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Remembered Today:

Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA) numbering, enlistment dates, new Heavy


kevinrowlinson

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Occasionally there are requests for enlistment dates for RGA gunners so I have decided to put on forum what I have learnt from viewing many thousands of mens records, occupying many hours over a number of years. For this reason I consider the following to be my copyright and only post it as an aid to fellow forum members for personal use only.
 
In the main I have used the date that a man reported to depot rather than attestation or approval date. The main reason being, in my opinion, it is the nearest date to when a man was given his number. The regular series of numbers covers approx. 40000 to 205000, from Jan. 1914 to March 1918. It may be noticed that the number run may miss some numbers between one depot and another, this is because I haven't found a record between them, although some may exist, it should give anyone an idea when and to where a man was sent.
 
It may take a few posts so if there are any comments will you please wait until the last date I am going to use put on at the moment (205540).
 
If there are no adverse comments I may go on and post the new heavy battery numbers, Special Reserve etc. I appreciate there has been a very informative previous post, which I have often used, but consider it may be the time to bring it up to date.
 

30-5-2016

I have had to add it as a PDF file which hopefully members can open.

Kevin

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kevinrowlinson
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Thank you Terry. I would have liked to have posted it viewable on forum but couldn't get round the formatting problems from the writing to posting. Although a year or two old now, and having viewed quite a few more records, I may get round to updating it one day.

I will post the numbering sequence as I see it for the new locally raised heavy batteries. May be of interest to those that are trying to compile a nominal roll. If nothing else it has convinced me that not only were the records stored numerically, before the fire, and have given some of these a really high survival rate; 141 East Ham HB in particular.

I will also post original numbers which will become apparent after 133 HB.

11& 158 Hull HB.........................1 to 336...........290000 to 290324

38 Welsh HB...............................1 to 306...........290325 to 290589

124 Hull HB.................................1 to 284...........290590 to 290849

126 Camberwell HB....................1 to 252...........290850 to 291079

127 Bristol HB.............................1 to 265...........291083 to 291318

128 Oxfordshire HB....................1 to 254............291319 to 291552

129 Bristol HB.............................1 to 241...........291553 to 291780

132 Oxfordshire HB................400 to 631............291781 to 291998

125 County Palatine HB..............1 to 299...........291999 to 292259.......292212 to 292259 mainly served with 133 HB

133 2nd County Palatine HB...300 to 562...........292260 to 292507

135 Oxfordshire HB.................801 to1032..........292508 to 292723

137 Deptford HB....................1201 to 1470.........292724 to 292973

138 Hampstead HB...............1601 to 1843.........292974 to 293198

140 Hammersmith HB...........2001 to 2236.........293199 to 293410

136 3rd County Palatine HB..2401 to 2687..........293411 to 293680

141 East Ham HB..................2801 to 3085..........293681 to 293936

143 Ashton under Lyne.........3201 to 3434..........293937 to 294156

144 York HB..........................3601 to 3845..........294157 to 294386

145 East Cheshire HB...........4001 to 4252..........294387 to 294608

146 Hull HB...........................4401 to 4626..........294609 to 294826

147 Leicester HB..................4801 to 5036..........294827 to 295050

148 Smethwick HB................5201 to 5454..........295051 to 295294

149 Wakefield HB..................5601 to 5859..........295295 to 295548

Men who went out with 149 HB renumbered with 2/1 Nth Midland TF and 2/1 Lowland HB TF numbers

Those men numbered 295295 to 295548 served with other batteries.

150 Rotherham HB...............6001 to 6228..........295549 to 295769

151 Darlington HB.................6401 to 6644.........295770 to 296005

152 Hackney HB...................6801 to 7048..........296006 to 296248

153 Tottenham HB................7201 to 7428..........296249 to 296476

139 Hampstead HB..............7601 to 7951...........296477 to 296825

155 East Cheshire.................8401 to 8641..........296826 to 297063

156 Oxfordshire HB..............8801 to 9129...........297064 to 297388

157 Leicester HB..................9201 to 9425..........297389 to 297608....5031+ from 147 HB renumbered with 9201+

134 Cornwall HB Cornwall RGA TF 321***

142 Durham HB Durham RGA TF 337***, 338***

154 Hants HB Hants RGA TF 352***, 353*** some transfers from 157 HB

159 Devon HB Devon RGA TF 329***, 330***

Kevin

Edit to add following 21st July 2014

There was a Special Reserve started at the start of the war for ex soldiers/gunners under a 1 year, or duration of war, attestation. The series started at 1 but at the start of 1917 they were renumbered, similar to above and the TF, by just adding 275000. Easy to identify and know what the mans original number would have been if only the 6 digit number is known.

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Well done on your research on this. I think most people would not appreciate that the above work required an examination of an enormous number of individual service records. Thanks for posting.

From a practical point of view have you ascertained whether men were alocated numbers 7 days a week or were RGA recruits ariving into the depot on a set number of days during the week or at least allocated in batches.

Certainly from my examination of the files, I took it that each Depot had a particualr allocation of numbers so that if one Depot was getting less recruits than another, a recruit could have a lower number than someone who enlisted before them (by a few weeks) but I couldnt work out id recruits were given a number as soon as they arrived at the Depot or whether they were allocated say on particualr days of the week only?

Mark

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From a practical point of view have you ascertained whether men were alocated numbers 7 days a week or were RGA recruits ariving into the depot on a set number of days during the week or at least allocated in batches.

Certainly from my examination of the files, I took it that each Depot had a particualr allocation of numbers so that if one Depot was getting less recruits than another, a recruit could have a lower number than someone who enlisted before them (by a few weeks) but I couldnt work out id recruits were given a number as soon as they arrived at the Depot or whether they were allocated say on particualr days of the week only?

Hi Mark,

Unfortunately I have not seen any mention in records when a man was given his number. Certainly men were arriving daily to depots and I would think they were numbered within a day or two and close to being approved. I could easily believe that approval was not necessarily daily but the OC could not leave that job too long as the back log would soon build up. Those men who were attested but absconded en route before arriving at the depot were generally grouped near the end of a number batch. Personally I consider a man started his service career as soon as he walked through the depot gates.

Kevin

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Kevin, thank you. This is enormously generous to share your very hard work. I have worked up a couple of number blocks of 100 numbers in each and know how much time it takes, this is a great short cut and a great resource.

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Excellent. I now know when my grandfather GNR P.Brice 101590 from Kettering, Northants, who survived,joined but not the battery etc. Were they allocated in groups or individually? Apparently he was a signaller

Dianna. L.

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Gosh Kevin. Just spotted this and I am amazed at how much you have managed to discover. For the last couple of years I've been trying to do the same with the RH & RFA and it is a real mess. Numbers get duplicated then discarded and one set gets strung out for much longer that the rest. It is a nightmare and at a guess I'm about half way through. You have done a fantastic job here and I think it is very fair that you call it your copyright. Have you spotted any distinct blocks of numbers moving from RH & RFA to RGA?

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I am a new member, my grandfather enlisted in the 7th Lancs RGA (Vols) in 1897. In 1908 this unit became 2nd E. Lancs. Bde. RFA

he was given the rank of sergeant and his number was 61. In 1909 he was awarded the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal, in 1913 he was promoted to BQMS. On 7 September 1914 (at Turtons Bottoms, Bolton) he did what many did, he signed up to serve outside the UK. He was now in the 16 Battalion, East Lancs Brigade RFA. According to his records he had typhoid jabs on 29 April 1915. The next entry shows him in Egypt on 15 May 1915, despite my efforts I have been unable to find out where he was between September 1914 and May 1915, can anyone help me please. My grandfather contracted enteric fever and died on board the Hospital Ship ''Asturias'', he was buried at sea off the coast of North Africa. He left a wife and two small boys, a familiar story as we well know. On the 26 Feb. 1916 my grandmother recieved a pension of £1. 2s. 6p., on 22 Feb. 1922 she wrote to the war office requesting his memorial scroll and plaque, more than six years after his sacrifice.

I started my search in 2001, at first nobody could find him, it was as if he never existed. As I lived abroad at the time without the benefit of 'the web' it was a difficult search. After some time an officer at the Medal Office found him and on a visit to Kew Records amazingly found most of his service records. It was originally thought that grandfather was in the Gallipoli invasion and, after considerable pressure from myself his mane was placed on the Helles Memorial. It then turned out that grandfather had in fact gone to Egypt hence the reason that I would like to find the missing period mentioned above. Apologies for such a long winded post, but please help me if you can.

Thank you in anticipation, Henley (ex Army) P.S. he kept his number 61 throughout his service.

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Hi creggan,

Good for you getting his name (Dan Morgan) on the Helles Memorial - as good a place as any as he died between Alexandria and Malta.

In answer to your question, which is actually posted under the wrong topic, he was at home with his brigade between those dates. His posting to Egypt would have been May 15, 1915, but he actually didn't leave Devonport until May 17, 1915 and the trip took about 10 to 12 days. Page 33239 of his Ancestry Service Record shows this information.

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What an amazing amount of research Kevin, thank you for sharing with the forum, and thank you again for helping me with local RGA men last week.

Hard graft, very appreciated

Jim

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An excellent piece of work that should be pinned as a base file for anyone starting out research on RGA regulars numbering and Heavy Batteries, it must also be appreciated just how long this type of work takes in time and effort, and how much easier it makes research for those that follow. Well done Kevin.

Dianna re #9

Welcome, your Brice served in 57 Sge Bty

Rgds

Paul

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Hello Kevin. Fast work indeed in finding my grandfather Dan Morgan on the Helles Memorial thanks for the information and help. I believe Dan was on his way to a hospital in Malta. You quote page 33239 from Ancestry Military Records for your information, can you expand please?. At this time I am not with Ancestry, I got Dans' records from Kew but may have missed some pages. I was visiting from abroad and had little time, people were clamouring for the 'copiers which at that time were pretty old and slow. I realise I joined the wrong topic, originally I wished to start a topic of my own, however through stupidity, I did not know how to start one, and still don't , help please!.

Thanks again Creggan

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Absolutely wonderful Paul. Now we can research where he was and when. Our trip in April will now have so much more meaning. Thank you.

Could you let me know how and where you found this info.

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For the last couple of years I've been trying to do the same with the RH & RFA and it is a real mess. Numbers get duplicated then discarded and one set gets strung out for much longer that the rest. It is a nightmare and at a guess I'm about half way through. Have you spotted any distinct blocks of numbers moving from RH & RFA to RGA?

Thank you David. When I first started I thought it may take a couple of months, but 2 years came and went and I shall not tell you how long I have being doing this just in case it puts you off. You just have to keep going. For the "regulars" I cannot say I have seen any large blocks of transfers, but for the locally raised batteries there were numbers being transferred from the RFA to the RGA but they will not even show up as they were only just newly enlisted themselves. Some RGA gunners who went for their artificers tests were transferred to the RFA, even if they immediately returned to the unit they came after testing, but were then given their old RGA number back again. One reason why some numbers seem disappear.

If I can be of any help then please pm me.

Hello Kevin. Fast work indeed in finding my grandfather Dan Morgan on the Helles Memorial thanks for the information and help. I believe Dan was on his way to a hospital in Malta. You quote page 33239 from Ancestry Military Records for your information, can you expand please?. At this time I am not with Ancestry, I got Dans' records from Kew but may have missed some pages. I was visiting from abroad and had little time, people were clamouring for the 'copiers which at that time were pretty old and slow. I realise I joined the wrong topic, originally I wished to start a topic of my own, however through stupidity, I did not know how to start one, and still don't , help please!.

Thanks again Creggan

Creggan,

It was David who helped you as I know next to nothing about the RFA in detail. Depending on where you live you may find that your local library may subscribe to Ancestry, otherwise just Google Ancestry and then you will have to decide whether to pay to obtain another set of records. I would suggest you start a new thread in "Soldiers" where you will find near the top right corner "Start new topic". Fill in and post. Everyone has to take the plunge with the first one

so don't worry.

Kevin

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If I can be of any help then please pm me.

Kevin,

Your mail box appears full. Here are some blocks I have identified from my notes:

109026 - 109178 = No. 7 (T.F.) Artillery Training School, Winchester to 183 Heavy Bty RGA on 10-06-16 (alphabetical by surname)

Frederick Fanner (139804) was in this group but his Pension Record fails to give an RGA number prior to his discharge on 28-07-16

109430 - 109597 = mostly No. 7 (T.F.) Artillery Training School, Winchester to 182 Heavy Bty RGA on 17-06-16 (no particular order)

Thomas William Ballard (38917) wasn't from No. 7 ATS and his record indicates his number of 109529 was allotted on 06-09-16

So in these instances it looks like the numbering took a while to catch up after the transfers.

No. 7 (T.F.) Artillery Training School at Avington Park in 1916 was initially designated Howitzer and Heavy before they separated.

I think 183 Heavy Bty RGA were actually at Flower Down Camp, Winchester (see Frederick Fanner's record)

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Thank you for all the work you have put in on this. At last I have another bit of information on my husband's grandfather - John S Rollin - whose RGA number was 183313. It has however raised more questions, and I think I need to get myself to Kew somehow to try to flesh out some more information on where he served. Family rumours said that he was involved in interrogating Germans during the war, as he spoke German, but I can't find any evidence of that.

Helen

Hi Helen,

Unfortunately unless you find anything else to indicate a unit he served with it may be a waste of time going to Kew. His medal roll may show a unit, but I would say very unlikely. Have you tried to see whether there is an Absent Voters List for the place he was living? Did he have any children between serving and being demobbed as sometimes ( not always) a unit may be on a birth certificate. It is finding which unit he served with which is difficult.

Kevin

Kevin,

Your mail box appears full. Here are some blocks I have identified from my notes:

109026 - 109178 = No. 7 (T.F.) Artillery Training School, Winchester to 183 Heavy Bty RGA on 10-06-16 (alphabetical by surname)

Frederick Fanner (139804) was in this group but his Pension Record fails to give an RGA number prior to his discharge on 28-07-16

109430 - 109597 = mostly No. 7 (T.F.) Artillery Training School, Winchester to 182 Heavy Bty RGA on 17-06-16 (no particular order)

Thomas William Ballard (38917) wasn't from No. 7 ATS and his record indicates his number of 109529 was allotted on 06-09-16

So in these instances it looks like the numbering took a while to catch up after the transfers.

No. 7 (T.F.) Artillery Training School at Avington Park in 1916 was initially designated Howitzer and Heavy before they separated.

I think 183 Heavy Bty RGA were actually at Flower Down Camp, Winchester (see Frederick Fanner's record)

Thank you David. I misunderstood your earlier question about blocks of transfers and was thinking you meant a number run from the RFA, not those number runs in the RGA. You will see from my list there was quite a few being renumbered at different times if you look at the right hand column.

I have cleared my inbox and will pm you.

Kevin

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  • 1 month later...

Kevin

Thank you so much for this - its been most helpful. From this I can see that my Grandfather (Thomas Turnbull 111064) reported to Fort Burgoyne Depot 1 between July 28/7/16 - 11/8/16.

I now know he was 177 Heavy Battery RGA serving in Mesopotamia. I confirmed this eventually from his enlistment records for the WW2 Home Guard where he stated his previous service - in the WW1 medal rolls he was "Base Dtls".

I have previously tried to estimate his enlistment date by researching the Silver War Badge Lists @ Kew (WO329) and I found a soldier numbered within 417 of Thomas (111481) who enlisted October 1915. But I can now see from his thread that this method is possibly unreliable unless the soldiers are from the same unit.

In your experience what is the usual time lag between a soldier joining up at a recruitment office and then reporting to a Depot?

Secondly in some previous correspondence with me you stated that 177 Heavy Battery left Davenport for Basra 23/6/17 and I wonder where you were able to obtain this information given the absence of useful war diaries for this unit.

Thank you

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Kevin

Thank you so much for this - its been most helpful. From this I can see that my Grandfather (Thomas Turnbull 111064) reported to Fort Burgoyne Depot 1 between July 28/7/16 - 11/8/16.

I now know he was 177 Heavy Battery RGA serving in Mesopotamia. I confirmed this eventually from his enlistment records for the WW2 Home Guard where he stated his previous service - in the WW1 medal rolls he was "Base Dtls".

I have previously tried to estimate his enlistment date by researching the Silver War Badge Lists @ Kew (WO329) and I found a soldier numbered within 417 of Thomas (111481) who enlisted October 1915. But I can now see from his thread that this method is possibly unreliable unless the soldiers are from the same unit.

In your experience what is the usual time lag between a soldier joining up at a recruitment office and then reporting to a Depot?

Secondly in some previous correspondence with me you stated that 177 Heavy Battery left Davenport for Basra 23/6/17 and I wonder where you were able to obtain this information given the absence of useful war diaries for this unit.

Thank you

Using the SWB rolls as a guide for enlistment is not reliable for at least a couple of reasons. A man who enlisted under the Derby Scheme was deemed to have enlisted when he attested although he may have been mobilised months, or years, later. Secondly those men who were transferred either from the TF or another regiment will obviously show their enlistment date and not their transfer date.

The time a man took to actually be posted to a battery varied quite a lot. There are records available for many of the men who were mobilised around your grandfathers number and so you could have a look at them and you will get a fairly reliable time line for his route to the battery.

The battery embarkation date came from mens service records who also served with the 177th Heavy Battery.

Kevin

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  • 3 weeks later...

Kevin

Thanks again for your help. Is there a quick way of determining which service records survive for soldiers in a particular unit like my Grandfather's 177 RGA Heavy Battery? I have started trawling through some numbers from his Battery I obtained from the medal rolls but so far just found 1 and unfortunately he died from heat stroke shortly after arriving in Basra. Ian

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Kevin

Thanks again for your help. Is there a quick way of determining which service records survive for soldiers in a particular unit like my Grandfather's 177 RGA Heavy Battery? I have started trawling through some numbers from his Battery I obtained from the medal rolls but so far just found 1 and unfortunately he died from heat stroke shortly after arriving in Basra. Ian

Ian,

There is not an easy way I am afraid. Those members of 177 HB who served around your relatives number I have seen are;

111045 Coates, George Harold

111047 Denne, Jonathan Joseph

111049 Goss, Leonard Victor

111050 Graham, John, ( didn't go out with 177 HB)

111057 Phair, Harry Edward

111095 Brand, Charles

111097 Brand, Thomas

111109 Jeffs, Percy Edgar

111119 Stone, Frederick

All these mens records have survived ("Pension" or "Burnt")

If you go through these records and want some more gunners who served with 177 HB then please ask. If you go through these records carefully you may possibly pick up some additional names that appear on mens charge sheets (as witnesses) or those that may have been promoted instead of another man (seen as "vice").

Kevin

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  • Admin

Kevin

Hope this question makes sense.

Do you know of any lists of numbers for the renumbering of the TF RGA?

I'm making the assumptions that there were indeed TF units of the RGA (I know nothing of the RGA I'm afraid) and that they were re-numbered in 1917 along with the re-numbering of other TF Corps (Infantry, RE etc).

EDIT: Supplementary question: Also were blocks of RGA (TF) numbers allocated to particular units? If so, do such lists exist?

Thanks in advance

Russ

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