieutenant Lionel Gartside, but as I can’t see the tree I have no way of knowing if it relates to the officer we are interested in. So unless someone can source a better version of the picture from Ancestry and confirm the (basic) details held in the family tree, here is the best I can do.
WestYorksOfficerscomparisonv1.png.fd0df761a90f051bf880932bd0a9e2d5.png

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

 

My best guess, if the Ancestry picture is of the right Lionel Gartside, would be a match for the officer on the right.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Once again agreed Peter, your case is very thorough and convincing in all respects.  The side-by-side presentation is always a great help too. 

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17 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Bought this damaged photo recently and have been trying to identify those present with the aid of the School of Musketry student logs on The Ogilby Muster. The squads were allocated by Surname alphabetically so 1-6 should be composed of the first half of the roll. I have managed to identify the majority via cap badges, but I have six yet to identify so if anyone can give me any pointers then I’d be grateful. Here’s the group photo and then those six individuals to follow……….

 

IMG_3886.jpeg

Thank you for posting this interesting course photograph mrfrank, I’m always especially thrilled to see them as you know.  They often reveal a great deal about regimental dress and changes that occurred over time.  A sort of historical weather gauge if you will.  Those from the turn of the century are even better as they frequently illustrate the transition from coloured undress to drab khaki following the 2nd Boer War.  I participated in similar course photos, in terms of layout, throughout the decade of the 1980s and when they are examined one day by historians of military dress they will have a lot less to look at beyond the cap badges and headdress.

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Thanks everyone - your assistance has proved to be as invaluable as always.

I have one general question with regard to the roll for this particular party, but applies to other parties and courses of the time.

Lts TG Hetherington (18th Hussars) & The Hon ROD Keppel (3rd Coldstream Guards) should  feature in this image, but do not. Their entries in the School course rolls have the annotation in red 'Failed entrance exam'. Anyone any idea what this exam entailed and as to whether it was sat prior to arriving at the School?

Thanks again!

Mike

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On 31/01/2024 at 10:15, mrfrank said:

Thanks everyone - your assistance has proved to be as invaluable as always.

I have one general question with regard to the roll for this particular party, but applies to other parties and courses of the time.

Lts TG Hetherington (18th Hussars) & The Hon ROD Keppel (3rd Coldstream Guards) should  feature in this image, but do not. Their entries in the School course rolls have the annotation in red 'Failed entrance exam'. Anyone any idea what this exam entailed and as to whether it was sat prior to arriving at the School?

Thanks again!

Mike

The exams were usually taken on arrival I believe, as it wasn’t feasible to send them out to all of the widely dispersed stations of those times and guarantee receipt.  Failure of the examination, which usually occurred on day one (a sort of entrance test), usually entailed immediate return to unit (RTU).  The tests were generally a little dreaded by all but the most obtuse characters, as there was inevitably a loss of face and ignominy back in the parent unit if an officer was RTU.

 For the musketry course the entrance examination usually entailed a good knowledge of what every junior cavalry and infantry officer was expected to have learned from the musketry staff of his regiment/battalion.  This staff generally comprised of the battalion adjutant, who was usually dual roled to be the battalion musketry officer via possession of a certificate from Hythe’s School of Musketry, plus perhaps more practically the Sergeant Instructor of Musketry (colour sergeant after around 1902 I think).

Typical subjects were the listed principles of musketry, details of rifle velocity, windage, trajectory, judging distance and sight setting.  If these basics had not been mastered already then it was felt that the student would be wasting the school’s instructional staff’s time.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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