RGA Plymouth 1916 45th (Battle Axe) Company (all named)

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, ianjonesncl said:

think this is G.P.O. - General Post Office. 

From FindmyPast imperial Calendar. 1916.

George Henry John Hook, Born Brixton 21/2/1873. Death reg Q1 1961 Worthing.

Edited 8 December , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Third row.

George Millard 64798 Svc record 45 Coy 22/1/16- ?1917?

Cecil Horace Leach 57793

John Edward Dallimore 57813 

Charles Horace Freestone 57790 . Service record Signaller Corpl.

Joseph George Battey 57778

William G Bittle 57732 .MM 155SB

Reginald Ernest Powell 57707 Svc record, 45 Coy 22/1-9/9/16

Lewis Henry Jenkins 57727 Svc record, 45 Coy 22/1-9/9/16 

George Knightley 64671 Svc record 45 Coy 22/1-2/5/16

Charles Waiting 64677

Alfred Henry William Bunston 57818. Pension card only.

Fred James Taylor 57737 Svc record Signaller 192 Heavy Battery.

Albert Ernest Labrum 57777 

 

End of row.

Edited 9 December , 2022 by charlie962
More names, Bunston found.

[Pat Atkins]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Charles Taylor 57801 

Service record 

45 Coy 22/1-19/8/16 

1st Class in Signalling and Telephony Shoreham by sea, 21/8/16

 

45 Coy was the unit from which Gnr Engstrom was discharged in 1916.

[charlie962]

The medal roll for those who didn't change unit is in numerical order so here are some pages that pick up a number of participants 

 

Note those with Sig crossed out because it's an appointment not a rank.

Edited 8 December , 2022 by charlie962

[Pat Atkins]

Good work, in record time - nicely done Charlie962!

[charlie962]

8 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

, in record time

Your thought on near numbers hugely simplified things. There are one or two exceptions and there are a couple I couldn't find or hesitate on.. over to you to ferret them out? 

I'll attack the next row.

 

Edited 8 December , 2022 by charlie962

[Pat Atkins]

4 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Third row.

Bunston AWH ?? Not found ??

If I'm looking at the right man, he seems to have different (non-metal?) buttons, though his cap badge is unmistakably RA. No idea if this has any significance at all, I expect they were utility buttons or somesuch (I'd bet @FROGSMILE will know), but I can't find a record for him either.

I'm back at work now but will keep tabs on this thread and have a crack when I can; Pals like @Matlock1418 would probably get better results than I could, though!

Pat

[charlie962]

4th Row.

James Hooper 57821

Albert D Carter 57640

Harry E Lumber 57646 Hosp Admit 1918 says Signaller.

Phillip Harry Spry Winsor 57718 (1896-1986)

William Hornby Armer 57705 Svc record

James Pitt 64760 service record 45 Coy 22/1-9/9/16.

Samuel J Tickle 64804 Cpl.

George T Dagnall 64803 Sgt.

Ernest Penhall 64805 Bdr MM 212SBty.

Percival A Curtis 57837 Cpl 

Frederick George Tomkins 57770 Cpl MM with 158SBty 

John Thomas O'Brien 57762 service record 45 Coy 22/1-31/10/16. 

John H Hooper 57822 

 

End of fourth row.

Edited 9 December , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Front Row seated 

Charles E Taylor 57722

George Henry John Hook, GPO engineer. (1873-1961)

Ernest Minshull 3959, 278959. An old soldier reenlist(20 yrs svc) Svc record 3 Depot RGA (=Plymouth) 28/1/15-28/12/16.

Capt Daniel Peter Mills, District Officer, (1860-1945) see later post obit.

Colonel AV StJ White (Alfred Victor StJohn White, 1864-1934,of a big Norfolk farming family as well as Timothy White's)

Lt William Henry Baker (OP's family)

Bdr William Henry Baker 58097 (OP's family)

William Henry Roach 57800 later commissioned.

Edwin Pennington 57664 later hosp admit 190HBty.

 

 

Edited 9 December , 2022 by charlie962

[TullochArd]

There's an amazing bit of RGA research by kevinrowlinson that materialises into his two service number spreadsheets (40000 to 205000 from Jan 1914 to Mar 1918) that will provide an actual enlistment date for those so far identified:

Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA) numbering, enlistment dates, new Heavy - Other Great War Chat - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

 It will further allocate numbers allocated from No3 Depot, The Citadel should there be any doubt of an individual's pedigree so far.

e.g. Charles E Taylor 57722 (charlie962) confirmed as enlistment Jul-Nov 1915 from No3 Depot Citadel, Plymouth (kevinrowlinson) 

Edited 8 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[Pat Atkins]

Third row, 57777 Gnr Albert Ernest Fabrum is in fact Albert Ernest Labrum, RGA, who was discharged with a SWB; his entry states enlisted 31/10/15 and disxcharged unfit 04/-6/18, aged 23. I can't quite fit him to any of the possibilities on Ancestry re census, birth, death or marriage, on account of his age in the SWB (23 years and 217 days on 04/06/18), but this isn't my area, particularly.

Great link, thanks Tullochard! That is good research - and very handy.

Edit: and neatly fits our men in the photo.

Edited 8 December , 2022 by Pat Atkins

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Pat Atkins said:

If I'm looking at the right man, he seems to have different (non-metal?) buttons, though his cap badge is unmistakably RA. No idea if this has any significance at all, I expect they were utility buttons or somesuch (I'd bet @FROGSMILE will know), but I can't find a record for him either.

I'm back at work now but will keep tabs on this thread and have a crack when I can; Pals like @Matlock1418 would probably get better results than I could, though!

Pat

There are two possibilities Pat, either leather general service buttons that were issued expediently to save metal, or green painted plain metal buttons fitted on American made SD jackets under contract.

[Pat Atkins]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

There are two possibilities Pat, either leather general service buttons that were issued expediently to save metal, or green painted plain metal buttons fitted on American made SD jackets under contract.

Thanks - hadn't heard of the latter, very interesting. Alas, no significance in this particular context I guess.

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

fact Albert Ernest Labrum, RGA,

Agreed. Corrected my error

[TullochArd]

I've been having a root around regarding 'Battle Axe Company' history and it seems that the origins date back to Martinique 1809 where a French gun was gifted to an antecedent artillery unit but shortly replaced with more easily man-portable souvenirs consisting of Brass Drum (now lost) and a French pioneer's Battle Axe. The 'Battle Axe Company' title was not officially recognised until 1926 although BMB's excellent photo reinforces that good old British Army tradition of not really bothering about that sort of thing. 

The Battle Axe Company was 74 Battery (The Battle Axe Company), 39 Regiment RA, The Welsh Gunners until a few years back and is now a specialised unit in support of Unmanned Aerial Systems based in Larkhill........Martinique seems a very, very long way away.

Here's the Battle Axe of Battle Axe Company with 74 Bty ........ 

Edited 8 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

I've been having a root around regarding 'Battle Axe Company' history and it seems that the origins date back to Martinique 1809 where a French gun was gifted to an antecedent artillery unit but shortly replaced with more easily man-portable souvenirs consisting of Brass Drum (now lost) and a French pioneer's Battle Axe. The 'Battle Axe Company' title was not officially recognised until 1926 although BMB's excellent photo reinforces that good old British Army tradition of not really bothering about that sort of thing. 

The Battle Axe Company was 74 Battery (The Battle Axe Company), 39 Regiment RA, The Welsh Gunners until a few years back and is now a specialised unit in support of Unmanned Aerial Systems based in Larkhill........Martinique seems a very, very long way away.

Here's the Battle Axe of Battle Axe Company with 74 Bty ........ 

Snap! 😉https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/153347-postcards/page/404/

 

[BMB]

I have found another one. It's the same but different. Unfortunately only a postcard with no information whatsoever on names or date. Apart from my G Grandfather, who I can see second from the right, and perhaps the colonel and the captain, they seem to be completely different people. Lots more officers. My grandfather is not there.

Edited 9 December , 2022 by BMB

[BMB]

Also a postcard version of the original picture.

[BMB]

This picture of my grandfather with his sisters is dated on the back, July 1916. Here he is a sergeant whereas in the original picture he is a bombardier. Therefore the original picture must be before then, earlier in 1916

[Pat Atkins]

There's a senior NCO wearing four chevrons with a star above them (second left, standing behind the OP's Great-grandfather). This might help date the new photograph, as (in the infantry, at least) such badges denoted a Quartermaster Sergeant prior to the introduction of WOII rank by AO 70 in 1915. However, two caveats: there were exceptions (see e.g. an old thread here), and these men belong to the Royal Artillery - it would need an expert to confirm.

[BMB]

Some more pictures and records. I wonder if anybody might be able to point me in the right direction for working out his activities from July 1916 to the end of the war. I have the book The Devonshire Regiment by Atkinson and I know which company he was in so I have quite a good idea of his activities in the early part of the war. And I know that later he was in Egypt with the RGA but I have no idea which company/Battery he was with or which battles, if any, he was involved in. 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

There's a senior NCO wearing four chevrons with a star above them (second left, standing behind the OP's Great-grandfather). This might help date the new photograph, as (in the infantry, at least) such badges denoted a Quartermaster Sergeant prior to the introduction of WOII rank by AO 70 in 1915. However, two caveats: there were exceptions (see e.g. an old thread here), and these men belong to the Royal Artillery - it would need an expert to confirm.

You are quite correct Pat, as an embodied TF unit after July 1915 a crown should normally be worn by QMS of the upper [Brigade] level.  There were also Battery Quarter-Master-Sergeants (BQMS) whose badge was 3-stripes upper arm surmounted by a gun and crown above.

However, there are lots of other men in the photo with the single crown who would rank as WOII and also a man with Sam Browne who appears to wear a coat of arms badge on his lower sleeve indicating a WOI.  This set of circumstances would suggest that the man with 4-stripes was as yet insufficiently qualified in some way to take up the badges of WOII.  This was not uncommon for some men during the transitional periods throughout the war.

Afternote: @Pat Atkinsafter squinting at the 4-stripe man I’m pretty sure that might be a small crown above a gun and four stripes, which suggests he may be an ‘Acting Sergeant Major’ of of TF RA unit.  These appointments were unique to the TF until abolished and granted substantive rank. 

Edited 9 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

15 hours ago, TullochArd said:

 It will further allocate numbers allocated from No3 Depot, The Citadel should there be any doubt of an individual's pedigree so far.

e.g. Charles E Taylor 57722 (charlie962) confirmed as enlistment Jul-Nov 1915 from No3 Depot Citadel, Plymouth (kevinrowlinson) 

Yes, excellent and I've profited in the past. I am happy that the service numbers ranges I've found  all fall into 1915 RGA attestations and the sample service records confirm presence at 45 Coy for the course early 1916. 

I'm left with two unidentified men.

3rd Row. AWH Bunston (edit..now found thanks to Matlock)

 

Seated Front Row. Capt DP Mills. - can anyone confirm his cap badge? (Edit - now found)

Charlie

 

Edited 9 December , 2022 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, BMB said:

Some more pictures and records. I wonder if anybody might be able to point me in the right direction for working out his activities from July 1916 to the end of the war. I have the book The Devonshire Regiment by Atkinson and I know which company he was in so I have quite a good idea of his activities in the early part of the war. And I know that later he was in Egypt with the RGA but I have no idea which company/Battery he was with or which battles, if any, he was involved in. 

The lowermost photo shows an Australian associated Young Men’s Christian Association recreational hut.  I think from memory it might have been situated at Durrington Camp, near but slightly separate from Larkhill.  The man stood centrally wears a wound stripe and the man left as we look is your subject wearing the same rank of sergeant as in the larger solitary photo.

All the other photos appear to me to be after the war, probably at an annual camp when the Territorials were re-established, as the men wear rows of war medal ribbons and various sets of overseas service chevrons on their lower arms.  One photo appears to be at a race course with its typical high perimeter fence.

Edited 9 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

On 08/12/2022 at 14:19, charlie962 said:

Bunston AWH

How about:

BUNSTON, Alfred Henry William, 57818, Royal Garrison Artillery - Disability Pension card at WFA/Fold3 - Discharged 26.2.19 - 5/6 pw from 27.2.19 to 2.9.19 [the 20% disability rate for a Class V soldier i.e. incl. Gunner]

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

???

M

Edited 12 December , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo