RGA Plymouth 1916 45th (Battle Axe) Company (all named)

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, BMB said:

Isn't that Captain Mills in this photo?

With ribbons for WW1 and overseas service chevrons the photo is presumably 1919/20. The Officer is a Lieutenant. Mills was a Captain in 1913.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

With ribbons for WW1 and overseas service chevrons the photo is presumably 1919/20. The Officer is a Lieutenant. Mills was a Captain in 1913.

Yes I mentioned above that the medals and overseas stripes suggested that several of that tranche of photos were from post war, possibly early on when the Territorial Army was established. 

Edited 9 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They were often former warrant officers such as Master Gunners and other Specialist

Re Capt Daniel Peter Mills.

Following up, here's the Wiltshire Times of 29/7/00 via Findmypast newspapers

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Re Capt Daniel Peter Mills.

Following up, here's the Wiltshire Times of 29/7/00 via Findmypast newspapers

Thanks Charlie, it’s gratifying to see things come together like this.  Not an Armaments Artificer, as I thought might be the case, although Master Gunners worked closely with them. Master Gunners were so specialised that their career path was divided into three consecutive stages of progression that were in effect a form of time promotion.  A majority of them were then commissioned subsequently.

Edited 9 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Western Morning News 3/9/45

Findmypast newspapers

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Western Morning News 3/9/45

Findmypast newspapers

Very interesting, I wonder if the current battle-axe is the 1809 original.  I very much doubt it personally, although it might well be that from WW1 described in your article. 

Edited 9 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

The Sphere 3/4/1909.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The Sphere 3/4/1909.

Well the design is certainly still the same today, although I’m not sure it has the little plaque on the haft that is clearly visible in your picture. 

Edited 9 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Well the design is certainly still the same today, although I’m not sure it has the little plaque on the haft that is clearly visible in your picture. 

It's still there on a photo you put on postcards.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

It's still there on a photo you put on postcards.

Thanks Charlie, I can see it now that you’ve done a close up👍

Did you notice that one of the Eagles lower wings is now missing since WW1?  Some damage over such a long time seems inevitable.

Edited 10 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Back to the original photo with names.

@BMBBy sharing this named photo you have now given us possibility of putting a face to a name of more than 50 people. I do hope in the future this is picked up by a descendant of one of them. The Forum represents an excellent archive. 

Charlie

[BMB]

Charlie, yes. Indeed. I am blown away by not only the research skills of all of you who have commented on this thread but also by the extraordinary attention to detail and the ability to draw out so much information from small details that might otherwise be overlooked by those of us less knowledgeable and practiced in this. It has been very very educational. Very grateful for all I have learned including the comments and observations on the other pictures I posted. It is really a wonderful and very important thing that you guys are doing here. And I am happy with myself for having gotten round to doing something. We had this picture hanging on the wall as I was growing up. It was a few years ago now that I first scanned it and I would occasionally do a search for other copies of it on the net but without success. I figured there must be other copies somewhere (and there probably are) but at the same time I always had a feeling that I should do something for the sake of family members of the other men in the picture. My original scan is about 6MB and it is really clear and sharp. It zooms in very nicely to the face of each person. You really get a feel for their individual character and personality. I am happy to share the full sized file with anybody who might want it. Thank you all.

 

Bruce

[ianjonesncl]

Collated some of the information into a blog entry.

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/12/2022 at 19:12, ianjonesncl said:

Collated some of the information into a blog entry.

 

I agree that it’s a fascinating image Ian, with a great story behind it and interesting to me from a uniform and badge of rank perspective too in that some of the men are BSMs wearing their new WOII badge of rank where as the unit level QMS working for the QM is still wearing the old badge of rank.  I’m assuming therefore that it’s either, a transitional image before a decision to include the QMS within the WOII rank grouping, or simply that the QMS was for some reason not qualified.  Alternatively if it’s a crown above his gun and 4-inverted stripes then he’s an acting sergeant major of a TF unit included for some reason in the photo (see man at far left below).  It is not entirely clear.

Edited 13 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[BMB]

Frogsmile, I have these in the family medal box. I wonder if he was wearing that pip in the photo, I suspect so.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, BMB said:

Frogsmile, I have these in the family medal box. I wonder if he was wearing that pip in the photo, I suspect so.

Yes it’s a period rank star based upon the Order of the Bath and beautifully enamelled in red and green as they were back then (painted now).  The bullion crown is for a warrant officer and of pre 1902 pattern.  It is of the original type, when there was only one warrant officer grade, and used on full dress and undress blue uniforms (for RA), but not [usually] with khaki dress. 

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[BMB]

Thank you. That was helpful.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, BMB said:

Thank you. That was helpful.

They (bullion badges) were sometimes also worn on tropical white uniforms for those based in hot climates such as India, where there was a quite large artillery presence.

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[BMB]

Lt. Baker, in his previous service, with RGA was only ever overseas for a spell in Gibraltar from 1886-92 but he was only a corporal then. For the rest of the time he was with RGA Eastern division.  

His father Henry was also a sergeant Major with the Royal Artillery and spent 16 years in India up to 1879.

His father in Law (Lt. Baker's) was a color Sergeant with 81st foot in India up till 1875 and then Barrack Sergeant in Gibraltar for 22 years (up to 1897). 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, BMB said:

Lt. Baker, in his previous service, with RGA was only ever overseas for a spell in Gibraltar from 1886-92 but he was only a corporal then. For the rest of the time he was with RGA Eastern division.  

His father Henry was also a sergeant Major with the Royal Artillery and spent 16 years in India up to 1879.

His father in Law (Lt. Baker's) was a color Sergeant with 81st foot in India up till 1875 and then Barrack Sergeant in Gibraltar for 22 years (up to 1897). 

Barrack Sergeants were so-called ‘pensioner sergeants’ on extended service.  Their remuneration was the military pension that they’d earned (a prerequisite for the job) plus a stipend that raised their pay to the rate they would’ve had if still serving on regular terms.  There were a number of jobs carried out by pensioner sergeants, including recruiting.

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[BMB]

I see. That all fits together. Sounds like a good deal for the army. And not a bad deal for the retiring sergeant. So he wouldn't have been a Warrant Officer. So the Bullion Badge was probably Lt Baker from his previous RGA service ending in 1904. Apologies to everybody for going off topic. Thank you Frogsmile

Newton, WilliamLetter.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, BMB said:

I see. That all fits together. Sounds like a good deal for the army. And not a bad deal for the retiring sergeant. So he wouldn't have been a Warrant Officer. So the Bullion Badge was probably Lt Baker from his previous RGA service ending in 1904. Apologies to everybody for going off topic. Thank you Frogsmile

Newton, WilliamLetter.pdf 134.77 kB · 5 downloads

Yes, it would presumably have been a part of the Master Gunner’s badge before he became a commissioned officer.

The Master Gunners career path had three distinct stages passed through over time.  Until July 1915 the 3rd class was as a Staff Sergeant wearing just a gun on the lower sleeve.  The 2nd and 1st Class were both warrant officers of the then single grade.  The 2nd Class and 1st Class wore the same badge of the crown that you have over a bullion gun.

On the left below is the pre 1902 badge and on the right the post 1902 badge.  In full dress a gold cord cuff knot, collar trim and plaited shoulder epaulette similar to an officers, but surmounted by a bullion grenade was worn.

The 1st Class was one of the small exclusive group that made up the very highest rank, as warrant officers, below commissioned officer.  The top of the tree, alongside Conductors AOC, with whom they often worked in large garrisons and fortresses.  Rank backings were blue for undress and scarlet for full dress.

Edited 13 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[BMB]

Thank you again. That is very clear now.

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, BMB said:

Apologies to everybody for going off topic.

Not at all. Discussion of these strong military families and the roles of Senior NCOs is always of interest and is relevant to the 'strength' of the British Army during the Great War (and after!)

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, BMB said:

Thank you again. That is very clear now.

Well it’s clear from his Statement of Service that Henry Baker was very much a garrison artilleryman.  He started in the Western Division but then as part of a reorganisation switched to the Eastern Division spending most of his time and ending up on the Permanent Staff of the Suffolk Artillery Militia at Ipswich.  The unit became part of the Royal Garrison Artillery in 1902.

The Suffolk Artillery Militia had previously been the East Suffolk Light Infantry Militia, one of several infantry militia units converted to artillery across Britain.  The barracks changed over at the same time.

The artillery militia enrolment books up to 1889 still exist and so you should be able to trace Henry’s details there.  The National Archives Reference is: WO 68/357

There is also a photograph of Henry’s unit on parade directly in front of the old barracks for an inspection in 1905, and it might well be him among the small group in the foreground. 

Edited 13 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE